Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

yubabill

With new Covid-19 cases around 200 for last few days, it's time to start re-opening society, even if it's only the staged re-opening the gov't have.

Been holding off on saying this because we live near a busy road and the peace and quiet has been lovely.

Personally, I think the authorities are being too cautious with their re-opening plan and it calls to mind the last few weather warnings we had during the winter - I prepared for Armageddon once or twice and the last time I refused to believe that we were in for something severe - turns out the warning preceded what we used to call "a bit of bad weather" in the vernacular.

Cass

There is no way to be politically correct when discussing some topics so excuse anything that seems harsh, blunt or insensitive towards certain people.

On the news and in the papers it's reported that 61% of total deaths caused or believed to be caused by the Chinese virus are in nursing homes. That means of the 1,350 or so deaths in Ireland over 830 are in these facilities.

It could be said that the other 500 deaths is "only" at that level due to the lockdown but with rumors, now seemingly fact, that the Chinese virus was actually spreading since as early as November in some countries and supposedly December in Ireland that means for three to four months the virus has been here albeit unidentified.

Some might think i'm being paranoid or buying into conspiracy theories but even the CDC in the states have done an audit and found that of the 75,000 deaths in the US that over 30,000 have been falsely attributed to the Chinese virus with proof that hospitals and morgues have marked deaths as being because of the virus when no testing was done. This is not some internet blog claiming this, but if you go onto the CDC website they have a tracking function and shows the cause of all reported deaths and the number for the Chinese virus stands at 44,000 or so.

None of this is intended to try and prove a conspiracy or downplay the seriousness of this virus but rather to highlight that the lockdown seems to be doing more damage than good.

As i said before about Sweden and there plan was to isolate the most vulnerable and allow herd immunity which seems to have worked.

From my own perspective about the lockdown, the longer it continues the longer there is a risk. Bear with me on this as i might not be able to write what i want to say in a coherent way. If people have already, unknowingly, got the virus and either recovered or been asymptomatic they already have immunity from it, again without knowing. If other have not gotten it then the longer they are locked away with the virus still present then it means they either need to be exposed to the virus or wait for the vaccine.

With recovery rates at over 98% there could be a much larger section of the population that have built up an immunity/recovered and those that have not been exposed/infected are facing into a prolonged lockdown due to not knowing. Meaning this lockdown could be extended for quite some time and that is simply not possible nor financially viable.

The hospital ships and make shift hospitals in the states and other countries are reporting that due to low/no use they are being recalled/dismantled. In Ireland over 50% of the some 630 HSE consultants have claimed they have not been assigned any work/job and are "at a loose end" as elective surgeries and other treatments have been suspended.

The private hospitals are, according to some reports including those of Doctors and chief HSE staff unneeded and sitting "idle" yet are costing over €200,000 per day.

Testing in Ireland is still at an all time low, even by international standards, with approx. 1,800 to 2,000 tests per day being carried out and NOT the 15,000 per day that was promised. At this rate it'll take over a year to test everyone.

This post should NOT be taken as a "open everything up" again, 1st amendment type rant we are seeing in the states. There is reason to be cautious and in some circumstances there is a need to be very cautious as in the cases of nursing homes and care facilities, but this is simply not happening, and due to the failure of the Government we are facing into months more of lockdown which is without a doubt going to lead us into a recession, higher taxes, jobs gone forever due to closures of small businesses and on a political note the formation of an unwanted coalition Government "that must deal with this crisis". :rolleyes:

yubabill

Let's just say that most people would generally agree that the lockdown was a necessary evil and we went into it knowing that mistakes were going to be made and that there was going to be a large economic and social cost at the end.

Let's call it water under the bridge and let's hope that there is some kind of inquiry into the nursing/residential homes that seem to have been forgotten in the panic.

Let's move just a little more on from these things - we've flattened the curve, the hospitals were not overwhelmed (which was a real possibility), the weather is with us and let's deal with any second wave when or if it comes. Strong arguments for opening society back up.

Cass

yubabill wrote: »

Let's just say that most people would generally agree that the lockdown was a necessary evil and we went into it knowing that mistakes were going to be made and that there was going to be a large economic and social cost at the end.

But it could have been a little to much better.

There was a mass shutdown of all business bar food shopping, essentially. So why is Tesco safe but the local hardware not? Why is it when i'm in Tesco's can i go shop for food but the clothing section is closed off? I'm in the shop regardless.

