Apartments - fire safety & structural issues

Maya1

I recently got sale agreed on apartment in Dublin. I pay booking deposit, organized survey etc .. only to find later in the process (by pure luck) that the apartment complex has serious structural and fire safety issues. It is also unlikely that bank would give a mortgage for this.
Estate agent and vendor didn't tell me anything.
I would strongly advise anyone who is looking to buy an apartment to ring management company before even bidding and check if there are any problems.
It looks like a lot of apartment built after 2000 have all sorts of issues.

embracingLife

Maya1 wrote: »

I recently got sale agreed on apartment in Dublin. I pay booking deposit, organized survey etc .. only to find later in the process (by pure luck) that the apartment complex has serious structural and fire safety issues. It is also unlikely that bank would give a mortgage for this.
Estate agent and vendor didn't tell me anything.
I would strongly advise anyone who is looking to buy an apartment to ring management company before even bidding and check if there are any problems.
It looks like a lot of apartment built after 2000 have all sorts of issues.

This is all part of the buying process. Your solicitor will contact the management agent and they are legally required to tell you-the buyer-everything about the building.

Note: The management agent are the people employed to maintain the building. The management company consists of all the owners collectively who altogether own the building and apts etc.

Ringing the management agent before you bid will get you NOwhere! You are any Tom,Dick or Harry ringing up-they are NOT required to tell strangers about the building! They are employed by the individual apartment owners to manage the building on their behalf and are paid to do that by the members and part of that is not to discuss the building with strangers!

Yes I know it sucks you paid deposit, surveys etc but then again the fault in your case would with your solicitor for not asking the right questions from the management agent. How you found out about the issues with the building-as you said by pure luck- is down to your solicitor not doing their job right.

I've been there,done that.

Maya1

Solcitor ringing management company comes later in the process. At that pont - maybe I am allready packed and gave notice to my landolord?
I talked to management company and they told me about the problems. It is not a secret.

You are saying estate agents should hide this significant information? And the bank would not give mortgage anyway.

EA should have disclosed issues.

syndrome777

Maya1 wrote: »

Solcitor ringing management company comes later in the process. At that pont - maybe I am allready packed and gave notice to my landolord?
I talked to management company and they told me about the problems. It is not a secret.

You are saying estate agents should hide this significant information? And the bank would not give mortgage anyway.

EA should have disclosed issues.

a whole lot of thing should be more transparent. Same as they have BER it would make life easier if seller or EA did surveying so you know what you are buying. And not have every single buyer has to do one, and then you are far in the process and you find things to prevent you from buying because seller or agents are trying to hide things.
Also this info on fire and safety. Also the info if the seller has the agreement from bank to sell. and whole lot of other things. All this cat and mouse games are just nerve wrecking.

I know its utopian view but it would just make more sense.

wordofwarning

IMO we need declarations like they have in some states of the US. In some states you need to declare that some died in the house x years ago, there is lead paint/asbestos, etc etc. If the seller knows from the management company that building has serious issues, it should not just be buyer beware. They should be forced to tell you that there is serious buyer defects.

I know of a house for sale where the sale has fallen through twice due to bad legal documents on the house. The house is now labelled as cash only. IMO the estate agent by law should have to tell buyers at viewing that title is bad and it is very much buyer beware.

So much time and money is being wasted on people only discovering on closing that the title is bad, that the fire certs are non-existent. The Estate Agent told tell you at the viewing all of this rather than you wasting thousands on legal fees, surveys etc and several months to discover you don't want to buy the property with all these issues

Maya1

This one has severe structural and fire safety issues. Both in the apartments and common areas.
I think survey companies should have a list of all affected buildings and warn the clients in advance. For example this issue is known for 2 years
My survey only found a few minor problems, and they are well covered by t&c, they only check basic things.

Last week there was another apartment on myhome from the same complex. This EA put "Cash only" as a warning in the first sentence. This is different EA and much more professional. "My" apartment still does not say anything, I hope whoever looks will open the other add as well.

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Samuel T. Cogley

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Just for anyone reading this the above can't be overstated, neither can: have a back up once contracts are signed because delays happen. Furthermore, know what you alternates are even on the day of moving - title issues can cop up very late in the day among other things.

Real property transactions are a completely different animal to chattels (things that aren't land) and people should always bear that in mind. No one likes paying at LL an extra month's rent but try 'Just In Time' house buying at your peril.

Maya1

It is not the point am I packed or not. Even finding much earlier, I have already wasted a lot of time and energy and 500e for survey. You think it is ok?

Samuel T. Cogley

Maya1 wrote: »

It is not the point am I packed or not. Even finding much earlier, I have already wasted a lot of time and energy and 500e for survey. You think it is ok?

No but that's a different point to being packed. People tend to pick up on hyberbole.

The whole survey issue needs an overhaul, you used to be able to 'buy' the survey of a property in Scotland if one had been done previously. Now there are draw backs to doing this, but it gave people the choice at least.

Frankly I'd like to see EA's made a bit more independent of the purchaser and a survey be part of the selling process, along with a title check, but there we go. You'll see from the flaming I get for that one the counter arguments.

Furthermore Guzumping and Guzundering should be stamped out a la Scotland.

To be frank though absolutely none of this is going to be addressed in the current climate and that doesn't make it right, just the realality of the situation if you're buying in Ireland.

