RECI Cert For Replacing An Electric Shower

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Personally I believe electric showers shouldn't be marketed as a DIY product or sold in DIY stores. It sends the wrong signal imo

DIY stores will always sell instantaneous showers because there is always a market for them, that's business. If DIY stores were somehow prevented from selling these units they would simply be sourced elsewhere, it solves nothing.

If the sale of these units is restricted to those that are deemed "suitably qualified" from an installation perspective not only would it be impossible to police, but it would encourage an instantaneous shower black market :D

EHP

2011 wrote: »

DIY stores will always sell instantaneous showers because there is always a market for them, that's business. If DIY stores were somehow prevented from selling these units they would simply be sourced elsewhere, it solves nothing.

If the sale of these units is restricted to those that are deemed "suitably qualified" from an installation perspective not only would it be impossible to police, but it would encourage an instantaneous shower black market :D

Alot of suppliers are now only selling gas parts to RGII guys nothing stopping showers and fuse board parts from being regulated to RECI members only. This will be more viable when the rules cover commercial and industrial as well.

2011

EHP wrote: »

Alot of suppliers are now only selling gas parts to RGII guys nothing stopping showers and fuse board parts from being regulated to RECI members only.

You are joking, right??

It is not the role of DIY stores or electrical wholesalers to police the sale of electrical components. Their aim is to sell to people that will pay, end of. They can have enough trouble getting paid from a small minority of RECs at times. It is unfair to expect them to turn away a cash paying customer.

Dublin is a one hour drive from the border with Northern Ireland, what is to stop someone driving up?? Will customs be searching cars for illegal electrical components?? :D:D

Instantaneous showers, MCBs, fuses, busbar and every electrical component imaginable can be bought on the internet, how do you prevent people buying these devices online??

This will be more viable when the rules cover commercial and industrial as well.

Not a chance.

I have placed orders for and taken delivery of distribution panels, VSDs, transformers, air circuit breakers etc.. for sizable contracts over the last few years. Are you seriously suggesting that I will no longer be able to do this on the basis that my company is not a REC?

EHP

2011 wrote: »

You are joking, right??

It is not the role of DIY stores or electrical wholesalers to police the sale of electrical components. Their aim is to sell to people that will pay, end of. They can have enough trouble getting paid from a small minority of RECs at times. It is unfair to expect them to turn away a cash paying customer.

Dublin is a one hour drive from the border with Northern Ireland, what is to stop someone driving up?? Will customs be searching cars for illegal electrical components?? :D:D

Instantaneous showers, MCBs, fuses, busbar and every electrical component imaginable can be bought on the internet, how do you prevent people buying these devices online??




Not a chance.

I have placed orders for and taken delivery of distribution panels, VSDs, transformers, air circuit breakers etc.. for sizable contracts over the last few years. Are you seriously suggesting that I will no longer be able to do this on the basis that my company is not a REC?

Heatmerchants/hevac currently wont sell gas parts to anyone who isn't RGII, other suppliers will of course but they have taken a stand on this and I think the rest will follow them if not the CER will probably make them.
All Im suggesting is that a Non REC shouldn't be able to purchase a shower for example, legally they cant install it in domestic and these rules will come into commercial etc eventually same as gas rules are currently being developed to be introduced to commercial and other areas. If your not a REC and ordering distribution panels etc for commercial and industrial at the moment thats allowed and why would you become a REC if only in these areas, but if the rules extend to cover these areas you should have to be a REC to purchase these. No Non REC should be able to purchase products that would require a REC to install but until the rules extend to all areas this would be impossible to control.
I do believe it is the role of DIY stores etc not to sell to people not legally able to use the products they are selling them but at the moment there is nothing stopping them.

Phil.x

EHP wrote: »

Under the current rules it is only domestic is affected for NON RECS all areas commercial, domestic and industrial are under these rules for RECS. What this means is a NON REC can work on a fuse board in a factory and not cert anything but legally cannot work on his own or any domestic fuse board where a REC can work on all fuse boards but has to cert all his Controlled or Restricted works in all industry's.

What do you mean "work on his own" as in self-employed or just working on his lonesome.