This lockdown is still in place and only on May 18th do they slowly ease some restrictions. Meaning it'll be close to the end of the year before things start to resemble normal. Businesses won't last that long and the mistakes during the start of the lockdown are still being made.

Let's call it water under the bridge and let's hope that there is some kind of inquiry into the nursing/residential homes that seem to have been forgotten in the panic.

Its not just during this "event". In 2016 and 2017 a recent report showed there were 690 and 726 unexpected deaths in nursing homes and care facilities. That is almost double the rate of suicide in the same years.

The HSe have long been criticized for their handing and running of care homes and this virus has shown that they have doe nothing to improve the situation and highlights the true shortcomings of the system.

Let's move just a little more on from these things - we've flattened the curve, the hospitals were not overwhelmed (which was a real possibility), the weather is with us and let's deal with any second wave when or if it comes.

We don't know that the "curve has been flattened" (excuse me but i hate these buzz phrases, like the new normal, etc.) because we have no idea of numbers infected, recovered, and how long the virus has been in the country before reporting started.

This is because of the piss poor handling in the past, which you rightly pointed cannot be changed, but the fact it continues to be handled poorly and with no plan other than to lock the place down and give Gardaí enormous powers of arrest while releasing prisoners (IOW virtue signalling) and with testing at 12-15% of what it should be there seems to be no hurry to correct past mistakes.

Strong arguments for opening society back up.

If we got through December to February (actually into March) without a black plague level of deaths and were ignorant of the danger the Chinese virus posed then there is a really strong case of partial herd immunity, or at the very least opening the country back up more than what is planned and a little faster.

Treating all people the same will not work. Certain sectors can open up immediately, others should never have been closed and then there is the issue of the people themselves. Ovr 65s should be protected above all else and those with underlying medical conditions, but for most others the risk is nominal.


Again all just my own opinions. I'm not a GP, epidemiologist or virologist so i've nothing else bar my own opinion, but slowly more and more facts are emerging saying statements and things said early at the start of this "pandemic" were actually true.

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

But it could have been a little to much better.

There was a mass shutdown of all business bar food shopping, essentially. So why is Tesco safe but the local hardware not? Why is it when i'm in Tesco's can i go shop for food but the clothing section is closed off? I'm in the shop regardless.

This lockdown is still in place and only on May 18th do they slowly ease some restrictions. Meaning it'll be close to the end of the year before things start to resemble normal. Businesses won't last that long and the mistakes during the start of the lockdown are still being made.


Its not just during this "event". In 2016 and 2017 a recent report showed there were 690 and 726 unexpected deaths in nursing homes and care facilities. That is almost double the rate of suicide in the same years.

The HSe have long been criticized for their handing and running of care homes and this virus has shown that they have doe nothing to improve the situation and highlights the true shortcomings of the system.


We don't know that the "curve has been flattened" (excuse me but i hate these buzz phrases, like the new normal, etc.) because we have no idea of numbers infected, recovered, and how long the virus has been in the country before reporting started.

This is because of the piss poor handling in the past, which you rightly pointed cannot be changed, but the fact it continues to be handled poorly and with no plan other than to lock the place down and give Gardaí enormous powers of arrest while releasing prisoners (IOW virtue signalling) and with testing at 12-15% of what it should be there seems to be no hurry to correct past mistakes.

If we got through December to February (actually into March) without a black plague level of deaths and were ignorant of the danger the Chinese virus posed then there is a really strong case of partial herd immunity, or at the very least opening the country back up more than what is planned and a little faster.

Treating all people the same will not work. Certain sectors can open up immediately, others should never have been closed and then there is the issue of the people themselves. Ovr 65s should be protected above all else and those with underlying medical conditions, but for most others the risk is nominal.


Again all just my own opinions. I'm not a GP, epidemiologist or virologist so i've nothing else bar my own opinion, but slowly more and more facts are emerging saying statements and things said early at the start of this "pandemic" were actually true.

Amen to that. I could have had the place painted and like something out of gardeners world if i could have got 10 minutes in a hardware or garden shop.

Grizzly 45

One other thing this lockdown is not helping,is our own healthy immune systems. Us humans,do need to meet others and get dirty and breathe in others bacteria and virus.Its how we stay healthy as our immune systems then kick into fight them. Without meeting foregin bodies and bacterias and whatnot,our body loses this edge and gets a weaker immune system as well making it less capable of fighting off things we wouldnt think twice of in everyday life.

tudderone

Don't forget the economy is in the poo again, something people seem to have forgotten about. The worst recession since the 1930's they reckon. The Kung-flu didn't cause it, there was going to be a recession anyway, but it has not helped.

yubabill

Cass wrote: »

But it could have been a little to much better.

