Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

There'd be a lot more dead for starters. There would have been no lockdowns and we would have been like Italy at the start of the pandemic.

Nobody would have vaccines.

Hospitals would have run out of PPE.

Sick people would be coming to work infecting everyone else as there'd be no pandemic payment or business supports.

Now maybe most people would have herd immunity by now but we can't say that for sure.

Basically I think we'd be worse off than we are.

OR we'd be like Sweden, which has had no tremendous difference in their annual death rates between 201 and 2020
But then we may be dont do civic responsibility well.


https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-cases-idUSL8N2KH694

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

While I agree with all that you said I'd just like to comment on health. Apart from all the people that are going to suffer/die due to procedures being pushed back or cancelled, there is a strong correlation between GDP per capita and life expectancy. Ya can't shaft the economy and not expect an effect on the health system.

As well as this the skewing of statistics on how people are dying.
Case in point,the bettr halfs father died last week on Monday morning at 85.
He had stage 4 cancer, had contracted Covid in ULH, but had fully recovered from it according to the Docs, was starting radium treatment back in his local hospital in Ennis[Much too late to matter IMO] and died of heart failure in the end in the hospital.
What's on the death cert? Covid positive and heart failure.:rolleyes:
Seriously??? Reckon if you came into the morgue with your head removed by a shotgun blast they would put down you died by .from.of Covid.:rolleyes:

riffmongous

tudderone wrote: »

I wonder how many businesses and therefore jobs will be lost through all this ? The hospitality and tourism sector is going to be in a right mess. Pubs, hotels, etc that will have to wrap up and call it a day. The whole thing is a mess. The only ones to make money out of it , Ironically and annoyingly is the ones who caused it in the first place, the Chinese.

The likes of Amazon have done pretty well out of it too, as will the pharma companies when it's all over

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As well as this the skewing of statistics on how people are dying.
Case in point,the bettr halfs father died last week on Monday morning at 85.
He had stage 4 cancer, had contracted Covid in ULH, but had fully recovered from it according to the Docs, was starting radium treatment back in his local hospital in Ennis[Much too late to matter IMO] and died of heart failure in the end in the hospital.
What's on the death cert? Covid positive and heart failure.:rolleyes:
Seriously??? Reckon if you came into the morgue with your head removed by a shotgun blast they would put down you died by .from.of Covid.:rolleyes:

Ah, condolences Grizz.

On the death cert side:
Wasn't there some chap who fell off a ladder and was listed as a covid death?
And I remember reading something about HIQA saying the number of covid deaths was way overestimated, and Leo agreeing with them since Ireland counts covid deaths as including "may have" had covid, even without a test.
And reportedly some, like your good lady's father evidently, who had been positive and recovered, died and subsequently listed as a covid death.

Inflating the numbers to justify the narrative.

Bit like the guards and their breath test numbers, I wonder how accurate the cases count is :P

riffmongous

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Finally at a certain point Ireland will become even less viable than it was for everyone who has a transferable skillset and they will start looking at other countries to escape to.

Personally I've been planning leaving Ireland for a myriad of reasons before all this hit.
Now those plans are accelerating and I am aiming to get out as soon as I can.

And I can tell you, that is a prevailing opinion among younger people.

Where to though? It's the same uncertainty and vague sense of hopelessness for the immediate future across most of Europe from what I can see and hear. The places where they really have it under control like NZ and Aus won't be taking in people for the next while either as then it'll pretty quickly get out of control. The UK and US have their own issues at the moment at the moment too

otmmyboy2

riffmongous wrote: »

Where to though? It's the same uncertainty and vague sense of hopelessness for the immediate future across most of Europe from what I can see and hear. The places where they really have it under control like NZ and Aus won't be taking in people for the next while either as then it'll pretty quickly get out of control. The UK and US have their own issues at the moment at the moment too

I'll preface this by saying the first part is what was related to me, not my own opinions.

I'll also say the reasons for this migration desire among my peers & I extends past the current restrictions and includes the likely outcome of all these restrictions, another depression, higher taxes in an already extremely expensive country, worsening services, etc.
Several are also alarmed at the proposed amendment to the constitution here that deals a severe blow to private property.

With that said here goes-
Most countries are perceived to be better than Ireland in regards to covid restrictions, so the other factors(immigration, economy, lifestyle, cost of living, climate, taxation, schooling, etc) are really the deciders.