EHP

Phil.x wrote: »

What do you mean "work on his own" as in self-employed or just working on his lonesome.

I meant any NON REC cannot work on his fuse board in his home legally, so if your a qualified electrician but not registered you legally cant work on any fuse board in a domestic setting.

2011

EHP wrote: »

All Im suggesting is that a Non REC shouldn't be able to purchase a shower for example, legally they cant install it in domestic and these rules will come into commercial etc eventually same as gas rules are currently being developed to be introduced to commercial and other areas.

So how do you think this will be enforced based on the comments I made in my last post about proximity to Northern Ireland, and availability of components online??

No Non REC should be able to purchase products that would require an REC to install but until the rules extend to all areas this would be impossible to control.

My point is that it will always be impossible to control.

I do believe it is the role of DIY stores etc not to sell to people not legally able to use the products they are selling them but at the moment there is nothing stopping them.

Really? who will compensate these stores for loss of revenue, the tax payer?? What is to stop an unscrupulous REC or supplier from selling shower units to non-RECs at an inflated price??

Why should I not be able to purchase distribution boards, I design them?? Most of them are installed outside Ireland, if they are installed in Ireland it is by an REC. For contractual / tender / scheduling reasons we normally purchase the panels and free issue to the electrical contractor.

Phil.x

EHP wrote: »

I meant any NON REC cannot work on his fuse board in his home legally, so if your a qualified electrician but not registered you legally cant work on any fuse board in a domestic setting.

So basically the government wants all sparks to be self-employed or make the ones who are very rich through regulation, like the way taxis were in the past.

EHP

Phil.x wrote: »

So basically the government wants all sparks to be self-employed or make the ones who are very rich through regulation, like the way taxis were in the past.

ok so I wasnt 100% clear RECS or employees of RECs can complete restricted works but the REC has to cert this work as such making the REC responsible for the work. This is already a legal requirement has been since 2013, Safe Electric/CER are now starting to enforce these rules.

2011

@ EHP, I think you are getting confused. CER have no issue with non-RECs replacing instantaneous showers. They have made this very clear, so why restrict the sale of these units?

Edit: I was wrong, see post #49

EHP

2011 wrote: »

So how do you think this will be enforced based on the comments I made in my last post about proximity to Northern Ireland, and availability of components online??




My point is that it will always be impossible to control.



Really? who will compensate these stores for loss of revenue, the tax payer?? What is to stop an unscrupulous REC or supplier from selling shower units to non-RECs at an inflated price??

Why should I not be able to purchase distribution boards, I design them?? Most of them are installed outside Ireland, if they are installed in Ireland it is by an REC. For contractual / tender / scheduling reasons we normally purchase the panels and free issue to the electrical contractor.

Not every law is 100% enforceable doesn't mean it wouldn't have a positive effect on the industry again homeowners need to be held liable is the only way forward for this. What Im suggesting is Paddy down the road who is not a REC and is not within the industry shouldn't be able to buy products where only a REC can install. I dont believe DIY shops will close down over this but I could be wrong, I hope there not relying on showers and fuse board components to stay open.:):)
If your in the industry and not installing and just selling on the products to RECs or out of the country Im sure something would be in the rules for that.

Im not trying to put you out of a job just trying to suggest ways of stopping DIYers from interfering with Electrical Works not saying what I suggest is the best way just an option.

EHP

2011 wrote: »

@ EHP, I think you are getting confused. CER have no issue with non-RECs replacing instantaneous showers. They have made this very clear, so why restrict the sale of these units?

CER have made it very clear in there rules that Non RECs cannot work on the electrics in a shower as per the rule below taken direct from there document on Restricted works and as I have had confirmed direct from RECI. Rule 2 deals with Part 7 which covers areas around showers and baths. The CER will prosecute any Non REC found to have worked on the electrical side of a shower

Restricted Electrical Works will cover:

1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation
which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not
change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the
transmission network, as the case may be;

2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including
customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical
Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for
Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation,
including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits
on a Distribution Board; or

4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical
Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;

in a Domestic Property.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote: »

@ EHP, I think you are getting confused. CER have no issue with non-RECs replacing instantaneous showers. They have made this very clear, so why restrict the sale of these units?

