Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And it's not "all plastic" as wrongly claimed in the media.it still needs a steel barrel insert,and two or three steel pins for the trigger and hammer to work off.

Yup,.

Seen that on SKY news. They showed as "AR". The upper was an 80% and all metal, not something you 3d print. It was, clearly, milled on a CNC. At almost 55,000 psi i wouldn't be putting any 223 round or bigger into a "plastic" gun mere inches from my face. Its not even a one shot rifle.

not to mention as you said the barrel, firing pin, etc. all have to be metal. The only thing that looked 3D printed was the hand guard, grip, and stock. All of which are plastic options as it is.

Same for the "handgun". A 9m can get to about 35,000psi, even a 22lr can be as high as 20,000 psi although 24,000 is the maximum its rated for. My point is how much pressure can a plastic gun handle? Secondly how accurate is it, can it fire multiple shots, etc, etc.

This is the same noise i've heard time and again about "Ghost guns" and once again it seems to be a big nothing burger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI9tov6A2DI

gunny123

What the anti-gunners say does not actually have to be true, it just has to please those that support them. Plenty of buzz-words, and how deadly they are, we have all heard the claims that would leave you with your head in your hands.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtBzIPhwLZc

When i win the euro-millions i'll build a place like that, it would be on my own private bond-villain-esq island though, not this dreary kip of country :P

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Also, it just hit me that simulator would be legal here since I'm pretty sure he's using an airsoft gun, which just stumps me as to why practical shooting is gone here when things like that would be ok: rolleyes:

Nope,called SIMUNITION or CINESHOT,its a very reduced powder charge, almost just your percussion cap and a wax bullet head on the SIMUNITION. It allows you to use your personal firearm for this type of shooting. The Germans are using it nowadays for practising running shots and the like in their hunting license test.

https://rws-munition.de/rws-sportschuetzen-bereich/rws-sportmunition/rws-buechsenpatronen-fuer-den-sportschuetzen/Product/cineshot.html

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope,called SIMUNITION or CINESHOT,its a very reduced powder charge, almost just your percussion cap and a wax bullet head on the SIMUNITION. It allows you to use your personal firearm for this type of shooting. The Germans are using it nowadays for practising running shots and the like in their hunting license test.

https://rws-munition.de/rws-sportschuetzen-bereich/rws-sportmunition/rws-buechsenpatronen-fuer-den-sportschuetzen/Product/cineshot.html

Oh i thought the anemic look and sound of the pistol firing was because it was airsoft:o
Ive seen videos on simunition before kinda like paintball on steroids:D I dont think we'd be considered trustworthy enough to practice running shots like you are saying its being used for in Germany. I can just imagine a garda looking up videos of simunition "i dont like the look ah dem yokes " would be an understatemet:eek::D

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Yup,.

Seen that on SKY news. They showed as "AR". ....

No doubt they were semi-full automatics as well.:rolleyes: The simple fact is you can make the AR lower out a hunk of WOOD too. Its not a pressure bearing part,and as you rightly said,as of yet you cant 3d print a barrel or upper, or bolt carrier or bolt out of a 3D printer.
Yes, we know all about the 1911A1 that was printed out of some exotic metal powder with a 190 thousand dollar laser 3d printing machine.The 1911 only cost about 8thousand dollars to make in that process. :rolleyes:

So we can be assured Tyrone and Dindu[surname Nuthin] local hood rats and gang bangas, are going to go get a hundred thousand dollar 3d laser printer,a bunch of exotic metal powder at probably a few thousand dollars a kilo.

Go learn computer programming and CAD to produce AR15 lowers and all the component parts for various firearm parts favoured by gang bangas and sell them to their fellow hood rats? When could they just go and steal them a lot easier? Sounds plausible:rolleyes: alright...

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

don't think we'd be considered trustworthy enough to practice running shots like you are saying its being used for in Germany.