Most popular destinations:
USA(v popular but unlikely due to US immigration),
Canada(I'll go into my details below),
Australia & NZ(popular, even with their covid policies),
Dubai/UAE(exceedingly popular recently, taxes & benefits hard to pass up),

Other EU countries - Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Sweden (Better standard of living, in a lot of cases cheaper than here, significantly better once you are on the higher tax brackets here).

Now my take -
Canada is about the most likely.
Similar politics to here in the Eastern part(Ontario eastwards). You know what I mean here, crony capitalism is the name of the game, but more conservative in the prairies.
CCFR is a pretty good messaging org, and their firearms restrictions are arguably better than here, by a decent margin. Present liberal gun ban remains to be seen. Between the CCFR and Conservative party(the other main Canadian party) firearms prospects look decent there.
Work prospects are decent, better earnings in my industry than here by a good bit, less taxation, less federal level economic/social restrictions than here so pick your province by your politics and you'll feel pretty at home.
Immigration based economy, far from a doddle to get in but definitely doable(unlike the US currently where you are stuck with the marriage, relative or currently very hard to get and renew work permit routes).
Decent schooling & education system, health system is far from perfect but less decrepit than ours.
Depending on location spending 3 months of the year in the US visa free would be an attractive prospect if the snow & cold gets too much.

tudderone

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

I'll preface this by saying the first part is what was related to me, not my own opinions.

I'll also say the reasons for this migration desire among my peers & I extends past the current restrictions and includes the likely outcome of all these restrictions, another depression, higher taxes in an already extremely expensive country, worsening services, etc.
Several are also alarmed at the proposed amendment to the constitution here that deals a severe blow to private property.

With that said here goes-
Most countries are perceived to be better than Ireland in regards to covid restrictions, so the other factors(immigration, economy, lifestyle, cost of living, climate, taxation, schooling, etc) are really the deciders.

Most popular destinations:
USA(v popular but unlikely due to US immigration),
Canada(I'll go into my details below),
Australia & NZ(popular, even with their covid policies),
Dubai/UAE(exceedingly popular recently, taxes & benefits hard to pass up),

Other EU countries - Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Sweden (Better standard of living, in a lot of cases cheaper than here, significantly better once you are on the higher tax brackets here).

Now my take -
Canada is about the most likely.
Similar politics to here in the Eastern part(Ontario eastwards). You know what I mean here, crony capitalism is the name of the game, but more conservative in the prairies.
CCFR is a pretty good messaging org, and their firearms restrictions are arguably better than here, by a decent margin. Present liberal gun ban remains to be seen. Between the CCFR and Conservative party(the other main Canadian party) firearms prospects look decent there.
Work prospects are decent, better earnings in my industry than here by a good bit, less taxation, less federal level economic/social restrictions than here so pick your province by your politics and you'll feel pretty at home.
Immigration based economy, far from a doddle to get in but definitely doable(unlike the US currently where you are stuck with the marriage, relative or currently very hard to get and renew work permit routes).
Decent schooling & education system, health system is far from perfect but less decrepit than ours.
Depending on location spending 3 months of the year in the US visa free would be an attractive prospect if the snow & cold gets too much.

Ireland has always been run for the better off and a clique at the top. You just have to look at the corruption of the 70's 80's to see that, Haughey and his "donors". All living high on the hog while the country was in the same mess as Albania under the communists. Things have gotten better, but we put up with too much crap from the eu, all this green rubbish.

Lads i knew in the 80's working hard here and getting nowhere, leaving for the states or Australia, or Canada, and suddenly things taking off for them, good standard of living, could buy a decent house, good car, etc. I was asking one lad at the gunclub who was home from Canada would he ever come back for good, he laughed and said "come back to what".

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

would he ever come back for good, he laughed and said "come back to what".

Haha, that about sums it up honestly.

The only folks I know who aren't considering leaving are those already entrenched(owns their house, inheriting the farm, immovable job, family ties, etc).

Mind you, of that even the "inheriting the farm" folks are looking at Canada's "come farm here" immigration visas & grants and being sorely tempted to scoot.

The only downside for me and mine would be leaving family, since neither of us have any in Canada, but apart from that there is nothing really keeping us here.

