Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Mellor

tudderone wrote: »

Its been edited, says an automatic pistol and a handgun now

Are automatic pistol and machine pistol not synonymous?

otmmyboy2

Mellor wrote: »

Are automatic pistol and machine pistol not synonymous?

Well an automatic pistol can mean-
Automatic as in it feeds rounds automatically(as in not manually operated or a revolver, so most semiauto pistols)
Or it could mean a pistol that is fully automatic/burst, a machine pistol.

Machine pistol generally only refers to a pistol with a selector switch allowing full auto or burst fire, so not just semiauto.

Similar terms and I am sure the media uses them interchangably, but a subtle difference nontheless.

Complicated by the fact that the Germans used to preface their submachineguns with MP(Maschinenpistole), ie the MP18, MP38, MP40, H&Ks MP5 & MP7 etc when they were actually submachineguns by definition, but by name were maschinenpistole, machine pistols.

Not to mention the MP44 which was the first assault rifle(select fire intermediate cartridge), which of course was a maschinenpistole too.

Just to complicate things lol

Rows Grower

Yet another mass shooting in the USA.....

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/police-respond-shooting-downtown-san-jose-california-2021-05-26/

Grizzly 45

In another Democrat run,extremely gun controlled state... Fixed it for ya!;)

Mellor

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Well an automatic pistol can mean-
Automatic as in it feeds rounds automatically(as in not manually operated or a revolver, so most semiauto pistols)
Or it could mean a pistol that is fully automatic/burst, a machine pistol.

I wouldn’t include semi-automatic with something described as “automatic”.

Or, if that’s the stance. There’s probably a lot of apologies owed to media, guards, and anti-firearms groups who conflate semi-auto with automatic weapons all the time. Not a road I want to take myself.

Machine pistol generally only refers to a pistol with a selector switch allowing full auto or burst fire, so not just semiauto.

I think that’s automatic pistol also implies full auto fire capabilities. Select-fire is a subset feature in itself.

In rifles, a machine gun is a fully auto rifle design for sustained fire, not bursts like an select fire assault rifle. But I don’t see why the nomenclature changes, from pistol to rifle.

Taking semi out of the automatic category and it’s pretty clear to me.

Semi-auto pistol = semi auto only
Automatic/Machine pistol = automatic fire capability

Complicated by the fact that the Germans used to preface their submachineguns with MP(Maschinenpistole), ie the MP18, MP38, MP40, H&Ks MP5 & MP7 etc when they were actually submachineguns by definition, but by name were maschinenpistole, machine pistols.

Not to mention the MP44 which was the first assault rifle(select fire intermediate cartridge), which of course was a maschinenpistole too.

Just to complicate things lol

Terms are not necessarily exclusive. there’s going to be a lot of crossover between categories. Further confused by language.

But a sub-machine gun. Is a machine gun (rifle) that fire pistol rounds. Make it’s form smaller, and it’s no longer a rifle it’s a pistol. Surely then it’s a machine pistol.
When a rifle become a pistol is perhaps subjective

Grizzly 45

Or it could mean a pistol that is fully automatic/burst, a machine pisto[
Machine pistol generally only refers to a pistol with a selector switch allowing full auto or burst fire, so not just semiauto.

A micro machine pistol is probably a better description for these beasties. IE micro Uzi, the MAC family,Stehekin, CZ Skoripon, Glock 18 Bretta M9 select fire Mauser C96 schnell feuer,etc.

Complicated by the fact that the Germans used to preface their submachineguns with MP(Maschinenpistole), ie the MP18, MP38, MP40, H&Ks MP5 & MP7 etc when they were actually submachineguns by definition, but by name were maschinenpistole, machine pistols.

To be really pedantic...That category of arms would be better described as "machine carbines" They arent long enough to be classified as rifles and too big to be classified as a pistol and have a select fire function.
But that would just melt some brains out there,so they just call anything a machine pistol

Not to mention the MP44 which was the first assault rifle(select fire intermediate cartridge), which of course was a maschinenpistole too.