Going to be a bummer if we ever get wild boar enmasse in Ireland then. They are usually shot on drives, and you learn how to lead and be quick on the trigger there. You need 6out of 10 to pass that part of the hunting test over there in that phase alone. Always wondered why people here were so shocked or amazed when I told them I have shot deer on the hoof here. It's just part &parcel of the test and real-life hunting over there in some cases and situations.:)

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Going to be a bummer if we ever get wild boar enmasse in Ireland then. They are usually shot on drives, and you learn how to lead and be quick on the trigger there. You need 6out of 10 to pass that part of the hunting test over there in that phase alone. Always wondered why people here were so shocked or amazed when I told them I have shot deer on the hoof here. It's just part &parcel of the test and real-life hunting over there in some cases and situations.:)

Some lads have a knack for it ive seen it done here:P lads who shoot alot of foxes generally are very quick at getting a round on a moving target and it translates over to deer quite well imo. Its just not something lads consider here if the deer etc isnt dead still most lads wouldnt dream of shooting but theres also lads who wont shoot past 100 yards though:p
ive shot running hares before when they were only visible in tall grass as they were moving and their heads bobbed above the grass and its a bas!erd to do i dont know if id try it on a deer yet ive nowhere near enough rounds through my 308 to be that comfortable

Nekarsulm

Has any journalist even a rudimentary knowledge of what they write about?
This article and photo has been in many media publications this last few days, so can we assume the Gardai are having a laugh by describing it as a Luger pistol?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/two-arrested-after-garda-vehicles-rammed-gun-seized-in-limerick-1.3581902%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiw-Pv__83cAhXJcsAKHdXZB8IQqUMwAXoECAkQCg&usg=AOvVaw1t4YDEQXw71o_Erz93LW4C&ampcf=1

BattleCorp

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Has any journalist even a rudimentary knowledge of what they write about?
This article and photo has been in many media publications this last few days, so can we assume the Gardai are having a laugh by describing it as a Luger pistol?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/two-arrested-after-garda-vehicles-rammed-gun-seized-in-limerick-1.3581902%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiw-Pv__83cAhXJcsAKHdXZB8IQqUMwAXoECAkQCg&usg=AOvVaw1t4YDEQXw71o_Erz93LW4C&ampcf=1

Jaysus, how long was that pistol buried in a bog before they dug it up?

Grizzly 45

Stock photo of a 1911,[and going by the sights and grip, it looks like a civvie 1911] that was recovered about 8 years ago here in Limerick in another attempted shooting.Looks like it last saw oil and maintenance around the time of the battle of Belleau wood in 1918:rolleyes:

A 9mm Luger pistol...Now was that a genuine Georg Luger, Model 1908 much favoured by Germany from 1908 to 1945? Or a 9mm Luger Parabellum calibre pistol of X make and model?:)
But then again to the unknowing out there, as Mrs Clinton said at the Benghazi embassy congressional hearing"What difference does it make now?":rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

When i win the euro-millions i'll build a place like that, it would be on my own private bond-villain-esq island though, not this dreary kip of country :P

If I had a decent euro millions win,[100million plus] I'd start a Donald Trump style political career over here and start changing the political landscape in this country.

Somone with personal private funds,an outsider not of dynasties or the political system,and least of all not a former school teacher.Not beholden to said system or intrigues or banks or parties...And can actually converse on a native level with our uber bosses in Berlin and know exactly how their Teutonic minds work.The only way we will ever see any major shakeup in this country,bar retaking the GPO some long weekend.:rolleyes:

gunny123

How things are done in France, from gun-jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgVqT2N0XP8

Grizzly 45

Be intresting if we got Ian over to the ROI and explain our laws..Simple version "You cant have or do.!":P

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be intresting if we got Ian over to the ROI and explain our laws..Simple version "You cant have or do.!":P

He would pull his hair out and run towards the airport screaming. But i suppose if you are from America, most countries are going to be a let down, apart from one or two like Switzerland.

gunny123

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ6GWKsdfxw

gunny123

An article on sky news on grouse shooting and the lack of numbers due to the extreme weather this year. Oddly it was a fair piece, no dyed hair shreiking anti's or any of that rubbish.

https://news.sky.com/story/grouse-shortage-to-cost-rural-economy-millions-11461716

gunny123

Travels in Trumpland with Ed Balls, on tonight on BBC 2 at 9.00. Deals with gun ownership etc, knowing the BBC (Bolsheviks broadcasting communism), it will be an anti-gun rant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bfcwc8

Uinseann_16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX3mi4thZY4
Looks like itd make a good little rabbit gun:D especially for lefties

gunny123

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX3mi4thZY4
Looks like itd make a good little rabbit gun:D especially for lefties

I remember the Musgrave rifles being widely advertised back in the 80's, only seen one in the flesh though, i think it was one of these, it was certainly a rimfire. They made good stuff, but cz and the American makers had the market here sown up.

Grizzly 45

South Africa being boycotted for Apartheid at that time didn't help matters either.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

South Africa being boycotted for Apartheid at that time didn't help matters either.