My pre-2017 restricted CF licence notwithstanding :P

Grizzly 45

I can concur at wanting to get out of here. My biggest mistake once getting out of Ireland was coming back here, but the duty to your family comes first.:rolleyes:

Would I go back stateside...Hell yes,but at this stage and hitting the "55-speed limit " in age next month, I'm getting a bit old to be running and starting again.:)

If I was doing it again in my 20s...Once you are out...Stay the fuk away from here!:eek:
There is really nothing worth coming back to Ireland for even now!
We pay over the odds for everything here and get very little in return.You are literally just "paying the bills" and keep in a roof over your head. And God help you if you should fail in a busisness here as a little guy...You'll be doing the Creasi Lannister naked walk of shame thru the streets here. Unless you are in with the right crowd in the golf club and Dail.
We are insular, parochial and choking of innovation, and will always be led by the best Gombeens and local road fixers, who no doubt taught us in primary or secondary school and then became TDs:rolleyes:

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

and will always be led by the best Gombeens and local road fixers, who no doubt taught us in primary or secondary school and then became TDs:rolleyes:

Sadly a reflection on the world stage, not just here.
Canada has a drama teacher as their PM.

Mind you, quite synergistic for a politician's job when you think about it :rolleyes:

BattleCorp

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that the perpetual lockdowns are just prolonging the deaths that otherwise would have occurred faster, but occurred nonetheless.

I'm quite happy prolonging the time between now and my death.

I agree with what you have said, but I don't see that the Government had much choice other than to lockdown. Yes, there are negatives and the lockdown will cause deaths too, but I think the lockdown is the lesser of two evils.

Personally I've been planning leaving Ireland for a myriad of reasons before all this hit.
Now those plans are accelerating and I am aiming to get out as soon as I can.

And I can tell you, that is a prevailing opinion among younger people.

Where are you going to go? Choices are limited as many other countries are in as deep sh1t as we are.

tudderone

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm quite happy prolonging the time between now and my death.

I agree with what you have said, but I don't see that the Government had much choice other than to lockdown. Yes, there are negatives and the lockdown will cause deaths too, but I think the lockdown is the lesser of two evils.



Where are you going to go? Choices are limited as many other countries are in as deep sh1t as we are.

But better run, by people who aren't primary school teachers or village gobsh1tes looking for a nice little earner and a nice fat pension.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As well as this the skewing of statistics on how people are dying.

There was a scandal in England and not so much a scandal but a "revision" here too, last year.

The "scandal" in England was people testing positive were being marked down as Covid deaths even if they died from other causes and MONTHS later. Oxford apparently copped this. They [Gov] changed it to only include deaths within 28 days of testing positive which is still skewered data as the death did not have to be as a result of Covid but if the person tested positive within the previous 28 it was marked as Covid positive - "Cause" on the death certificate.

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

Ireland has always been run for the better off and a clique at the top. You just have to look at the corruption of the 70's 80's to see that, Haughey and his "donors". All living high on the hog while the country was in the same mess as Albania under the communists. Things have gotten better, but we put up with too much crap from the eu, all this green rubbish.

Lads i knew in the 80's working hard here and getting nowhere, leaving for the states or Australia, or Canada, and suddenly things taking off for them, good standard of living, could buy a decent house, good car, etc. I was asking one lad at the gunclub who was home from Canada would he ever come back for good, he laughed and said "come back to what".

It's not all doom and gloom, I know plenty lads and lassies that are doing very well for themselves in Ireland despite having a less than perfect start in life.

There's no secret to being successful, you just have to have a vision of what you want and a hard work ethic. Sometimes a hard work ethic alone will lead to success.

Most of the people who complain the loudest about how bad a place Ireland is to live would complain in other countries too if they could just manage to get up off mammy and daddy's couch and get out and try make a life for themselves and make a positive contribution to society.

Cass

I removed my previous post as its unfair to discuss something that was deleted. So its gone as is the reference the now deleted post.

BattleCorp wrote: »

I agree with what you have said, but I don't see that the Government had much choice other than to lockdown. Yes, there are negatives and the lockdown will cause deaths too, but I think the lockdown is the lesser of two evils.

An article from 4 weeks ago. Read down it carefully and note the comments made by Tony holohan on the continued influx of tourists and visitors with 2,200 recently traveling from BRazil, no checks at the airport, no enforcement of quarantine and only 40% presenting for "mandatory" checks with a 10% positive rate among those.

In his own words "it borders on criminal".

