Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

I'd immediately agree with you but on thinking about it, and this is pure speculation, how well would it go for the Government though?

You'd assume the Government are better armed, cos they are. However nukes would never be used (contrary to some congressmen's beliefs) so its conventional armaments. However the soldiers, while much better trained (or even just simply trained), are not immediately on the Government's side. Well i wouldn't think so.

Then the issue of the optics, especially in this day and age, of troops attacking/arresting/shooting citizens would turn those on the fence to one side or the other. Essentially you'd be looking at ACW take two. It'd go on for years and be a very different country when all is done.

Of course the other side is shooting at static targets every second Sunday does not make one an operator, plus when you lose your Netflix, lazyboy chair, and takeaways i wonder how long people's resolve would last.

Here, thats a picture of me, take that down !

Mellor

Cass wrote: »

Then the issue of the optics, especially in this day and age, of troops attacking/arresting/shooting citizens would turn those on the fence to one side or the other. Essentially you'd be looking at ACW take two. It'd go on for years and be a very different country when all is done.

If the army were attacking and shooting random citizens, I'd guess the public would be off the fence pretty fast. But that would apply to genuine attack of innocent bystanders.

If it was a case of being forced to use force on an extremist group. That doesn't represent the average Joe, then I doubt they'd care much.
In fact, we know they don't as it's banned many time when various cults tried to declare sovereignty and armed up. There's no but they are americans - it's more those lunatics where asking for it.

But it's only when the groups represent the common Joe that it leads to civil war. Look at Ireland in 1910-1925.

BattleCorp

Feisar wrote: »

I don't like America's attitude towards guns. Or at least the attitude that prevails predominantly. It appears a gun is a weapon first and a beautiful amalgamation of steel and wood a distant second. The bould Joe is right there, a well armed militia would keep a government in check when the musket was the order of the day. But these days the notion is nonsensical.

An armed populace might have a slim chance at keeping the Government in check but an unarmed populace has none.

Feisar

Note to self, don't drink and post.

Cass

tudderone wrote: »

Here, thats a picture of me, take that down !

Its actually a selfie.

Mellor wrote: »

If the army were attacking and shooting random citizens, I'd guess the public would be off the fence pretty fast. But that would apply to genuine attack of innocent bystanders.

My thoughts were along the lines of a militia group and i don't mean a hundred people in a log cabin following a long haired friend of Jesus, but hundreds of thousands or more of truly fed up people ranging from veterans to currently serving armed forces and members of the public.

Like previous conflicts abroad a lot of people didn't have strong feelings one way or the other until the pictures of the first coffins coming home were broadcast then it polarized people fairly quickly.

If it was a case of being forced to use force on an extremist group. That doesn't represent the average Joe, then I doubt they'd care much.

Yeah, as said above if its a few people, holed up in a house somewhere, then yes it'll be largely ignored. Any sort of size to it [the movement] and it would be a different story.

In fact, we know they don't as it's banned many time when various cults tried to declare sovereignty and armed up. There's no but they are americans - it's more those lunatics where asking for it.

Again not talking about a cult or fringe group. I'm talking about normal people.

[quote[But it's only when the groups represent the common Joe that it leads to civil war. Look at Ireland in 1910-1925.[/QUOTE]
At the moment, and i've no figures to support or deny this, but there is a large percentage that are thinking along these lines. Seemingly.

Feisar wrote: »

Note to self, don't drink and post.

Why not? They're fun.

Mellor

Cass wrote: »

Its actually a selfie.

My thoughts were along the lines of a militia group and i don't mean a hundred people in a log cabin following a long haired friend of Jesus, but hundreds of thousands or more of truly fed up people ranging from veterans to currently serving armed forces and members of the public.

We’re saying the same thing I think.
The further the crazies are from the normal Joe the less they’ll be able to identify or will want to.
Jesus Cults, long haired wilderpeople, Q-shaman in horns and Norse tattoos. I don’t think the average Joe identifies with them.

I think other extremist groups blend in to normality a lot easier though.

BattleCorp

Mellor wrote: »

I think other extremist groups blend in to normality a lot easier though.

The way things are going, believing you should have access to firearms (2A in the US) puts you in an extremist group nowadays.

Cass

Welcome to the newer, cleaner, Off Topic thread. Version 2.0 if you will.