There was a mass shutdown of all business bar food shopping, essentially. So why is Tesco safe but the local hardware not? Why is it when i'm in Tesco's can i go shop for food but the clothing section is closed off? I'm in the shop regardless.

This lockdown is still in place and only on May 18th do they slowly ease some restrictions. Meaning it'll be close to the end of the year before things start to resemble normal. Businesses won't last that long and the mistakes during the start of the lockdown are still being made.


Its not just during this "event". In 2016 and 2017 a recent report showed there were 690 and 726 unexpected deaths in nursing homes and care facilities. That is almost double the rate of suicide in the same years.

The HSe have long been criticized for their handing and running of care homes and this virus has shown that they have doe nothing to improve the situation and highlights the true shortcomings of the system.


We don't know that the "curve has been flattened" (excuse me but i hate these buzz phrases, like the new normal, etc.) because we have no idea of numbers infected, recovered, and how long the virus has been in the country before reporting started.

This is because of the piss poor handling in the past, which you rightly pointed cannot be changed, but the fact it continues to be handled poorly and with no plan other than to lock the place down and give Gardaí enormous powers of arrest while releasing prisoners (IOW virtue signalling) and with testing at 12-15% of what it should be there seems to be no hurry to correct past mistakes.

If we got through December to February (actually into March) without a black plague level of deaths and were ignorant of the danger the Chinese virus posed then there is a really strong case of partial herd immunity, or at the very least opening the country back up more than what is planned and a little faster.

Treating all people the same will not work. Certain sectors can open up immediately, others should never have been closed and then there is the issue of the people themselves. Ovr 65s should be protected above all else and those with underlying medical conditions, but for most others the risk is nominal.


Again all just my own opinions. I'm not a GP, epidemiologist or virologist so i've nothing else bar my own opinion, but slowly more and more facts are emerging saying statements and things said early at the start of this "pandemic" were actually true.

For anyone who knows me, I'm the last one who would defend Leo.

And I despise the fact that he fell into the Covid situation with nothing to lose (third place in the election; sword over his neck as FG leader; making ready for the next Taoiseach) so he could afford to ignore politics and follow the advice he was getting, thus falling into favour with the general populace.

But we are at risk of a pretty severe social backlash as life begins to return to normal and I don't see either anyone wanting to pay for this lockdown, or wanting to return to another lockdown in August, when the 'flu season traditionally begins to rear its head every year.

Hence the soft words, not that I don't see the things that were done wrong and not least the despicable way patients were treated in St. Fintan's, Portlaoise; staff had to go on FB to raise money for PPE (maybe the same stuff the media showed being delivered by AGS). Primetime did a lovely hatchet job on them, like they did on us.

But we need to be careful when things start to open again is all I'm saying. Some people have been affected much more than others and it's going to be a bit of a tinderbox. Thankfully, I and my family have had a relatively easy time of it, hope you guys have had similar.

Cass

This is not Oprah so i won't regale you with "tales of woe", but my parents are both disabled and my Mother in particular has a host of ailments and serious illnesses, two of which are immune suppressant variety meaning she is more vulnerable than most to this disease. As their caretaker i'm forced to go out, shop, run errands, basically mingle with people and in the small town i'm closest too you'd think there was no virus with the town almost as busy as ever since the lockdown and people crowded around each other like Brown's cows.

So i'm not ignorant to the situation, nor am i blind to the hidden dangers of it to the more vulnerable.

All i'm trying to discuss is the mistakes which were made, how they impact current and future actions and the ramifications of those actions as we all move forward to getting our lives back.

Again i'm come off somewhat right wing, conservative, constitutionally adherent, but i'm not, well not so much i cannot listen to reason.

At the risk of repeating myself so soon after saying it above the changes/actions/restrictions put in place seem rushed, poorly/not thought out, and frankly poorly enacted (AGS powers, prisoner release, fining/jailing people simply for being outside, etc.)

It rather worries me how quickly people utterly surrendered their rights, and they are constitutional rights, and handed over their entire lives to the Government. Its essentially a 30 free trial of socialism. The end result being we're now facing a recession within a decade of the last one, which we haven't come close to paying for yet.