Its not just Brazil. Flights from South Africa are also allowed in. So tell me again how the Government are choosing the lesser of two evils by locking down its own citizens and ignoring basic travel bans other countries have imposed and are seeing the benefits off and then tell me how we'd be worse of without the Government.

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

I removed my previous post as its unfair to discuss something that was deleted. So its gone as is the reference the now deleted post.

An article from 4 weeks ago. Read down it carefully and note the comments made by Tony holohan on the continued influx of tourists and visitors with 2,200 recently traveling from BRazil, no checks at the airport, no enforcement of quarantine and only 40% presenting for "mandatory" checks with a 10% positive rate among those.

In his own words "it borders on criminal".

Its not just Brazil. Flights from South Africa are also allowed in. So tell me again how the Government are choosing the lesser of two evils by locking down its own citizens and ignoring basic travel bans other countries have imposed and are seeing the benefits off and then tell me how we'd be worse of without the Government.

That’s fairly sickening, it almost drew my out of my apathy to politics but then I realised the futility of it all and sunk back down.

BattleCorp

I genuinely can't remember what I was typing. Must have been a brain fart if I deleted it almost as soon as I wrote it.

Cass wrote: »

the continued influx of tourists and visitors with 2,200 recently traveling from BRazil, no checks at the airport, no enforcement of quarantine and only 40% presenting for "mandatory" checks with a 10% positive rate among those.

So tell me again how the Government are choosing the lesser of two evils by locking down its own citizens and ignoring basic travel bans other countries have imposed and are seeing the benefits off and then tell me how we'd be worse of without the Government.

My 'lesser of two evils' comment was in relation to either having a lockdown or not having a lockdown, and not about a travel ban. Both options have negatives.......but my thinking is that having a lockdown is less harmful than not having a lockdown.

Yes, the Government should have had travel bans/enforced testing/isolation etc. etc. etc. But that's not to say we shouldn't have our own lockdown for our own citizens as that also lowers the risk of transmission. Both of those things should be happening.

Having only one of those things in place is better than having none of them in place.

But back to your point earlier, yes, the Government could certainly have done much more.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

My 'lesser of two evils' comment was in relation to either having a lockdown or not having a lockdown, and not about a travel ban. Both options have negatives.......but my thinking is that having a lockdown is less harmful than not having a lockdown.

But we don't have a lockdown, not when people are coming into the country by their thousands and worse still from places that most other countries have banned because of the threat they pose.

As was implied in the article most of those visitors are seasonal workers in meat plants and other sectors. None of which is reason to allow them entry.

But that's not to say we shouldn't have our own lockdown for our own citizens as that also lowers the risk of transmission.

And what possible use is it when thousands, remember that, are flying in weekly and spreading not on the original Covid strain but two of the worse variants.

The stupidity in this decision making has to be purposeful because i dread to think that any politician in their right mind genuinely seen no harm/danger in this.

Both of those things should be happening.

But they're not. So again i'll ask, what use is the Government when they willfully lock up their own for "our protection" then allow in thousands with a new, deadlier strain. Is that for our protection too? (sarcasm btw, not actually expecting a reply to that.)

Having only one of those things in place is better than having none of them in place.

No, i'm sorry, its not. Its sticking your finger in the hole of the titanic made by the iceberg and singing "we're not sinking".

But back to your point earlier, yes, the Government could certainly have done much more.

In a year they continue, and i stress that bit continue, to f**k things up on a weekly basis. I have no respect for Tony Holohan. However when even he says the Governments action are bordering on criminal, how exactly can anyone defend or even try to defend their actions.

You listed off some point at the top of this page and i replied to most/each one but can you point me to what the Government have gotten right on this?

I've spent the better part of 6 hours watchin Johnson on SKY news and the commentators after him, discussing the plans to slowly re-open the UK. In Europe churches are open and most countries are eyeing up slow re-opening.

What is our lot doing?

Lockdown for 9 more weeks, possibly, for everyone with businesses shut for at least another 4 months and the vaccine roll out in approx. the next two years.

civdef

tudderone wrote: »

But better run, by people who aren't primary school teachers or village gobsh1tes looking for a nice little earner and a nice fat pension.

The sad part is they really aren't for the most part.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

But we don't have a lockdown, not when people are coming into the country by their thousands and worse still from places that most other countries have banned because of the threat they pose.

It's impossible here in Ireland to have a full 100% lockdown unless we do as the Chinese did and weld people into their apartment blocks. And I'm sure plenty of Chinese died because of that practice too. Essential workers/services/supply chains have to be kept moving.