Having discussed this with the other Mods we have decided to implement some thread specific rules. These rules will run consecutively with the forum rules, not as stand alone ones. So all other forum rules apply.

As and from this post/moment we're starting anew. I've done a massive cull of the last few days and essentially wiped out all posts, my own included, because with all the crap being slung its hard to edit or leave the good bits. Its not feasible to go back weeks or months so everything up till a couple of days back will have to remain where it is, until i get a chance to properly review the thread.

So here it is.

1. Civility. Its the number one rule of the forum and site and for good reason. Things can and will get heated but so long as posters are playing the ball and not the man it'll be fine. Anyone who attacks the poster and NOT the content of their post will have their post removed and face infraction.
2. Godwin's law will have no place in this thread. Nothing, and I mean nothing, compares to the Nazi party or the atrocities carried out under their reign and any comparison to todays current events cannot compare to that. So any attempt to compare current events, bar actual Nazis goose-stepping down a road or carrying out attacks, will be deleted. If something is bad, not fair, or in your opinion an infringement of civil liberties then explain your position without the need for this comparison.
3. Extremist views/ "Fake news". This shouldn't need to be said but I'm saying it regardless, and it applies to all political or other beliefs. Any posts that cross the line of decency will be immediately, and in their entirety, removed. Anyone discussing a topic that makes wild, unfounded and unverifiable claims, off an egregious nature, will have it removed. This is at the Mods discretion because of the subjective nature of such a rule but when its obvious, its obvious.
4. Language (not cursing). We have fallen into the habit of using slang terminology for some people, places, things and regardless of personal beliefs some are no longer acceptable, and others never were. This includes, but is not limited to ethnic, racial, religious or other derogatory remarks/comments and any slang terms commonly used for them. If you wish to discuss a group, race, religion, political party or person, use their proper name. It'll also help people understand exactly who/what you are discussing.
5. Backseat moderation. This is a site and forum rule but I'm taking this chance to remind people of it because its been lost on some. There are now 5 Moderators on this forum. If you have a problem you use the report post function, this -> , and let a Moderator deal with it. Any on thread comments/posts telling or suggesting to people that they should not post, that this thread should not exist, or in general acting as a Moderator be will removed without warning. The poll a few weeks back settled the matter of this threads fate and we have to move on with the result.

This threads original purpose was to allow shooting forum members to discuss pretty much anything they wanted without leaving the shooting forum. It was an opportunity to talk crap, talk seriously or just shoot the breeze. With Trump, Brexit and Covid there has been 3 major and divisive topics that have dominated the thread for some time.

Two of those three are over and God wiling the third will soon follow. That means we can get back to arguing over the usual stuff. I realise with everything said over the last number of years, and the irony is not lost on me that I'm a large contributor to that, it may be hard for some to move on or put it behind them, but this "renewal" is that opportunity for us all to do just that.

I'll end on this.

The Moderators and I do not want to limit the range of topics that can be discussed on this thread, however the free for all that has been happening lately has caused us to re-evaluate the threads existence (the poll a few weeks back) and even after that wonder if the trouble it causes is still worth it. We believe it is if we can get back to basics.

So there is no limitation on topics (barring the obvious stuff that is prohibited by site rules such as illegality, etc.) only a refresher on posting etiquette.

I'll do a review on all the removed post over the coming days and some may appear again either in whole or part, depending on content. Its too much work to do right now and the thread would have to be shut down while this happens so deleting them for review was the better option.

If anyone has any comments or input myself or the other Mods are happy to listen to you but any/all communication can be done via PM so as not to clog the thread up with posts about the thread especially given the new rule #5 above.

Thanks for your patience.

Shooting Mod Team.

Cass

Just FYI, the thread is open for posts. It was only closed last night while the clean was being done.

Feisar

Further to the rebarreling thread. It’s not relevant to it so not posting there.
My dad tells me of some questionable repairs to shotguns by car mechanics/handymen back in the day.

Cass

Suppose gunsmithing was not a "thing" as it is today so wouldn't surprise me.

tudderone

Feisar wrote: »

Further to the rebarreling thread. It’s not relevant to it so not posting there.
My dad tells me of some questionable repairs to shotguns by car mechanics/handymen back in the day.