I wonder will they be boycotted now they are expelling white farmers ? Somehow i doubt it.

Cass

Fixed that for you.

gunny123 wrote: »

I wonder will they be boycotted now they are expelling murdering white farmers ? Somehow i doubt it.

Grizzly 45

Yeah,I somehow cant see anyone in Dunneshaving a problem handling SA produce again while white people are being murderd:rolleyes:.
Putin and Austrailia are opening their doors to them, because of their work ethic and skill set,and probably because they can work in the God-awful heat in those countries in Summer. We could do worse than bring a few of them up here as well.
Hard and very skilled workers, conservative in beliefs and morals, and very, very pro-gun.And for those that way inclined, excellent rugby players.:p oh yeah,they also hate the Brits too.

gunny123

Another load of horse ****e from the liberals in the BBC, a programme on the use of obsolete calibre firearms by the usual lowlifes in crimes. Its on on Monday evening, but you can see a trailer in the link below. I wonder if its here RTE gets its ideas ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06hj89l

tac foley

1. Possession of an obsolete calibre firearm, rifle/smoothbore/handgun - perfectly legal of you are over 18 y/o. Classed as Section 58 [Obsolete calibre]. However -

2. Firing said item without it having been entered on your FAC - Criminal offence.

3. Manufacturing ammunition that is not for a gun on your FAC - Criminal offence.

4. Possession of ammunition that is not for a gun on your FAC - Criminal offence.

5. Possession of primers for making ammunition that is not on your FAC - Criminal offence.

6. Possession of primers without an FAC - Criminal offence.

7. Use of ANY firearm in the commission of a crime - Criminal offence.

Quite how this will pan out for the BBC, in the production of a programme which appears to show how to make ammunition without the benefit of any kind of FAC, will be interesting to watch, to say the least.

AAMOF, in order to buy primers, I must show my FAC, and can only buy primers suitable for the calibres that I reload - in my case, large rifle and small pistol. Going into a gun store for the first time, I would not be able to buy powder without first producing my valid FAC. In NI, this is compulsory every time you buy it. Making bullets is no big deal, it's true, nor is buying them by mail order. But the vendor retains the right to ask for your FAC details before shipping them.

All in all, as Gunny notes, another brick in the wall of the 100% firearms ban that so many people here in pwer seem to want, instead of more vigorous application of the MANY laws on illegal ownership.

Cass

Ok, i've bitten my tongue long enough on this. Another article in this mornings paper about the Pope's visit. Its to cost an estimted €32 million, up from the original €20 million. Reason for this cost? Security and organisation.

I'd imagine organising such an event costs a pretty penny but the bigger cost has to be security., Between private security, stewards, and Gardaí its costing a bloody fortune. Not to mention the other cost, the human cost.

People in emergency accommodation being told to leave to make way for guests, visitors, tourists. The money being spent could be put to better use tackling some urgent social needs and not the visit of ............. well i better not say that.

The hypocrisy of this man and the claims he makes. Claims of not needing "weapons". He was referring to weapons of war, but it's a fine distinction he makes to keep him on the "right" side as he has this in his basement, and that is only the "for show" stuff.




His claims to be good to, and out among your fellow man but in his case behind a bullet proof shield with armed security at all times




Oh, and his claims that Christians don't build walls, they build bridges but lives behind this




I know it's nothing new and history has shown that the Catholic church is one of the most corrupt and filth strewn organisations in the history of the world, but come on. Its like Paul Heuston, Gordon Sumner, Leonardo Dicaprio, etc, etc. telling us we need to give all we can to charity and save the planet while they have enough collective money to wipe out world hunger.

Grizzly 45

Good comment and background info by Richard Law of the UK's Shooters Rights Association the BBC programme on obsolete guns.