Not to mention that the "soup drinkers" have appeared in force, something i have not seen since the early 80s, calling AGS and other authorities when they see people out walking, or simply outside. Ireland is supposed to be a proud country of proud people that fought for it's freedom but we never lost that "stick the knife in" attitude when it comes to..... narking?...... ratting?...... on others. Its an ugly trait, but well and truly alive.

If i'm being honest my life hasn't actually changed that much. I don't go out much other than to shops, run errands, etc. but when i was doing social distancing it was called being an ignorant pr**k

My sport and my shooting is my only avenue of relaxation. It has both physical and mental health benefits. For two months it's been gone and according to the easing of restrictions it could be two weeks to another two months before i can do it again. Shooting can be, and for the most is, a solitary sport and one that even if i used to go out with mates, i can do alone with ease. So why the long, drawn out easing of restrictions on it? Because those making the rules haven't a clue and to me they seem to be following suit from other countries or doing whatever they think will get the "pat on the head" form the EU. That is a little cynical, but not too far from the truth i'd imagine.

tudderone

The crusties are up in arms, over this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/08/anglers-shooting-bowling-lobbyists-lockdown-contact-coronavirus

yubabill

Cass wrote: »

This is not Oprah so i won't regale you with "tales of woe", but my parents are both disabled and my Mother in particular has a host of ailments and serious illnesses, two of which are immune suppressant variety meaning she is more vulnerable than most to this disease. As their caretaker i'm forced to go out, shop, run errands, basically mingle with people and in the small town i'm closest too you'd think there was no virus with the town almost as busy as ever since the lockdown and people crowded around each other like Brown's cows.

So i'm not ignorant to the situation, nor am i blind to the hidden dangers of it to the more vulnerable.

All i'm trying to discuss is the mistakes which were made, how they impact current and future actions and the ramifications of those actions as we all move forward to getting our lives back.

Again i'm come off somewhat right wing, conservative, constitutionally adherent, but i'm not, well not so much i cannot listen to reason.

At the risk of repeating myself so soon after saying it above the changes/actions/restrictions put in place seem rushed, poorly/not thought out, and frankly poorly enacted (AGS powers, prisoner release, fining/jailing people simply for being outside, etc.)

It rather worries me how quickly people utterly surrendered their rights, and they are constitutional rights, and handed over their entire lives to the Government. Its essentially a 30 free trial of socialism. The end result being we're now facing a recession within a decade of the last one, which we haven't come close to paying for yet.

Not to mention that the "soup drinkers" have appeared in force, something i have not seen since the early 80s, calling AGS and other authorities when they see people out walking, or simply outside. Ireland is supposed to be a proud country of proud people that fought for it's freedom but we never lost that "stick the knife in" attitude when it comes to..... narking?...... ratting?...... on others. Its an ugly trait, but well and truly alive.

If i'm being honest my life hasn't actually changed that much. I don't go out much other than to shops, run errands, etc. but when i was doing social distancing it was called being an ignorant pr**k

My sport and my shooting is my only avenue of relaxation. It has both physical and mental health benefits. For two months it's been gone and according to the easing of restrictions it could be two weeks to another two months before i can do it again. Shooting can be, and for the most is, a solitary sport and one that even if i used to go out with mates, i can do alone with ease. So why the long, drawn out easing of restrictions on it? Because those making the rules haven't a clue and to me they seem to be following suit from other countries or doing whatever they think will get the "pat on the head" form the EU. That is a little cynical, but not too far from the truth i'd imagine.

Agreed the lockdown could have been done better.

Agreed we rolled over without much of a whimper (TCO 1972, anyone?).

Agreed it's nanny state socialism liberalism.

I know your home situation from previous posts and it doesn't sound fun, but I always look at adverse situations this way: There's always someone worse off - maybe some poor lad like me, but in a cancer ward or something. Helps me break the "ropes of sand" that bind me into situations.

Wrt shooting, I'm sure we can get a rabbit for food, if we want anytime.