People hadn't a pot to whizz in years ago, it was make do and mend. I seen it with all sorts, cars, tractors, motorcycles, bicycles. In some ways, compared to today it was good to see. The woman next door changed her car recently, got into massive hock with the bank for a 50k tin box. She was telling me you couldn't possible drive a car over three years old, i mean what would people think :rolleyes:.

I knew a lad years ago, that would rough shoot with us, who had a single barrel, with the closing mechanism furked, it was held closed with an inner tube from a bicycle :eek:. It didn't seem to cause him trouble.

Grizzly 45

My 1st car a 1972 Landrover SWB,I drove it a few time to a mechanic who specialised in LR repair 15 miles from me betimes with literally ZERO foot brake,and breaking with just handbrake and gear shifting, down the Limerick /Shannon dual carriageway a good few times, and no one was the wiser minus any sort of seat belts in it too because of its age it wasn't required.
My mates 1st cars weren't any better,if not worse. One lad had a Morris Minor that his brakes were a baulk of wood with a chain contraption to the hand brake that you pulled when you wanted to stop in lieu of the brake pedal connected to the rear wheels:eek:
He drove like that for months before he got someone to fix his brakes on his 30 quid a week wages as a farmhand.:eek:
Welded together chassis, holes repaired with Isopon in the chassis, floor plates repaired with nicked road traffic signs, and wire coat hangers used as the welding flux. Stuff that would give an NCT inspector a coronary on the spot.
If you were stopped for some reason,all AGS wanted to see was tax and insurance,and you weren't falling out of the car langers,you were grand. Didn't matter about the 15 others in the back of the van you were giving a lift home to either.:)
How no one was killed in some of these Mad Max death traps,I'll never know.
Seen a few of those types of guns you mentioned.DBBLS held together with baling twine and electricians tape and in one case an ancient hammer SXS kept with both barrels on full cock held back with rubber bands while out on a days woodcock shooting.:eek::eek:
Yeah,we could get away with things unthinkable today,but remember the time too.We weren't being micromanaged for our own good from Brussels in all aspects of our lives.
Shooting was in enforced indefinite hibernation with the troubles, and the thoughts of owning anything bigger than a .22/250 or a handgun of any type would get you a look that you must have been on the quare stuff, and you were a serious gun owner if you had THREE guns at the address. But so long as they were licensed,who cared how many rounds they held or how long the barrels were?
Nor were we as litigation happy back then as we are now either.
I'll just put it down to our Irish luck that there weren't any people killed by POS firearms either exploding or firing of their own will due to being in dire mechanical condition, same as our 80s Mad Max-style engineered and repaired cars.

tudderone

Leo Varadkar reckons it will be into April before things can open up again with the covid virus.



https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/coronavirus-ireland-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-20068122

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

Leo Varadkar reckons it will be into April before things can open up again with the covid virus.

More musings from the sycophant.

Mr Varadkar added outdoor sports training was one of the things that is "open for consideration" from April 5.

I suspect at best that will be within counties, so still no range days for most of us.

He said: "The CDC in the United States, which is one of the world's most respected public health bodies, is now saying people who are vaccinated can meet up without masks.

He was quick to discount their advice when it didn't suit the government narrative.

This being the same CDC who previously said that healthy people should not be wearing masks, then promptly did a 180.
Who also say children over 2 years should wear masks.

Our gov is creating an unequal society, again:
The vaccinated vs the second class citizens.

civdef

Our gov is creating an unequal society, again:
The vaccinated vs the second class citizens.

I love this stuff - what's your proposal here - magically vaccinate everyone at once? Or vaccinate no-one?

civdef

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

My 1st car a 1972 Landrover SWB,I drove it a few time to a mechanic who specialised in LR repair 15 miles from me betimes with literally ZERO foot brake,and breaking with just handbrake and gear shifting, down the Limerick /Shannon dual carriageway a good few times, and no one was the wiser minus any sort of seat belts in it too because of its age it wasn't required.

I have a 1973 one, I'd say the biggest challenge was noticing the difference between normal and no braking - those drums work slowly!


My own experience is that the big improvement in car roadworthiness has played a dominant role in our massively improved road safety stats. Looking back at it now, it's hard to credit what used to be considered normal.

otmmyboy2

civdef wrote: »

I love this stuff - what's your proposal here - magically vaccinate everyone at once? Or vaccinate no-one?

Me too

Simple, don't create the unequal society.
Keep those who chose to be vaccinated and those who do not on the same footing.