But I accept your point that the Government could have done better. Testing/isolation/travel restrictions should have been in place ages ago.

As was implied in the article most of those visitors are seasonal workers in meat plants and other sectors. None of which is reason to allow them entry.

I agree with you. The Government disagree with both of us, as was seen with the Keelings plane from Bulgaria.

And what possible use is it when thousands, remember that, are flying in weekly and spreading not on the original Covid strain but two of the worse variants.

You are making it sound like it is only Brazilians/foreigners spreading the virus. We (the Irish) are spreading it too. By having a lockdown movement restrictions inside Ireland, we are reducing the transmission of the virus. If we had no movement restrictions, we'd have a much higher rate of infection.

No, i'm sorry, its not. Its sticking your finger in the hole of the titanic made by the iceberg and singing "we're not sinking".

Are you saying that because we didn't/dont have adequate international travel restrictions/isolation/testing that we shouldn't have a lockdown?

I'll bring it back to a shooting analogy. There's three golden rules for gun safety. Why three? Why not just one? Because each of those three actions when taken alone makes it less likely that someone will get shot. Do all three together and it's safer than just doing one. That's my point for the lockdown. A partial lockdown slows transmission. A full lockdown (travel ban etc.) makes transmission even slower. That's my point. A partial lockdown is better than no lockdown.

Genuine question. Do you think we should abandon having 'our version' of the lockdown? What do you think will happen if we abandon our lockdown, open up the pubs/shops/clubs and pretend like there is no virus?

You listed off some point at the top of this page and i replied to most/each one but can you point me to what the Government have gotten right on this?

Our hospitals never got overrun with COVID-19 patients. Yes, that may be at the expense of other non-COVID-19 patients but that's the same in every country dealing with COVID-19.

The Government advised companies to let people who can work from, to work from home. I'll use my employer as an example. We normally have 200+ people in head office (I'm one of them). Because we were all sent to work from home almost a year ago (on Government advice), the transmission rate in head office was zero. Same for an awful lot of companies.

The virus was pretty much kept out of our prisons, unlike many other countries.

I've spent the better part of 6 hours watchin Johnson on SKY news and the commentators after him, discussing the plans to slowly re-open the UK. In Europe churches are open and most countries are eyeing up slow re-opening.

I wouldn't be holding up the UK as a shining light when it comes to COVID-19 management. They mismanaged it every bit as much as we did. The only redeeming feature for them is that they are lashing out the vaccine now.

Lockdown for 9 more weeks, possibly, for everyone with businesses shut for at least another 4 months and the vaccine roll out in approx. the next two years.

We can blame ourselves as much as the Government for how long the lockdown is going on. Every fcuking gobsh1te who went on the lash, queued on top of someone else in the queue for Pennys, who passed around a bottle of vodka at a Christmas party, who passed around a spliff on New Years Eve, who hugged granny, who went to a funeral with 400 other people when the limit said 10 people etc. is to blame for the length of this lockdown.

Quite simply, if we effectively socially distanced, we would be out of this lockdown a good while ago.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

You are making it sound like it is only Brazilians/foreigners spreading the virus.

They are, or were, the only ones bringing it in and spreading it as it's from Brazil and our Government did not impose a ban on travel from Brazil. I also mentioned South Africa as those two countries have been listed as the sources of the two new variants with, apparently, a more virulent strain.

Are you saying that because we didn't/dont have adequate international travel restrictions/isolation/testing that we shouldn't have a lockdown?

Nope. However i'm also saying that imposing one of the worst lockdowns in Europe on "your own" and not doing a thing to prevent the virus, or its variants, being brought in by unregulated visitors is asinine. IOW the national lockdown is somewhat redundant and cases will stay at a certain level as long as proper restriction are not put in place.

Genuine question. Do you think we should abandon having 'our version' of the lockdown?

To an extent, not fully though. However its not as simple as full lockdown or no lockdown.

What do you think will happen if we abandon our lockdown, open up the pubs/shops/clubs and pretend like there is no virus?

Cases will rise. but i'm not advocating for a full re-opening.

Our hospitals never got overrun with COVID-19 patients.

53,000 without beds last year, 4,000 nurses with covid, and only recently Prof. Paul Ridgeway said that in recent weeks hospitals have been effectively overrun.

The Government advised companies to let people who can work from, to work from home.