The pat on the head from the EU crowd are right now feeling very nervous, as the EU begin to panic over the implications of a WTO Brexit; a German court ruled against ECB bond-buying and the EU over-ruled it, but the dispute is a sign of the times and more to come IMHO
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52542993

Grizzly 45

What grinds my gears the most about this is .
That expensive sin bin/rest home/nursery tacked onto the Dail AKA the Senad,that has the most gobbiest,opinionated,full of their own sht politicans that have ever walked this land.
They are quick to denounce any slight of democracy in the Middle East,the USA.Trump,Israel,minority groups [bar gunowners of course]both home and abroad are stuck up for no problem and others.
But they didn't have much to say for themselves when the Dail introduced a dictatorship lite legislation on this country until Nov 2022 in March of this year.Just sat there like a bunch of frightned little rabbits and passed it without a moments debate.:mad::mad:
If they are supposedly the gaurdians of the constitution and of our civil and democratic rights,we are utterly goosed in that case here,and its all the more reason to demolish that wing both figuratively and literally of Leinster house.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

What grinds my gears the most about this is .
That expensive sin bin/rest home/nursery tacked onto the Dail AKA the Senad,that has the most gobbiest,opinionated,full of their own sht politicans that have ever walked this land.
They are quick to denounce any slight of democracy in the Middle East,the USA.Trump,Israel,minority groups [bar gunowners of course]both home and abroad are stuck up for no problem and others.
But they didn't have much to say for themselves when the Dail introduced a dictatorship lite legislation on this country until Nov 2022 in March of this year.Just sat there like a bunch of frightned little rabbits and passed it without a moments debate.:mad::mad:
If they are supposedly the gaurdians of the constitution and of our civil and democratic rights,we are utterly goosed in that case here,and its all the more reason to demolish that wing both figuratively and literally of Leinster house.

Its easy to be an expert on the sidelines though. Different matter when you are the one making the decisions, and the buck stops at your door. That senad is something that needs killing off, but seeing as most of those calling for its demise are now resident in the bloody place, thats wishful thinking.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

It rather worries me how quickly people utterly surrendered their rights, and they are constitutional rights, and handed over their entire lives to the Government. Its essentially a 30 free trial of socialism. The end result being we're now facing a recession within a decade of the last one, which we haven't come close to paying for yet.

yubabill wrote: »

Agreed we rolled over without much of a whimper (TCO 1972, anyone?).

You guys are getting into Gemma O'Doherty territory there, talking about constitutional rights, surrender and rolling over etc.

Social distancing is the only thing we know at the moment that works against the virus therefore it needed to be implemented very very quickly. And that is what happened. It had to be forced upon people because, lets face it, people are fcuking stupid. Look at the street parties, the carry on of the knackers in the Curragh, feck, there are loads of examples.........everyone of us have seen plenty of instances where there is no social distancing going on at the moment even with the imposition of lockdown laws.

How many would die from the virus if we did nothing and kept everything open and didn't force people to engage in social distancing? Good chance most of our parents (if they are still around) would be in for a fight. Maybe myself too seeing as I am obese which seemingly is a very high risk factor, and I also have mild asthma.

And yes, the lockdown is going to kill our economy but with the rest of the world's economy heading into the sh1tter, we would have been pulled down eitherways. Hopefully the number of infections will stay low as the roadmap to stuff opening up kicks in and we can start some sort of recovery going.

I'm no supporter of this Government, so I'm putting my neck on the the chopping block here but I'm going to say the Government were pretty much right to implement the lockdown the way they did. Could they have done better, most definitely. Should the roadmap for opening up again be revisited, probably. Nothing is ever perfect, but they got a lot of the stuff right.

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

Its easy to be an expert on the sidelines though. Different matter when you are the one making the decisions, and the buck stops at your door. That senad is something that needs killing off, but seeing as most of those calling for its demise are now resident in the bloody place, thats wishful thinking.

The Seanad and the Senators within are above reproach.

In one of the national newspapers today it was reported that Fianna Fail Senator Mark Daly from Kerry had forgotten to declare ownership of a house he purchased in Dublin.

It could happen to a Bishop, but to a Senator who also happens to be an auctioneer?

The paper disclosed that the particular property in question cost him the exact equivalent of 50,000 in old Irish pounds.

There's nothing wrong with that except he bought it in 2019 at a time when other properties in the area were selling for between 295,000 to 360,000 euro and one property in the same area sold for 595,000 euro.

tudderone

Rows Grower wrote: »

The Seanad and the Senators within are above reproach.

In one of the national newspapers today it was reported that Fianna Fail Senator Mark Daly from Kerry had forgotten to declare ownership of a house he purchased in Dublin.

It could happen to a Bishop, but to a Senator who also happens to be an auctioneer?

The paper disclosed that the particular property in question cost him the exact equivalent of 50,000 in old Irish pounds.

There's nothing wrong with that except he bought it in 2019 at a time when other properties in the area were selling for between 295,000 to 360,000 euro and one property in the same area sold for 595,000 euro.