Only to get the gun going behind Adolf's back.Its full name was "Sturm gewehr 43/44" translated literally means" assault rifle".Adolf thought that machine pistols and rifles were enough on the East front and this was an unnecessary rifle.Hence it was presented to him as a" machine pistol".
Just to complicate things lol [/QUOTE]

otmmyboy2

Interesting line in that article

"These are, and were, essential workers," San Jose's mayor, Sam Liccardo, said of the victims.

Not entirely sure why that matters a damn, but whatever, it is California.

Wonder if you just seceded all the anti gun states into one country and pro gun ones into another which resulting country would have more mass shootings :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Mellor wrote: »

I

I think that’s automatic pistol also implies full auto fire capabilities. Select-fire is a subset feature in itself.

"Automatic pistol" is an old term from the turn of the last century when they started showing up on the market in sales literature."Colt's automatic pistol" "Webleys automatic pistol" etc So the terminology stuck,while mechanically incorrect it has become a common usage term for SEMI automatic handguns.

In rifles, a machine gun is a fully auto rifle design for sustained fire, not bursts like an select fire assault rifle. But I don’t see why the nomenclature changes, from pistol to rifle.

Depends on who you talk to...Say a" machine gun" to anyone in the military they think things like a Browning 50 cal,a M60 a GPMG. Belt fed, possible crew serviced weapon. They don't think of their individual service rifle as such .
Say it to a civilian, they think anything that goes BRRRRTTT!!



.

Semi-auto pistol = semi auto only
Automatic/Machine pistol = automatic fire capability

Spot on!

Terms are not necessarily exclusive. there’s going to be a lot of crossover between categories. Further confused by language.

Fact!

But a sub-machine gun. Is a machine gun (rifle) that fire pistol rounds. Make it’s form smaller, and it’s no longer a rifle it’s a pistol. Surely then it’s a machine pistol.

It might become a machine carbine first,then be shrunk further to a pistol.

When a rifle become a pistol is perhaps subjective

Not really,a pistol is still considered a firearm you can fire with one hand.
Which you can do with the micro machine pistols. Although highly NOT recommended.


Best way to describe this is to have a look at the UZI family of guns.

Starts with the well known UZI "machine pistol" [because of its OAL length it is more a machine carbine with an attached buttstock], then we have under that the Mini Uzi.Which is more of a machine pistol. Select fire,pistol sized with a folding stock if desired, and then the micro Uzi. Totally pistol sized select-fire ,and no buttstock,and short-lived in sales.

Because like most of these select-fire pistol designs, they are uncontrollable without a lot of practice and some sort of stock.Which makes them a poor submachine gun and destroys their supposed main function of being a concealable or small space saving weapon with select fire capability.You lose those 2 prerequisites once you need to have a stock on the gun.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

In another Democrat run,extremely gun controlled state... Fixed it for ya!;)

I couldn't care less about which political party controls the state.

It wasn't posted as a point scoring competition.

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Interesting line in that article

Not entirely sure why that matters a damn, but whatever, it is California.

Wonder if you just seceded all the anti gun states into one country and pro gun ones into another which resulting country would have more mass shootings :rolleyes:

That would be a pretty quiet weekend in Chicago another Democrat-controlled for generations with strict civilian gun control, and a racist black female mayor.Funny MSM NEVER reports of mass shootings there???

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/5/15/22437535/chicago-weekend-shootings-may-14-may-17-crime-gun-violence-homicide

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

I couldn't care less about which political party controls the state.

It wasn't posted as a point scoring competition.

So what was your point in posting it?Is it supposed to just stay here and not be commented upon?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

otmmyboy2

Mellor wrote: »

I wouldn’t include semi-automatic with something described as “automatic”.

Well the "automatic" moniker comes from the early part of the 20th century when most handguns were still revolvers, thus an automatic was the term to denote a pistol which automatically loaded itself, ie a self loading pistol, versus the much more common revolvers.

Or, if that’s the stance. There’s probably a lot of apologies owed to media, guards, and anti-firearms groups who conflate semi-auto with automatic weapons all the time. Not a road I want to take myself.