They didn't advise, they made it happen with the lockdown(s). Unless you were/are essential worker you had to stay at home and for those who could work at home, to do so.

The virus was pretty much kept out of our prisons, unlike many other countries.

I live in the midlands. Only this week the Midlands prison have announced a Covid outbreak among staff and inmates. Back in January he same thing about 8 were tested positive in one prison and 4 more in another. Back in December, same prison, staff tested positive but oddly no prisoners which meant in January the staff brought it in and spread it. In October, Midlands again, 5 prisoners tested positive.

The reason i bring this up is because in November the Justice website praised the IPS for having 0 (zero) rates of positive covid tests among prisoners! So what is going on?

I wouldn't be holding up the UK as a shining light when it comes to COVID-19 management.

]Wouldn't enter my mind and i knew their infection rate and death would be brought up.

They mismanaged it every bit as much as we did.

Correct

The only redeeming feature for them is that they are lashing out the vaccine now.

Exactly.

What are "we" doing? The same tried and failed old thing. Lockdown and three Hail Marys'. :rolleyes:

We can blame ourselves as much as the Government for how long the lockdown is going on.

I don't disagree. People have a responsibility here too, but from what i've seen locally and with the likes of yourself and others taking such a strong position on it i'd say those types are the exception, not the rule. Only an opinion, 've no data to prove it either way.

Quite simply, if we effectively socially distanced, we would be out of this lockdown a good while ago.

How?

• Cheltenham last year.
• Italian Rugby fans
• Visitors and tourists STILL coming in to this day
• Seasonal workers
• Clusters in meat plants and other factories (which had inspections stopped quicker than they began)

To name just a handful. How can this virus be controlled by locking up ourselves but not restricting or regulating visitors, tourists, workers from abroad?

Cass

BTW if the above is too long.

Not against lockdowns, just as long as they're appropriate and functional, coupled with other aspects such as travel restrictions coming INTO the country.

civdef

I still can't get my head around what the actual problem is that the government are having getting their heads around proper international travel restrictions.

All the 5km restrictions etc we have now would have been unthinkable 12 months ago- but they're somehow doable while mandatory quarantine from abroad isn't?

tudderone

civdef wrote: »

I still can't get my head around what the actual problem is that the government are having getting their heads around proper international travel restrictions.

All the 5km restrictions etc we have now would have been unthinkable 12 months ago- but they're somehow doable while mandatory quarantine from abroad isn't?

+1. There is an even more dangerous version of covid coming from Brazil and South Africa. So if you are coming from there, then either sorry you cannot come in, or go into quarantine for a month until we are sure you are not infected. I don't see the problem at all

otmmyboy2

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm quite happy prolonging the time between now and my death.

I agree with what you have said, but I don't see that the Government had much choice other than to lockdown. Yes, there are negatives and the lockdown will cause deaths too, but I think the lockdown is the lesser of two evils.

Disagree.

Can you spot the theme here?
Cases go down: government measures are working!
Cases go up: some people are breaking the rules! Cue demonisation of group chosen by magic 8 ball.
Cases stay the same: It would be worse if we did nothing! :rolleyes:

The data is there to be seen, places with less restrictions have not fared any worse regarding covid, and their economies are not in the tank.

Just like no is a valid answer, not repeatedly doing the same thing hoping for different results is certainly an option.
And increasing penalties is not going to help matters either, and hasn't in other countries where that has already been done.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Where are you going to go? Choices are limited as many other countries are in as deep sh1t as we are.

As said above, Canada.
US would be my preference but immigration wise it isn't likely to happen, so little America in a westerly province it is.

Put it this way, before covid Canada was a likely choice, now their economy has suffered less than ours so they are more attractive than before.
The gap has only widened.

Rows Grower wrote: »

It's not all doom and gloom, I know plenty lads and lassies that are doing very well for themselves in Ireland despite having a less than perfect start in life.

Agree, it is not. I know some folks who are perfectly happy to stay here.
However, while you have mobility and are not tied down I don't see why you shouldn't want to position yourself in the best place you could.
If for some that is here then good luck to them, if it is elsewhere then good luck to them too!

Rows Grower wrote: »

Most of the people who complain the loudest about how bad a place Ireland is to live would complain in other countries too if they could just manage to get up off mammy and daddy's couch and get out and try make a life for themselves and make a positive contribution to society.