"Arrrrah, sure isn't he a gash-man all the same". The ould Irish cap-doffing attitude, that defies logic completely.

tudderone

BattleCorp wrote: »

You guys are getting into Gemma O'Doherty territory there, talking about constitutional rights, surrender and rolling over etc.

Social distancing is the only thing we know at the moment that works against the virus therefore it needed to be implemented very very quickly. And that is what happened. It had to be forced upon people because, lets face it, people are fcuking stupid. Look at the street parties, the carry on of the knackers in the Curragh, feck, there are loads of examples.........everyone of us have seen plenty of instances where there is no social distancing going on at the moment even with the imposition of lockdown laws.

How many would die from the virus if we did nothing and kept everything open and didn't force people to engage in social distancing? Good chance most of our parents (if they are still around) would be in for a fight. Maybe myself too seeing as I am obese which seemingly is a very high risk factor, and I also have mild asthma.

And yes, the lockdown is going to kill our economy but with the rest of the world's economy heading into the sh1tter, we would have been pulled down eitherways. Hopefully the number of infections will stay low as the roadmap to stuff opening up kicks in and we can start some sort of recovery going.

I'm no supporter of this Government, so I'm putting my neck on the the chopping block here but I'm going to say the Government were pretty much right to implement the lockdown the way they did. Could they have done better, most definitely. Should the roadmap for opening up again be revisited, probably. Nothing is ever perfect, but they got a lot of the stuff right.

The thing is though, does social distancing work ? Sweden didn't do it, some eastern european didn't either and they are nowhere near the death toll of Italy, Spain, the UK and America etc.

Also the death toll is pretty similar to the amount of deaths that happen every year with ordinary flu's. The elderly and people with under lying health issues being the main groups to die.

If it doesn't end soon no one will have a job to go back to.

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

The thing is though, does social distancing work ? Sweden didn't do it, some eastern european didn't either and they are nowhere near the death toll of Italy, Spain, the UK and America etc.

Also the death toll is pretty similar to the amount of deaths that happen every year with ordinary flu's. The elderly and people with under lying health issues being the main groups to die.

If it doesn't end soon no one will have a job to go back to.

Ehh, Sweden are well above the other Nordic countries death toll and rising.

Grizzly 45

Sweden did do social distancing,they didnt go into full lockdown.But if you know the Abba landers,they are pretty germ phobic anyway to a point of being neurotic about it.So it was no biggie for them to socially isolate or stay from each other.
Jury is still out at this point ,did it work for them or not.But it seems ,whether you lockdown a country or not,this disease has to run its course through the pouplation,as apprently the stats arent showing much of a difference in reducing deaths by either methods.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

"Arrrrah, sure isn't he a gash-man all the same". The ould Irish cap-doffing attitude, that defies logic completely.

Is there any hope for us,when we have politicans taking pride in their nicknames like "the stroke" up in Galway? Or we keep voting in gowls like Lowery in Nth Tipp,because he has the GAA in his backpocket up there? Micks the man to go see if the under 10s need new kit,or the pitch needs returfing or whatever.
Same as the flatcap dynasty in Kerry. Granny needs the new hip?Off to Belfast with her by private bus. And for how long did we enjoy getting reamed by Irelands answer to the Causceaus up in Kinsealy manor ??:mad:
All politics is local...

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Is there any hope for us,when we have politicans taking pride in their nicknames like "the stroke" up in Galway? Or we keep voting in gowls like Lowery in Nth Tipp,because he has the GAA in his backpocket up there? Micks the man to go see if the under 10s need new kit,or the pitch needs returfing or whatever.
Same as the flatcap dynasty in Kerry. Granny needs the new hip?Off to Belfast with her by private bus. And for how long did we enjoy getting reamed by Irelands answer to the Causceaus up in Kinsealy manor ??:mad:
All politics is local...

I know, the barefaced cheek of it. It will never change either i don't think. Same all over the world, look at Europe, a convicted criminal running the central bank, and a proven incompetent running the european commission. Even poor old Obama looks like he is in trouble again and he is retired.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

You guys are getting into Gemma O'Doherty territory there, talking about constitutional rights, surrender and rolling over etc.

Ah here, no need for name calling.

If i ever started to go around like some numpty looking for confrontations with An Gardaí on the streets just so i can livestream it on social media, like the attention seeking so and so that she is, i'd kick my own arse.