Not a chance, I can guarantee they don't know the difference if asked, same as anything that is a rifle and black/tactical is an assault rifle/weapon, despite usually not being the case. Even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that. By the laws of probability they will get it right sometimes, even if unintentionally.

I think that’s automatic pistol also implies full auto fire capabilities. Select-fire is a subset feature in itself.

In rifles, a machine gun is a fully auto rifle design for sustained fire, not bursts like an select fire assault rifle. But I don’t see why the nomenclature changes, from pistol to rifle.

Nope. in US legal definition a machingun is anything that can fire more than one round per pull of the trigger.
In common usage a machinegun is a firearm(not rifle) which is designed for sustained fire.
Machineguns have been made which fire in bursts, and similarly assault rifles are often burst or fully automatic, not just burst.

The nomenclature changes from rifle to pistol because they are fundamentally different firearms with differing design objectives and/or usage.

Taking semi out of the automatic category and it’s pretty clear to me.

Semi-auto pistol = semi auto only
Automatic/Machine pistol = automatic fire capability

Nope, both semiautomatic and machine pistols can and are termed to be automatics, to differentiate the former from revolvers.
So while an automatic can be either semi only or select fire(burst/full auto) it is a broad term which covers both, hence automatic covering both semi automatic and fully automatic.

Terms are not necessarily exclusive. there’s going to be a lot of crossover between categories. Further confused by language.

But a sub-machine gun. Is a machine gun (rifle) that fire pistol rounds. Make it’s form smaller, and it’s no longer a rifle it’s a pistol. Surely then it’s a machine pistol.
When a rifle become a pistol is perhaps subjective

Erm, no.
A submachinegun is not a machinegun that fires pistol rounds(presuming we are not using the US legal definition here, in which case anything select fire is a machinegun, regardless of form factor).
Instead a submachinegun is a select fire pistol calibre carbine, not a rifle(which would be restricted to rifle rounds, not pistol).

Making a rifle smaller does not make it a pistol, by definition that is, not the silly US legal interpretation of the same.

Example, I have an 223 AR15, with a 20 inch barrel assembly.
It is a rifle.
I swap the barrel for a 14.5 inch.
It is still a rifle, but could be termed a carbine now because of it's shortened length, a carbine being a short rifle, but still in a rifle calibre.
I swap the barrel for a 4.5 inch.
It is still a rifle/carbine, regardless of the very short barrel length, now in the range most pistol barrels fall into, because it is still firing a rifle round.

Now here is the interesting bit, I swap the upper to a 9mm, with a 14.5 inch barrel.
Now it would be a carbine still, but a PCC, pistol calibre carbine.
I make the lower select fire, and then I would have a submachinegun(select fire in a pistol calibre with a carbine length barrel).
Now the last part, if I get a 4.5 inch barrel for the 9mm upper do I now have a machinepistol, it being a select fire firearm with a pistol length barrel firing a pistol cartridge, a submachinegun or a PDW(personal defence weapon)?

This last one nicely brings in usage, since subguns and PDWs have somewhat differing purposes(offense and defense, respectively).

And finally, if we are again ignoring the US legal definitions of same, a rifle could potentially never become a pistol since if it is shortened it remains either a rifle or a carbine, and if converted to a pistol calibre it becomes a PCC, and if both occur you still have a PCC, just with a short barrel.

Aren't firearm definitions fun lol

Munsterlad102

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/deadly-guns-daniel-goulding-shot-gardai-with-during-blanchardstown-siege-pictured-40475060.html

Yep I knew it, a PM63. I didn't think he'd have a Makarov, but then again, same caliber so fair enough.

tudderone

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/deadly-guns-daniel-goulding-shot-gardai-with-during-blanchardstown-siege-pictured-40475060.html

Yep I knew it, a PM63. I didn't think he'd have a Makarov, but then again, same caliber so fair enough.

They are the most commonly seized firearms in Europe afaik, probably Putin and Lukashenko letting them into the EU deliberately.