Disagree, completely.
From my experience they are young educated people completely dejected at the thought of staying in a country and treading water for an indefinite amount of time before they could actually settle.
The housing market, taxation, starting salaries, career prospects, etc are all pretty dire in Ireland from the point of view of someone under 30, thus the desire to leave.

The flipside, those doing nothing with their lives, from my experience, are not looking to leave. Happy to stay on the dole, do their courses and live with their parents until they inherit the house.

Nothing new, young people have left Ireland for better prospects for centuries, it's not suddenly that they are complaining from their parent's couches :P

I will add, all those I know who are looking to move are young, educated(at least 1 degree in an employable field, not basket weaving :P ), in decent industries already and well aware of their prospects in Ireland.
The simple fact is by comparison to other countries most of those industries in Ireland are severely handicapped or filled with glass ceilings.

Bearing that in mind they are still looking to leave, even before covid but that has just accelerated the process.

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

+1. There is an even more dangerous version of covid coming from Brazil and South Africa. So if you are coming from there, then either sorry you cannot come in, or go into quarantine for a month until we are sure you are not infected. I don't see the problem at all

Similar problems as what other countries are finding now with mandatory quarantines.

1. Very hard to keep track of,
2. Costs a bomb(another caveat, someone comes and doesn't have the money to cover their costs),
3. Bad optics(think families with young kids being photographed from their isolation rooms by the media, has already happened and the bleeding hearts have been voicing their anger at it),
4. Question of legality(human rights, right to free unimpeded travel, etc),
5. Adequate testing could shorten the quarantine to until you get a result, within an hour if the HSE ever approve antibody testing,
6. Even military enforced quarantines have been ineffective,
7. After quarantine if some of the arrivals in a family are found to be infected and others are not should the whole lot be released, or stay quarantined, or a subset thereof? Remember kids too here, cannot be quarantined on their own,
8. Unaccompanied minors/vulnerable people,

I'm sure I am missing some other potential cases where quarantine would be a sh1tshow, but for more reading look at direct provision and it's predecessors? :rolleyes:
That program has been around for a decent while and they still haven't worked out the kinks, I have zero faith the gov here is capable of doing a decent quarantine program given the hames they make of everything else they touch even in the normal course of events pre covid.

Final point, I thought the strains from SA/Brazil were not more deadly, just more infectious?
I know the reports tend to equate one with the other but that isn't actually the case. Cases are not directly proportional to deaths.

Mellor

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

1. Very hard to keep track of,
2. Costs a bomb(another caveat, someone comes and doesn't have the money to cover their costs),
3. Bad optics(think families with young kids being photographed from their isolation rooms by the media, has already happened and the bleeding hearts have been voicing their anger at it),
4. Question of legality(human rights, right to free unimpeded travel, etc),
5. Adequate testing could shorten the quarantine to until you get a result, within an hour if the HSE ever approve antibody testing,
6. Even military enforced quarantines have been ineffective,
7. After quarantine if some of the arrivals in a family are found to be infected and others are not should the whole lot be released, or stay quarantined, or a subset thereof? Remember kids too here, cannot be quarantined on their own,
8. Unaccompanied minors/vulnerable people,

1. Easy track if actual quarantine just not asking people to stay home please.
2. Government pays initially. After which it becomes a cost of travel.
3. Outweighed by the good optics of having a count of cases blocked from the community. (And multiple times that case from infections others)
4. People can enter a country without the right visa or permission. No right precedes that. Immigration controls existed before covid.
5. Nope. If you just caught it on the plane you won’t test positive for a while. It’s has a long incubation time.
6. Sure. And hotel quarantine has been effective
7. if they’ve been in close contact with an infected person. They need to isolate. Same as any where.
8. Unaccompanied minor shouldn’t be travelling internationally alone right now

otmmyboy2

Mellor wrote: »

1. Easy track if actual quarantine just not asking people to stay home please.
2. Government pays initially. After which it becomes a cost of travel.
3. Outweighed by the good topics of having a count of case block from the community.
4. People can enter a country with the right visa or permission. No right precedes that.
5. Nope. If you just caught it on the place you won’t test positive for wine time.
6. Sure. And hotel quarantine what’s been effective
7. if they’ve been in close contact with an infected person. They need to isolate. Same as any where.
8. Unaccompanied minor shouldn’t be travelling internationally alone