One thing i will say, and the fact she thinks along the ame lines, only more extreme, is when our rights are taken form us so easily and with our full co-operation then it's not a right, it's a permission. What happens the next time its used and "emergency powers" are introduced for something not so serious? At what point do we draw a line and say, enough.

Social distancing is the only thing we know at the moment that works against the virus therefore it needed to be implemented very very quickly. ............... but I'm going to say the Government were pretty much right to implement the lockdown the way they did.

This virus was here for nearly or over four months before anyone realised what it was. That was a rumor a month ago, confirmed this week and reported in the papers back in December.

Could they have done better, most definitely. Should the roadmap for opening up again be revisited, probably. Nothing is ever perfect, but they got a lot of the stuff right.

They got nothing right.

They implemented a ban four months after the Chinese virus was here. now that is not their fault as China hid the spread of this virus. However they waited from the end of January until the middle of March, knowing what the virus was, to implement a lockdown and still the elderly and most vulnerable are dying.

• No travel ban was implemented as EU does not allow for it and Leo won't dare disobey his EU masters
• less than 2,000 test per day are being done, less than 15% of the promised amount
• The so called health Minister refused testing kits,
• Leo ignored pleas from Tom Holohan to refuse entry to the Italian rugby fans and not allow travel to Cheltenham
• Then paid tens of millions for private hospital beds that were not needed instead of focuSing on Nursing homes and care facilities WHICH IS STILL HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

Which one of those action, as well as what i wrote above, seem the right move to you?

These politicians, and its not a typical rant on their wages, will still receive their salary, expenses, etc. regardless of the financial situation we find ourselves in by the end of the year or next year. So when there is no threat to their income, they can be as cavalier as they wish.

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

• No travel ban was implemented as EU does not allow for it and Leo won't dare disobey his EU masters
• less than 2,000 test per day are being done, less than 15% of the promised amount
• The so called health Minister refused testing kits,
• Leo ignored pleas from Tom Holohan to refuse entry to the Italian rugby fans and not allow travel to Cheltenham
• Then paid tens of millions for private hospital beds that were not needed instead of focuSing on Nursing homes and care facilities WHICH IS STILL HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

Which one of those action, as well as what i wrote above, seem the right move to you?

These politicians, and its not a typical rant on their wages, will still receive their salary, expenses, etc. regardless of the financial situation we find ourselves in by the end of the year or next year. So when there is no threat to their income, they can be as cavalier as they wish.

Leo was about the only one not to close the borders in a flash, the French, Germans etc did it in a blink of an eye.

The cheltenham festival, and other big race meetings should have been stopped, its known that did spread the virus, the alligations is they were going to be stopped, but lobbying behind the scenes kept them open. A scandal if true.

True about the td's and ministers getting their pay regardless, and its unfair, there could be a return to 1980's levels of unemployment here in the months and years ahead.

Rows Grower

Cass wrote: »

Ah here, no need for name calling.

If i ever started to go around like some numpty looking for confrontations with An Gardaí on the streets just so i can livestream it on social media, like the attention seeking so and so that she is, i'd kick my own arse.

One thing i will say, and the fact she thinks along the ame lines, only more extreme, is when our rights are taken form us so easily and with our full co-operation then it's not a right, it's a permission. What happens the next time its used and "emergency powers" are introduced for something not so serious? At what point do we draw a line and say, enough.


This virus was here for nearly or over four months before anyone realised what it was. That was a rumor a month ago, confirmed this week and reported in the papers back in December.

They got nothing right.

They implemented a ban four months after the Chinese virus was here. now that is not their fault as China hid the spread of this virus. However they waited from the end of January until the middle of March, knowing what the virus was, to implement a lockdown and still the elderly and most vulnerable are dying.

[*]No travel ban was implemented as EU does not allow for it and Leo won't dare disobey his EU masters
[*]less than 2,000 test per day are being done, less than 15% of the promised amount
[*]The so called health Minister refused testing kits,
[*]Leo ignored pleas from Tom Holohan to refuse entry to the Italian rugby fans and not allow travel to Cheltenham
[*]Then paid tens of millions for private hospital beds that were not needed instead of focuSing on Nursing homes and care facilities WHICH IS STILL HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

Which one of those action, as well as what i wrote above, seem the right move to you?

These politicians, and its not a typical rant on their wages, will still receive their salary, expenses, etc. regardless of the financial situation we find ourselves in by the end of the year or next year. So when there is no threat to their income, they can be as cavalier as they wish.

The whole lock down facade is a joke when we have airports and ferries open allowing people in from other countries with no sense nor meaning or justification.