Panorama - BBC One Monday 20th at 20.30 BST 'legal weapon'.
This arises from RFD Paul Edmunds buying obsolete calibre revolvers in the US and selling them with homemade ammunition to the scrote community, for which he got a 30-year sentence last November.
The Beeb have been sitting on this programme for months waiting for another case to hit the courts - and that case ended on Wednesday with the dealer acquitted. Edmunds was a one-off rogue dealer, judging by the number of his 'associates' to have been rolled over by the police and come up clean.
The Law Commission have recommended that antique firearms should not change hands for cash - a restriction that has applied to the scrap metal trade for sometime - and the Policing and Crime Act 2017 empowered the Home Office to introduce regulations to define an antique: which they haven’t yet.
That's at the heart of this: the first Firearms Act in 1920 exempted antiques from controls, subject to being possessed solely as curiosities or ornaments. These two words had been used in conjunction with each other to advertise 'Exchange and Mart' magazine (founded 1878) in other publications, so in 1920 everyone knew what they meant.
The landmark prosecution was Richards v Curwen in 1977 - which acquitted him of possessing two early mark (1890s) Webley revolvers. To be an antique, the firearm has to be kept as a curiosity or ornament after which its obsolescence by age is the question of fact and degree. The court rejected the prosecution argument that the Webleys used 'modern' ammunition on the basis that using ammunition type as a definition would mean they'd never become antiques, but also said that 20th century firearms probably wouldn’t be antiques.
Naturally, the Home Office ignored the Court of Appeal and continued to rely on ammunition as defining antique versus modern. The secret memorandum of guidance to police (1969) suggested that obsolete ignition systems were antiques and carried that thinking through to the published version in 1989 with advice that possession of ammunition might indicate that something wasn’t a curiosity or ornament. Then in 1992, pressured by the passage of time, came the obsolete calibre list. That caused some prosecutions: one of our members had a collection of Martini Henry rifles on the wall and one on his firearm certificate for target shooting. So when the police rolled him, he was prosecuted for all the antiques because he had ammunition. They dropped that at the court door.
Most of the prosecutions I dealt with (as an expert witness) were people who kept old guns as curiosities or ornaments and the prosecution challenge was that the stuff couldn’t be antique because it took ‘modern ammunition’. Acquittals included a pre-1893 .410” shotgun, a 12 bore 1910 Greener GP, loads of black powder proofed hammer shotguns and a few really old revolvers: all predating 1900, so the acquittals were in line with Richard v Curwen and the anomaly was the prosecutions – driven by guidance to the CPS that didn’t tell them how to decide whether to prosecute or not.
In 1994 R v Brown, the Court of Appeal acquitted him – he had a .22” War Office pattern rifle – and said that time had moved on and so must the definition. Bill Harriman was the defence expert in that one.
Prosecutors continued to apply guidance that did not take account of case law to their decisions. I had a case in which magistrates convicted a dude of all his collection – a Luger pistol, a 19th century blank firing single shot pistol and two flare pistols. These came to him as frames only: he made the stocks, trigger and locking latch and ‘barrelled’ them with copper tube. They looked quite smart, but the obsessive prosecution ‘expert’ insisted that they were lethal barrelled weapons. We didn’t appeal, as the magistrates gave him a conditional discharge and instructed police to give me the exhibits for deactivation so that the defendant could have them back.
In another case, the exhibit was a Colt New Service revolver that had been changing hands round a shooting club for the previous 20 years or so. Police traced it back to when Army and Navy stores sold it new in 1915. The officer buyer gave it to his son for WW2 and he gave it to his daughter’s boyfriend in the 1970s – as he belonged to the club. The club secretary was convicted and fined £150. That was typical in such circumstances and remained so until the 2003 Anti-social Behaviour Act brought in a mandatory five-year sentence for possession of a prohibited small firearm. Handguns were banned in the UK in 1997.
That had the effect of making a defence of ‘antique’ a bigger deal, because instead of £150 fines, five years inside would be a life changing experience. Our early experience of antiques cases post 2003 was prosecutions being dropped if a robust antique status argument was put up. These mostly related to obsolete calibres that weren’t on the Home office list. That list didn’t include .320, for example until the 2003 revision and still doesn’t include .455” – the ammunition that the Richards v Curwen revolvers (1977 acquittal) took.
Then attitudes hardened – we think that the Home Office needed convictions for old tat to make gun crime look as though it were on the up. Juries didn’t want to convict collectors of obsolete stuff with a five year gaol term in the offing: significant acquittals included a 1942 Lanchester submachine gun and a 1946 Inglis Browning GP35 – David Dyson was the defence expert in those cases.
That got the Law Commission into paranoid overdrive and led to clauses in the Policing and Crime Act 2017. Meanwhile, Paul Edmunds was buying old revolvers in the US, making the cartridges and selling into the black market. The case against the section 5 dealer that finished Wednesday started in January 2016 with police burning the electronic locks off his driveway gates. More than thirty police vehicles convoyed in to disgorge over 100 policemen who searched the house in the presence of his young family. He had a small antiques collection and was charged with possessing them without the authority of the secretary of state (which he has) on the strength of ammunition in his armoury might be suitable for use in them.
Such is the paranoid obsession that drives the Home Office. Separating firearms licensing from the police and Home Office to a competent agency is long overdue in the UK.
The jury acquitted him after the traditional two-hour lunch break. So what now? We’ll have to watch the programme and see.