The vaccinations are not mandatory, and this differing treatment of people based on a supposedly "optional" choice is just a backdoor into making it mandatory.

A la the public services card debacle that they had to row back on.

I am not anti-vaccines in general, but this one I am suspect of, because of:
The blanket immunity to liability for the companies,
The relative lack of testing,
The speed with which it was developed,
The MRNA vaccines being the first of their kind,
The government's stated media campaign to get people to accept the "optional" vaccine(as a general rule I will distrust anyone trying to get me to do anything).

I'm sure there are others but that is off the top of my head.

But I think the above is a reasonable set of reasons to opt out of a vaccine.
And I do not think that my choosing not to accept the vaccine should make me less than someone who does get it.

Also what about the various people who cannot get the vaccine out of obligation or medical reasons?
IE - religious reasons, women who may be or become pregnant in the near future(no studies done on this AFAIK), not being health enough to get the vaccine(cancer patients, those with weakened immune systems, those on immunosuppressants, etc).
I've yet to hear a plan to accommodate them in the gov's plans, just a bland percentage of those to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity.
Also with no mention of those who have acquired natural immunity through having had the virus.

tudderone

The mother got the jab at 10 this morning, she seems ok, no side effects, in and out in 15mins.

tudderone

civdef wrote: »

I have a 1973 one, I'd say the biggest challenge was noticing the difference between normal and no braking - those drums work slowly!


My own experience is that the big improvement in car roadworthiness has played a dominant role in our massively improved road safety stats. Looking back at it now, it's hard to credit what used to be considered normal.

The roads are vastly different too, i remember roads in rural areas with no tarmac on them, it had been washed away and never replaced. Roads looking like chessboards, a couple of shovels of tar thrown into potholes that was gone after the first spill of rain.

civdef

I see where you’re coming from, but I couldn’t support not letting a vaccinated 85 year old see their grandkids just because everyone hasn’t got it yet.

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Me too

Simple, don't create the unequal society.
Keep those who chose to be vaccinated and those who do not on the same footing.

The vaccinations are not mandatory, and this differing treatment of people based on a supposedly "optional" choice is just a backdoor into making it mandatory.

A la the public services card debacle that they had to row back on.

I am not anti-vaccines in general, but this one I am suspect of, because of:
The blanket immunity to liability for the companies,
The relative lack of testing,
The speed with which it was developed,
The MRNA vaccines being the first of their kind,
The government's stated media campaign to get people to accept the "optional" vaccine(as a general rule I will distrust anyone trying to get me to do anything).

I'm sure there are others but that is off the top of my head.

But I think the above is a reasonable set of reasons to opt out of a vaccine.
And I do not think that my choosing not to accept the vaccine should make me less than someone who does get it.

Also what about the various people who cannot get the vaccine out of obligation or medical reasons?
IE - religious reasons, women who may be or become pregnant in the near future(no studies done on this AFAIK), not being health enough to get the vaccine(cancer patients, those with weakened immune systems, those on immunosuppressants, etc).
I've yet to hear a plan to accommodate them in the gov's plans, just a bland percentage of those to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity.
Also with no mention of those who have acquired natural immunity through having had the virus.

otmmyboy2

civdef wrote: »

I see where you’re coming from, but I couldn’t support not letting a vaccinated 85 year old see their grandkids just because everyone hasn’t got it yet.

Me either, I certainly think she should. A missed moment cannot be replaced and all that.

But I also think that healthy people, regardless of age, should not have been(and continue to be) subject to the longest lasting lockdown in Europe. More than several other EU countries combined, and still ongoing with no concrete end in sight bar vague platitudes.

It doesn't just skew older either, think of all the younger kids who haven't had the social interaction they need to develop their social skills early in life.

All new mothers in the past year have been deprived of mother & baby groups, breastfeeding groups( a brilliant source of support for young mothers), support groups, childcare.
Fathers have been denied their rightful place at their spouse/partner's side as they gave birth to their children.
I'm sure the horror stories will emerge in time about such things and I hope be given the attention they deserve to not happen again, but that is little comfort to those who missed the moments they will never be able to get back.

I read something recently about a young child walking with their parents, and when the child saw someone approaching them she pointed and said, paraphrasing because I couldn't find the article, "Oh no, people."