1. Tell that to Canada/UK/Aus/NZ who have all had people go missing from their quarantine hotels. Think the Irish gov can do better? Have they ever? I've yet to encounter something gov run and thought, oh these chaps should really have more control/responsibility. :rolleyes:
2. €2000 estimated cost? Come on, that is utterly mental. Especially when certain jobs are exempted(think Martin would be doing so after his bowl of weeds are delivered). Also doesn't take into account some people will be unaware and not have the funds to pay for it, so taxpayers foot the bill. Again.
3. Doesn't work out in practicality, even countries with strict quarantines have had outbreaks. Media still jump on it, even while saying it is a good thing, just badly implemented. Think ours will be perfect? Or even workable?
4. How does that work then with rights to free travel enjoyed within the EU? Simple scenario, EU passport holder comes to Ireland from Brazil. They cannot be quarantined because that interferes with free movement of EU citizens. Similar to those transiting from place to place. Overnight layover so they have to quarantine for that single night and then get escorted back to the airport? There was minor kerfuffle over US troops doing just that recently at Shannon.
5. Within the hour for the antibody testing, not the actual quarantine.
6. ???? NZ had a military enforced quarantine that was ineffective. They tried this after the civilian authorities bungled it. Neither was foolproof.
7. Isolate and quarantine are not the same thing, so the problem stands.
8. Should is not can/cannot, they can and do, it is a valid scenario that no-one has really answered well, even in countries which have had quarantines for travelers for the duration.

Mellor

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

1. Tell that to Canada/UK/Aus/NZ who have all had people go missing from their quarantine hotels. Think the Irish gov can do better? Have they ever? I've yet to encounter something gov run and thought, oh these chaps should really have more control/responsibility. :rolleyes:
2. €2000 estimated cost? Come on, that is utterly mental. Especially when certain jobs are exempted(think Martin would be doing so after his bowl of weeds are delivered). Also doesn't take into account some people will be unaware and not have the funds to pay for it, so taxpayers foot the bill. Again.
3. Doesn't work out in practicality, even countries with strict quarantines have had outbreaks. Media still jump on it, even while saying it is a good thing, just badly implemented. Think ours will be perfect? Or even workable?
4. How does that work then with rights to free travel enjoyed within the EU? Simple scenario, EU passport holder comes to Ireland from Brazil. They cannot be quarantined because that interferes with free movement of EU citizens. Similar to those transiting from place to place. Overnight layover so they have to quarantine for that single night and then get escorted back to the airport? There was minor kerfuffle over US troops doing just that recently at Shannon.
5. Within the hour for the antibody testing, not the actual quarantine.
6. ???? NZ had a military enforced quarantine that was ineffective. They tried this after the civilian authorities bungled it. Neither was foolproof.
7. Isolate and quarantine are not the same thing, so the problem stands.
8. Should is not can/cannot, they can and do, it is a valid scenario that no-one has really answered well, even in countries which have had quarantines for travelers for the duration.

1. How many people went missing?
   1%? Less? That is considerably better than just letting 100% of people in.
   Have you seen how successful it has been in those places?
2. If it ended lockdown 8 months ago it would have been a huge saving overall.
3. It doesn’t need to eliminate every single case to be successful. I couldnt care less about what the media says if it was working.
4. Being quarantined doesn’t interfere with a right to travel.
   Simple scenario. An Australian citizen flies to Australia. They go into quarantine, they pay for it themselves too, as they knew the rules when they booked (government paid for when rules first came in).
5. Antibody test takes <1hr to get a result. But it could take a week for you body to produce antibodies. If infected, you could pass a test for a period of time.
6. NZ has had 1 death in 6months. 26 deaths total. And under 100 active cases. You class that as ineffective?
7. The purpose of quarantine is to isolate people who are incubating a virus. If somebody you are isolating with tests Covid positive. You should either stay in isolation with them. Or isolate from them and quarantine again.
8. They would know in advance they have to quarantine. If a guardian chooses to let them fly knowing that, that’s their choice.
   A adult could join them in quarantine at destination if they wished

Cass

By Jaysus thats some wind/weather.

On an early morning trip to Dublin and home again (essential before anyone asks) and the wind is dangerous. Seen a truck lean almost completely over. Say the driver's cacks need replacing. I know mine might as i was on his outside when it happened.

Was just as windy in Dublin but no where near as bad in terms of rain. Hit Rathcoole on the way home and the skies opened up again and stayed that way all the way home,