Grizzly 45

Cal Ward's blog post[long] on why do many women find shooting and guns "toxic masculinity"?[While tearing their fellow sisters who hunt and shoot and own guns to bits]

https://calward.blogspot.com/2018/08/women-feminism-and-guns.html?m=1

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Handguns were banned in the UK in 1997.

This is patently NOT true, or else you would not be allowed to legally acquire and possess a handgun in Northern Ireland - part of the UK that decided to exempt itself from the 1997 revised laws.


In FACT, many many thousands of us here in mainland UK STILL have handguns. I have two - a .44cal Ruger Old Army black powder revolver, and a Ruger Super Redhawk .357Magnum long-barrelled revolver. In accordance with the law, the barrel is 12 inches long, and it has a rod-like extension to the butt to make it 24" long overall. The first example, a loose-loading black powder cap and ball handgun, is a gun that I can share with anybody coming to the gun club on a guest day, the second is one that only the license-holder may shoot. There are NO long-barrelled centre-fire semi-auto handguns, but here ARE numerous .22cal semi-auto pistols. In addition, veterinarians may have a centre-fire handgun, restricted to two shots, for the purpose of humane despatch of large animals.

However, you CAN have a cartridge-firing handgun by applying for a Section 7 form of FAC. In the first type, you may acquire and possess the gun, even keep it at home, but you may NOT shoot it - ever. In the second type, you may own it, and shoot it in the interests of historical research etc, but only at a nominated location, where the gun and its ammunition must be stored. It's rather like have a relative in jail that you can visit and play cards with, under the watchful eye of a supervisor, presumably to make sure that you are not having fun.

Having commanded troops, and at the same time been publicly branded a child-slaughtering mass-murderer and been deprived of my many thousands of £££-worth of legal handguns by the government of this country, I chose not to go down this route, and therefore limit myself to what is easiest to have.

For anybody who has read this far, it won't do much more than hurt your eyes to read what goes in to the ownership of prohibited firearm here in the mainland.

None of this rigmarole applies in Northern Ireland, BTW.

Take a deep breath, and......................


Heritage Pistol (Section 7.1 & 7.3)

(List of Heritage Pistol Sites)

Section 7(1) and Section 7(3) of the Firearms Act were promulgated and achieved following the efforts of the HBSA and others to preserve the “Heritage” pistols in danger of being destroyed following the Dunblane tragedy. In brief Section 7(1) permits certain pistols to be held at home as part of a collection, without ammunition, and allows them to be exhibited; while 7(3) permits the possession and use of heritage pistols at certain designated sites. It is possible to own one or more section 7(3) pistols without having a recognised collection.

It should be noted that both section 7(1) and section 7(3) are essentially a means to enable the use of a Firearms Certificate granted by a chief officer of police to authorise the possession and possible use of a section 5 “prohibited” firearm. There is however an essential difference between section 1 and section 7(1) or 7(3) authorities. Section 1 certification in its pure unconditioned form grants unrestricted use of the firearm (within the law that is), and conditions are added to restrict use, whilst for sections 7(1) and 7(3) authority for possession (and use in the case of 7(3)) is granted only under specific terms. In other words, for the latter all is forbidden unless specifically authorised. One side effect of this has led to restriction of research, because users are prohibited from testing or handling each other's pistols unless these are specifically entered on their certificates or some other authority is given, since the possession and use of a section 7(3) pistol does not benefit from the Home Office Approved Club exemption regarding possession and use.


The operation of the Act has settled down in most regions. The administration of Heritage Sites by the Police has in the past caused problems to some administrators through widely differing interpretations of the Guidance, as well as licence conditions. These aspects have been addressed by the Section 7(3) Forum of Designated Site Managers. However, for users, the procedures for applying to acquire pistols and justifying their eligibility are now largely in place.


Section 7 was established primarily for the purpose of the preservation, collecting, demonstration, research and study of pistols of historic or heritage interest. Pistols may be used at the sites of storage for these purposes alone, and section 7 of the Act does not permit target practice or competition. The Act, and the accompanying Guidance are helpful in defining the pistols that may be preserved. (See the Home Office web site for a copy of the Guidance to the Police - Chapter 9 is the section referring to Section 7 pistols.)