This is what I wanted to hear when I started this thread but I thought it was proved earlier on in the thread that CER don't want us replacing electric showers anymore? I'd be very happy if you are right on this but I'm not sure you are

17larsson

Maybe it's not against regulations for a plumber to replace an electric shower but personally I don't like it. I could never install/replace/check a shower without doing a loop test on it, I don't think I could actually sleep at night if I didn't do that.
As competent as a plumber is and regardless of how many showers they have installed over the years I doubt many carry calibrated meters in their vans

EHP

It is illegal for any Non REC to work on the Electrical side of any shower in a domestic setting. A plumber cannot replace a shower without a REC if they do they are not only putting there customer at risk but are also putting themselves at risk of prosecution.

2011

EHP wrote: »

It is illegal for any Non REC to work on the Electrical side of any shower in a domestic setting. A plumber cannot replace a shower without a REC if they do they are not only putting there customer at risk but are also putting themselves at risk of prosecution.

That is incorrect.
Have a read of the Commission for Energy Regulation's Decision on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works .

The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or "DIY") electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves "like for like" replacements......

Also:

To summarise, the regulatory framework for electrical safety up to now before the introduction of Restricted Works involves the certification of Controlled Electrical Works (compulsory if completed by REC) and Minor Electrical Works (non-compulsory)......

Controlled electrical works require a REC. Like for like replacement of a shower doesn't fall under this definition. Controlled electrical works are defined by CER as:

Controlled Works are major electrical installation works (including additions, alterations and/or extensions) which are covered by the National Wiring Rules and which involve:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection, and testing of a new fixed electrical installation requiring connection or reconnection to the electricity network;
2. the installation or replacement of a Distribution Board or Consumer Unit, or new installation in special locations as defined in Part 7 of the National Wiring Rules ET101 and ET105;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more extra circuits in an existing installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a distribution board;
4. Subsystems installed in Commercial, Industrial, and Domestic installations where the installation falls within the remit of the National Wiring Rules;
5. the inspection, testing and certification of existing electrical installations (in accordance with Chapter 62 of the Wiring Rules (ET 101 ?Fourth Edition- 2008 and to conform with Regulation 89 of SI No 732 of 2007).

EHP

@2011 You are referring to controlled works which are works only recommended to be completed by a REC and if so the REC must cert. Restricted works are works that can only be legally completed by a REC and Part 7 is mentioned here also. It is illegal for any non REC to work on the electrical side of a shower in a domestic setting and the CER/Safe Electric will prosecute anyone found doing so.

2011

EHP wrote: »

It is illegal for any non REC to work on the electrical side of a shower in a domestic setting and the CER/Safe Electric will prosecute anyone found doing so.

I could not find anything to support this, so I rang CER this morning.
To my surprise you are correct because a bathroom is a "special location".
Other special locations include saunas, milking parlours and swimming pools. Only a REC may electrically connect a shower, light, fan or any other electrical appliance in a bathroom. The circuit supplying this device must then be retested.

So apologies EHP, you have highlighted something important. I will amend the forum charter to reflect this.

EHP

2011 wrote: »

I could not find anything to support this, so I rang CER this morning.
To my surprise you are correct because a bathroom is a "special location".
Other special locations include saunas, milking parlours and swimming pools. Only a REC may electrically connect a shower, light, fan or any other electrical appliance in a bathroom. The circuit supplying this device must then be retested.

Thanks for taking the time to contact the CER to clarify this issue for everyone.

2011 wrote: »

So apologies EHP, you have highlighted something important. I will amend the forum charter to reflect this.

No apologies needed here

Phil.x

2011 wrote: »

I could not find anything to support this, so I rang CER this morning.
To my surprise you are correct because a bathroom is a "special location".
Other special locations include saunas, milking parlours and swimming pools. Only a REC may electrically connect a shower, light, fan or any other electrical appliance in a bathroom. The circuit supplying this device must then be retested.

So apologies EHP, you have highlighted something important. I will amend the forum charter to reflect this.