Grizzly 45

A spot of preventative maintenance against rust wouldn't have gone astray on either of these firearms.:rolleyes:

Depends on the Markaov itself.Is it made in the Baikal factory?If so it could be another converted blank firer, as all they do is block the barrel with a steel rod of a live-fire which is for sale over the counter ASFIK in Russia.So all that needs to be done is change out the barrel.
The PM was a Polish only issue??? Warsaw pact gun...So someone must have got a warehouse full of these somewhere for half nothing,as they were even considered by WP as POS..

otmmyboy2

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/deadly-guns-daniel-goulding-shot-gardai-with-during-blanchardstown-siege-pictured-40475060.html

Yep I knew it, a PM63. I didn't think he'd have a Makarov, but then again, same caliber so fair enough.

PM63s do seem to be widely favoured by our criminal class it seems, given recent examples seized.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

A spot of preventative maintenance against rust wouldn't have gone astray on either of these firearms.:rolleyes:

Least of his worries at the minute, i'd say.

Munsterlad102

tudderone wrote: »

probably Putin and Lukashenko letting them into the EU deliberately.

Quite possibly, I'd say a good few are being siphoned from units in Ukraine too.

Munsterlad102

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

PM63s do seem to be widely favoured by our criminal class it seems, given recent examples seized.

Yeah, someone must have brought over a fairly large cache of them. Didn't that "Brazilian hitsquad" up in Offaly too? I saw a good few were seized from our travelling folk.

BattleCorp

Rows Grower wrote: »

Yet another mass shooting in the USA.....

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/police-respond-shooting-downtown-san-jose-california-2021-05-26/

I used to live not far from that place.

Mellor

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Well the "automatic" moniker comes from the early part of the 20th century when most handguns were still revolvers, thus an automatic was the term to denote a pistol which automatically loaded itself, ie a self loading pistol, versus the much more common revolvers.

I disagree. It may have been the etymology, but it’s not the 21st century. Now there’s a dustinction.

If two guys were out shooting rabbits with semi-autos. And somebody reported to the police that they were shooting automatic weapons. They should be lambasted for that. Abd regularly ate here.

Not a chance, I can guarantee they don't know the difference if asked, same as anything that is a rifle and black/tactical is an assault rifle/weapon, despite usually not being the case. Even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that. By the laws of probability they will get it right sometimes, even if unintentionally.

Whether they understand it’s irrelevant.
The media often falsely reports random semi auto firearms as “automatic weapons”. Those reports are sneered at here.
You’re saying they’re actually correct. I disagree.

In common usage a machinegun is a firearm(not rifle) which is designed for sustained fire.
Machineguns have been made which fire in bursts, and similarly assault rifles are often burst or fully automatic, not just burst.

As I said above machine guns are designed for sustained fire.
Assault rifles being burst or full would fall under select fire.

The nomenclature changes from rifle to pistol because they are fundamentally different firearms with differing design objectives and/or usage.

I was referring to the nomenclature of “machine”.

As you said, more than one round per trigger action.
That should care to machine pistol.
It also applies to a pistol with an automatic fire mode. (As I said, I exclude semi auto fire from the overall automatic fire set.)

So while an automatic can be either semi only or select fire(burst/full auto) it is a broad term which covers both, hence automatic covering both semi automatic and fully automatic.

As above, I would disagree with the media referring to semi autos as automatic weapons. I’m certain that’s come up here before.

Erm, no.
A submachinegun is not a machinegun that fires pistol rounds(presuming we are not using the US legal definition here, in which case anything select fire is a machinegun, regardless of form factor).
Instead a submachinegun is a select fire pistol calibre carbine, not a rifle(which would be restricted to rifle rounds, not pistol).

Bit of a contradiction there.
If an select fire carbine is also a machine gun.
And a SMG is pistol calibre select fire carbine.
Then an SMG is also a pistol calibre machine gun.

And yes, as Grizzly pointed out. We can separate rifles and carbines. But clearly carbinebis a subset.

Example, I have an 223 AR15, with a 20 inch barrel assembly.
It is a rifle.
I swap the barrel for a 14.5 inch.
It is still a rifle, but could be termed a carbine now because of it's shortened length, a carbine being a short rifle, but still in a rifle calibre.