The applicant is required to demonstrate to the police that a pistol fulfils one or more of the criteria given in the law, and how these may be interpreted is can be found in the Guidance The specific examples given in the Guidance can be extrapolated to other types of pistol. ‘Good reason’ as used under section 1 of the Act does not apply to section 7. In fact the term ‘good reason’ is not included in section 7 of the Act. Whilst section 7(1) pistols may be kept ‘as part of a collection’, the good reason (or more accurately, qualification criterion) aspect for 7(3) is more diverse, relating to those headings in the law under which each pistol falls. The most important difference is that the pistol need not be part of a collection, although as discussed below, collection qualifies and is now a favoured criterion. Most forces will not accept a Section 1-style application for an open undefined variation for a pistol (e.g. ‘One .450 revolver’). Justification for a specific pistol is required for each variation, and commonly this comprises details of the make, model (if applicable) and serial number (to assist the police in verifying date of manufacture), date of manufacture (if already known to the applicant) and a statement demonstrating its eligibility according to one or more of the four tenets in primary legislation, namely: ‘historical importance’, ‘aesthetic quality’', ‘technical interest’, and ‘particular rarity’. Each of these is defined in the Guidance and this should be read and consulted by 7(3) certificate holders. It is sufficient for a pistol to fulfil one of these alone. For a more recent pistol (for example post WW2), an exponentially stronger justification is required. The qualification (or ‘good reason’') thus centres on the pistol itself under these circumstances. In addition, more common pistols are held to fall under the definition of ‘Historical Importance’ when they form part of a genuine collection, as detailed in paragraph 9.21iv of the Guidelines.


For difficult cases, the police have recourse to a Home Office Historic Arms Reference Panel of experts. Note, however, that, when a more common type pistol is allowed as part of a collection, its 7(3) status is not permanently assured. A subsequent buyer would have to make the case for it all over again. The police will usually advise, when granting the variation, that the pistol is not being given 7(3) status in its own right, but only as a coherent and logical part of an existing collection.


Commonly, the variation will be for the specific pistol and serial number requested, though on occasion in some police areas variations are made for a particular type of pistol, this gives the collector a certain leeway if there is a choice or ‘opportune’ moment.


Pistols are stored at Sites Designated by the Secretary of State. For maintenance, or, more commonly, refurbishment and conservation by gunsmiths, the authority of the issuing police is required in writing to the owner before the pistol may be moved from the site, and this by a section 5(1)(aba) dealer with a specific authority to transport such prohibited weapons. This includes pistols that are transported by section 5aba dealers on the behalf of owners for academic purposes such as research, study, and lectures (such as those given to the HBSA). In addition, 7.3 pistols may now be exhibited at some specified HBSA section 7 events, albeit under stringent conditions.


Ammunition is either bought or made at the site, or, if purchased away from the site, must be delivered there by the dealer from whom it is purchased. The only exception to this is when the Certificate holder owns a Section 1 firearm which uses the identical cartridge, and for which he is already permitted an ammunition holding under Section 1. Levels of ammunition holdings by the owner reflect the need as it would under section 1. Thus those undertaking regular research may be justified in requiring more than those who are not. On the other hand batch holdings of ammunition may be important to ensure consistency of performance between range attendances. Some cartridges are now hard to source or are in irregular supply. It must be noted that use is light in comparison to competitive shooting and practice, considering the pistols' ages and the type of use.


Acquiring Section 7 pistols has become more straightforward as the system has now been in use for some time. Many auction houses offer Section 5 pistols. Also many of the designated sites involve section 5(1)(aba) dealers who can supply or arrange delivery, including from abroad. The authority of the issuing Force is required by the owner before moving, as detailed earlier. Designated Sites are not permitted to deal in, or own, 7(3) pistols, but any section 5(1)(aba) RFD of course may do so.


It should be said that all of the Sites have been excellent in keeping access open to owners, and in seeking to accommodate them. In all cases they have had to work extremely hard to achieve the standards required to gain their authority. In many instances the Designated Site feature to a range is a ‘loss leader’, and a labour of love. Those who wish to extend their section 7 collections into section 7(3), who wish to move to a site closer to home, or otherwise need to use the section 7(3) scheme to preserve heritage pistols should contact their nearest Site.





tac