Could a non rec sparks do this work and pay a rec sparks to cert it?

Sleeper12

Phil.x wrote:

Could a non rec sparks do this work and pay a rec sparks to cert it?

Technically I think the rec has to disconnect the cable and reconnect it to the shower. There's nothing stopping you fitting the actual shower yourself.
I don't think a rec can cert someone else's work. There's no difference in me or a rec connecting the cable to the shower. There's no suggestion that I've been doing it wrong for 30 years. The difference is that the rec can test it and confirm that it's safe right back to the fusebox. I'm prohibited by law from testing it.

2011

Phil.x wrote: »

Could a non rec sparks do this work and pay a rec sparks to cert it?

A REC is not permitted to certify someone else's work.
There is no legal way around this.

Electricman

Electricman wrote: »

Any work done on a distribution board and in special locations ie all work in areas listed in part 7 of the wiring rules must be carried out and certified by a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor)
Bathrooms come under part 7 and therefore it is clear that all works on an electric shower must be completed only by a REC.
Why would you not simply join RECI and become a REC. If the reason you won't join is because you are not an electrician then maybe you should not be carrying out electrical works.

See this link Section 2

http://www.safeelectric.ie/restrictedWorks.pdf

2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

Apologies due to me also 2011, I clearly pointed out this fact at the start of this thread and no one seems to have taken my reply on board.
You correctly did what I advised the OP to do a number of times and asked the CER to clarify if it was unlawful for a non REC to replace a electric shower.
It is also unlawful for a non REC to replace a pull cord isolation switch in the bathroom or in fact even to replace a bulb.

Sleeper12

I took your reply on board. It wasn’t the answer I wanted to hear but it was correct and helpful to me. Thank you for setting me in the right direction

Edit I emailed reci without res and emailed CER on Monday and waiting for a response. Phoning doesn't suit me as I want to engage in a few emails with cer. They are ok with us repairing showers apparently and if this is the case I need it in writing I'll try again next week.

kramer1

Seriously, a light bulb ? That can't be right?

Sleeper12

kramer1 wrote:

Seriously, a light bulb ? That can't be right?

It is but would love to see them bring someone to court for a bulb

2011

Electricman wrote: »

Apologies due to me also 2011, I clearly pointed out this fact at the start of this thread and no one seems to have taken my reply on board.

You were correct.
Unfortunately I don't get time to read every post.
Things are a bit hectic right now to put it mildly......

Sometimes things in posts just jump out at me so I respond. In this case it was the restriction of selling instantaneous shower units and other electrical components.

kramer1

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It is but would love to see them bring someone to court for a bulb

Not really the point. Why would anyone bring
in a law so ridiculous and unenforceable. And if people are free to ignore the bulb changing aspect of it then surely that just encourages them to ignore it all

Sleeper12

kramer1 wrote:

Not really the point. Why would anyone bring in a law so ridiculous and unenforceable. And if people are free to ignore the bulb changing aspect of it then surely that just encourages them to ignore it all

Got an email this morning saying not allowed to replace showers. Waiting for more information on repairs.

I just finished Reading this email when I got a call from my REC. He was at a safe electric road shower. Safe electric is RECI. He asked on my behalf about replacing showers. He told my REC that it's more of a grey area and that I'd be fine to carry on as I am.

I'm not for a second suggesting that my REC was given the correct advice. I only add it to the conversation too highlight the lack of knowledge and understanding of the law. Maybe some RECI guys can correct me but I am under the impression that it's RECI inspectors that do not the road show.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Got an email this morning saying not allowed to replace showers. Waiting for more information on repairs.

I just finished Reading this email when I got a call from my REC. He was at a safe electric road shower. Safe electric is RECI. He asked on my behalf about replacing showers. He told my REC that it's more of a grey area and that I'd be fine to carry on as I am.

I'm not for a second suggesting that my REC was given the correct advice. I only add it to the conversation too highlight the lack of knowledge and understanding of the law. Maybe some RECI guys can correct me but I am under the impression that it's RECI inspectors that do not the road show.

So the CER emailed to tell you plumbers cannot REPLACE electric showers?