Toots

Unfortunately that's the nature of property buying in terms of surveys. Now if the estate agents knew about the problems he should have disclosed them, although I'm not sure what the legal position on that is. If it's a certain South Dublin apartment block, there's been a lot in the media lately about the remedial works that need to be done for fire safety. There are still loads of them online and I'm surprised if anyone's buying them.

In terms of surveys, I know a couple who have walked away from 2 houses due to issues discovered in surveys. They were out €500+ each time but better that than but the place without a survey and discover there's thousands of Euro of work needed.

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Maya1

It is not "certain South Dublin apartment block" from the front page of Irish Times, but is near ...

It is different when you pay for the survey and the survey finds the problems. Then it is money very well spent. In my case survey didn't find anything.

Apartment complex exists for about 10 years, but the problems are found 2 years ago. You can not find anything online, but management company will say there are serious issues and that banks are not giving mortgages.
There are only 2 apartments sold in the last 2 years, but I didn't have a clue why.
EA is not leagally obliged to tell but they should have.
I believe lots of apartments built around 2005-2007 have all sorts of issues...

Maya1

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However, I'd rather be out 500 euro on a survey than be told I had to stump up 50k on remediation works because the builder was long gone and homebond didn't cover it.

I repeat - survey only found minor issues. I would not mind to pay for the survey if it points out there are problems. Survey only covers basic things. I also believe survey company should have a list of affected buildings and warn clients in advance.

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Maya1

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It would have come out before you went sale agreed. They wouldn't have been able to produce certificates of compliance for your solicitor when he requested them.

A lot of time wasting for you though.

There may be a plan in place to fix the issues, they may be waiting on an insurance pay out or something.

Yes waste of time. There is no certainty about when issues will be fixed, or who will pay. But EAs and vendors should be honest about this. Very unprofessional.
And survey companies also should know about these buildings. Only some of them are on the front page of Irish Times.

caviardreams

Maya1 wrote: »

It is not "certain South Dublin apartment block" from the front page of Irish Times, but is near ...

It is different when you pay for the survey and the survey finds the problems. Then it is money very well spent. In my case survey didn't find anything.

Apartment complex exists for about 10 years, but the problems are found 2 years ago. You can not find anything online, but management company will say there are serious issues and that banks are not giving mortgages.
There are only 2 apartments sold in the last 2 years, but I didn't have a clue why.
EA is not leagally obliged to tell but they should have.
I believe lots of apartments built around 2005-2007 have all sorts of issues...

I see they have that listed on two apartments in two different blocks in the same development.

I don't think it's fair to tar all newer apartments with the same brush imo. It totally depends on the developer etc. Also, as pointed out, whilst it is frustrating as a potential buyer, you can't expect that kind of information to be publicly broadcast by the owner's management company - think how you would feel if you were an owner?

Maya1

I don't expect to be publicly broadcasted. But I do expect estate agents to tell potential buyers in advance. There is huge difference.
p.s . I am not saying anything about management company. They were very honest and professional in my opinion. I am talking about estate agents who are not professional.

Toots

I suppose the lesson to take away from this is that it pays to do your research - if you're interested in an apartment get in touch with the management company and suss out any issues like this before putting in any offers. I think in the ideal world, estate agents would be upfront with potential issues with properties, but in my experience that often isn't the case.

Maya1

Toots wrote: »

I suppose the lesson to take away from this is that it pays to do your research - if you're interested in an apartment get in touch with the management company and suss out any issues like this before putting in any offers. I think in the ideal world, estate agents would be upfront with potential issues with properties, but in my experience that often isn't the case.

Exactly ☺ This will save some time & money.

Victor

Maya1 wrote: »

Estate agent and vendor didn't tell me anything.

They don't work for you and it's not their job.

Maya1

Victor wrote: »

They don't work for you and it's not their job.

It is not their job, but it is not fair. What is the purpose to hide so important information?

athtrasna

Maya1 wrote: »

It is not their job, but it is not fair. What is the purpose to hide so important information?

They're not hiding it, they're just not publicising it. It's up to potential buyers to do their research. People get car checks done for €5k cars. Due diligence is vital for an asset likely to cost six figures!

Victor

Toots wrote: »

Unfortunately that's the nature of property buying in terms of surveys. Now if the estate agents knew about the problems he should have disclosed them, although I'm not sure what the legal position on that is.

They can puff things up, but they can't lie.

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Maya1

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The issues are serious = bank would not give a mortgage for them.

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Maya1

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Yes. I wrote this thread to let people know to do research in advance to avoid waste of time, money and lots of energy. I heard there are other apartments blocks like this.

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Cookie_Monster

If they have these issues why are they even allowed be sold, or lived in currently?

Mellor

Maya1 wrote: »

It is not the point am I packed or not. Even finding much earlier, I have already wasted a lot of time and energy and 500e for survey. You think it is ok?

What kind of survey?

Maya1 wrote: »

I repeat - survey only found minor issues. I would not mind to pay for the survey if it points out there are problems. Survey only covers basic things. I also believe survey company should have a list of affected buildings and warn clients in advance.

You are suggesting that every building with a structural or regulation issue to alerts every surveyor in the country. Do you really think that's manageable?

Maya1 wrote: »

I am talking about estate agents who are not professional.

The estate agents are a professional employed by the vendor. It would actually be unprofessional from the vendors point of view if they were to actively work against the sale. As you said, the information wasn't a secret. It's up to you to do your checks.