I think things like that, all the social & economic impacts, will be felt long after covid, the vaccines, the masks, etc are (hopefully) long forgotten.

Cass

civdef wrote: »

I see where you’re coming from, but I couldn’t support not letting a vaccinated 85 year old see their grandkids just because everyone hasn’t got it yet.

Perhaps i'm remembering incorrectly (ala the source of this statement) but were we not told that even after vaccination we need to keep wearing masks, staying away from family/friends, and essentially adhering to lockdown protocols?

By the way i understand the need for these measures until enough people are vaccinated and a level, if not complete, herd immunity is reached, but that detail was not mentioned or even implied which is probably the cause of some of the opposition.

otmmyboy2

Cass wrote: »

By the way i understand the need for these measures until enough people are vaccinated and a level, if not complete, herd immunity is reached, but that detail was not mentioned or even implied which is probably the cause of some of the opposition.

There is also a decent amount of griping over the government's definition of herd immunity only including vaccinated folks, not acquired immunity from having had covid.
That and their discussion of vaccines only lasting X months before needing boosters, which will mean their definition of herd immunity will be a constantly fluctuating number.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Perhaps i'm remembering incorrectly (ala the source of this statement) but were we not told that even after vaccination we need to keep wearing masks, staying away from family/friends, and essentially adhering to lockdown protocols?

By the way i understand the need for these measures until enough people are vaccinated and a level, if not complete, herd immunity is reached, but that detail was not mentioned or even implied which is probably the cause of some of the opposition.

My understanding is that the vaccine protects you from the virus. In other words, you can catch it but it won't do you much (if any) harm but it doesn't stop you from passing it on to someone else who may not be vaccinated.

Plus none of the three or four vaccines offer 100% protection, there's probably a good 5% to 10% for whom the vaccine won't work so yeah, we are stuck with social distancing for quite a while yet.

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

Perhaps i'm remembering incorrectly (ala the source of this statement) but were we not told that even after vaccination we need to keep wearing masks, staying away from family/friends, and essentially adhering to lockdown protocols?

By the way i understand the need for these measures until enough people are vaccinated and a level, if not complete, herd immunity is reached, but that detail was not mentioned or even implied which is probably the cause of some of the opposition.

Looking at previous pandemics etc the powers the be would have had a rough idea that there would be no quick solution this time last year, no quick lock down to "flatten the curve". They knew business were going to be effed, no LC restriction of our liberties for this extended period and all the rest of it. We're just being drip fed the bad news to try and keep up from kicking up to much.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

I love this stuff - what's your proposal here - magically vaccinate everyone at once? Or vaccinate no-one?

Possibly do like the UK?Get as many 1st doses of whatever into the most people possible,so they have a 60% + immunity with the 1st shot?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Possibly do like the UK?Get as many 1st doses of whatever into the most people possible,so they have a 60% + immunity with the 1st shot?

Our lot are relying on the eu for the vaccine and can only use what they give. They should have gone solo and bought it where ever they could obtain it. Their first duty is to the citizens of Ireland, not a pretend parliament in Brussels.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

I see where you’re coming from, but I couldn’t support not letting a vaccinated 85 year old see their grandkids just because everyone hasn’t got it yet.

Have you asked the 85-year-olds that question?
my mum is now 83 and possibly on the chaotic list of when she will get the dose.3 of her friends were given last-minute or no show doses in the last two weeks.
So I have skin in the game on this. But as she has said herself Once you are passed the 80 mark, every day is not a given anymore,and Covid is robbing her age group of what time is left, and when you reach a certain age, you get to accept that "appointment in Samarra" which we all have to make is coming closer every day.
So she has decided NOT to be a prisoner in her own house and goes and meets likewise minded old folks who want to meet up and are of the same mindset and contrary to what their children and govt say.
Time is short for those folk so maybe ASK them and allow what they want to do perhaps? If some want to live like hermits surrounded by a platoon of children guarding and waiting on them...Fair enugh...others might say so what I'm a goner soon enough let me hug my grankids. I think our oldies at least deserve THAT much.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Our lot are relying on the eu for the vaccine and can only use what they give. They should have gone solo and bought it where ever they could obtain it. Their first duty is to the citizens of Ireland, not a pretend parliament in Brussels.

But that would require a spine and testicular matter, and the mindset of being there to serve your people and nation. Something our lot do not posses.