I swap the barrel for a 4.5 inch.
It is still a rifle/carbine, regardless of the very short barrel length, now in the range most pistol barrels fall into, because it is still firing a rifle round.

Well, 14.5” would still be rifle (carbine) length in terms of law.

The second part doesn’t apply. Your AR is in 223. I said SMG. So it wouldn’t have a rifle calibre at that point.

Now here is the interesting bit, I swap the upper to a 9mm, with a 14.5 inch barrel.
Now it would be a carbine still, but a PCC, pistol calibre carbine.

At 14.5”. Sure

[/quote]I make the lower select fire, and then I would have a submachinegun(select fire in a pistol calibre with a carbine length barrel).[/quote]
Agreed. Note this is the point my example started.

Now the last part, if I get a 4.5 inch barrel for the 9mm upper do I now have a machinepistol, it being a select fire firearm with a pistol length barrel firing a pistol cartridge, a submachinegun or a PDW(personal defence weapon)?

With that form factor. I say it’s a machine pistol.
I think you misread my post, as the above ba is up my point.

It could also be a PDW. As you said that involves use. SMG, MachinePistol do not.
As I pointed out, definitions are not exclusive, unlike whiskey for example.

Grizzly 45

And some good news from Texas,where they take gunownership seriously.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57239610

otmmyboy2

Mellor you are confusing legal definitions from the US(where everything select fire is a "machinegun" as a legal definition, not as a functional description) with the actual terminology of firearms, which is where you are consistently going wrong.

Intent here is also key, particularly when it comes to lay people reporting on firearms, be they media of joe soap.
Their knowledge of firearms meaning they are going to use terms which may not be accurate, or may be catch alls which are commonly misunderstood(ie automatic). Automatic being particularly problematic because it technically refers to the automatic functioning of the reloading mechanism, not the function of the fire control group, which is why there are terms semi and fully automatic, which because English is what it is, gets shortened to "automatic".
Thus the one word, automatic, can be used to refer to both, one strictly correctly and the other as a slang word for fully automatic.

Common usage vs correct usage.

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And some good news from Texas,where they take gunownership seriously.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57239610

Excellent, amid a chorus of idiots saying there will be blood running down the streets presumably.
There usually is when constitutional carry is implemented in a state.
Yet to happen of course, but always crowed about.

Munsterlad102

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And some good news from Texas,where they take gunownership seriously.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57239610

Any change on being allowed to open carry pistols or not?

otmmyboy2

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Any change on being allowed to open carry pistols or not?

I believe if this bill passes it covers carry, not just concealed, so both would be legal without a permit.

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Excellent, amid a chorus of idiots saying there will be blood running down the streets presumably.
There usually is when the constitutional carry is implemented in a state.
Yet to happen of course, but always crowed about.

Yup,they were predicting that scenario in Florida 30 odd years ago when they introduced it there to prevent carjacking,and was I think the 1st state to do so...Net result, physical crime against the person dropped and continued to drop until it is down to the teen figures in Florida.As it has in any states that have introduced it...Strange that...Maybe armed societies are polite societies...:pac:

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yup,they were predicting that scenario in Florida 30 odd years ago when they introduced it there to prevent carjacking,and was I think the 1st state to do so...Net result, physical crime against the person dropped and continued to drop until it is down to the teen figures in Florida.As it has in any states that have introduced it...Strange that...Maybe armed societies are polite societies...:pac:

Depends what you're used to I suppose, have you been here in Ireland long?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yup,they were predicting that scenario in Florida 30 odd years ago when they introduced it there to prevent carjacking,and was I think the 1st state to do so...Net result, physical crime against the person dropped and continued to drop until it is down to the teen figures in Florida.As it has in any states that have introduced it...Strange that...Maybe armed societies are polite societies...:pac:

Don't forget New York and Chicago, Oh wait ..................:eek:

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And some good news from Texas,where they take gunownership seriously.

Shamelessly stolen from you:




:D:D