A five year old child will explain that to anyone if you show them a map.

Cheltenham going ahead and the Italian rugby crowds left visit here anyway because they booked and paid for the flights was ridiculous.

Hello? Who made these decisions? Someone did.

The nursing homes were the first to take the decision to stop all visitors, even from immediate family against all popular opinion, and then they were instructed by the government to reverse that decision.

More than half of all the deaths are over 85 years old in a country that has been warning us all about a pension time bomb in the making for the last twenty years.

Hello?

Who is actually in charge of the country after we have just had an election to decide?

The ex TD's and Ministers are still getting travel allowances on top of their full wage and other expenses, Shane Ross got the long awaited boot from the people that elected him years ago and he is still getting a minister's wage as well as a TD's wage, the other person who was democratically elected in his place is also getting full pay.

Hello?

The Greens are somehow in denial of the whole situation and want an assurance that above all else before they will agree to support any government (for the short term) to run our country, the government will have to agree to tax the living **** out of heating our homes and fueling our transport.

Sound, pass around the lettuce seeds there and we'll all be grand.

Credit where it is due, Leo and Simon have gone way up in my estimation for the way they have communicated to the people, especially the elderly, in the last couple of months but in all truthfulness the only way was up with the pair of them.

There is a long hard road ahead no doubt about it but shur look tough times don't last, tough people do. Stay safe and healthy everyone

Tóg go bog é.

Mellor

tudderone wrote: »

Also the death toll is pretty similar to the amount of deaths that happen every year with ordinary flu's. The elderly and people with under lying health issues being the main groups to die.

People keep saying the amount of deaths are similar to flu. But its really not. Some of the memes from a month ago look very naive now (well, they were naive then too, but not it's obvious now).

Around 300-400 people die from flu in ireland. Covid is closing in on 1500.
In the states and the UK, it has also killed multiple times the flu numbers.

And those are social distanced covid, vrs no social distance flu. Flu numbers would be down with social distancing too, or covid would be much higher if unchecked.

yubabill

Whatever about picking over the bones of the lockdown, we are demonstrably coming out the other side and there is a case to be made for opening up the economy more quickly.

Of course, we should keep a close eye on the virus and its spread with a view towards reducing interactions if it goes the wrong way.

The biggest argument for getting going again is what's happening in the EU - as in my last post, Germany's constitutional court (they retained the supremacy of their constitution over EU law) have ruled that the ECB bond-buying strategy is against their constitution and as they are the ECB's biggest contributors, that is a bit of an earthquake which hasn't dawned on many people yet, not least the EU itself - word is that they, and Merkel, will try to ignore the German ruling (good luck with that);

https://www.ft.com/content/fc487cac-9105-11ea-9207-ace009a12028

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2020/html/ecb.pr200505~00a09107a9.en.html

Mellor

yubabill wrote: »

Whatever about picking over the bones of the lockdown, we are demonstrably coming out the other side and there is a case to be made for opening up the economy more quickly.

I agree .The active cases are dropping the whole time. Still pretty high, but should be able to forecast the trend from here.
The timing of re-opening is critical. As was the lockdown timing to be begin with. Closing too early means people don't take it seriously (some of the comments online were terrible in early days). Plus the economy suffers more from the longer shutdown.
But too late obviously comes with its own obvious issues.

Grizzly 45

Mellor wrote: »

P
Around 300-400 people die from flu in ireland. Covid is closing in on 1500.
In the states and the UK, it has also killed multiple times the flu numbers.
.

Depends too on how they are counting it.Fact checked and proven true,just about every hospital death in NYC recently has been Covid,simply because its better busisness and more money from uncle sam. Dying of incurable cancer in the cancer ward?Shove them up to the Covid pit.They die up there..Covid 19 death. 10 thousand dollars please and thanks! Die of somthing normal and boring ,we only get 3thousand dollars.
All about how healthy you the patients and the doctors bank account is.

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Depends too on how they are counting it.Fact checked and proven true,just about every hospital death in NYC recently has been Covid,simply because its better busisness and more money from uncle sam. Dying of incurable cancer in the cancer ward?Shove them up to the Covid pit.They die up there..Covid 19 death. 10 thousand dollars please and thanks! Die of somthing normal and boring ,we only get 3thousand dollars.
All about how healthy you the patients and the doctors bank account is.

But that doesn’t apply in ireland afaik. The deaths have already greatly surpassed flu. So the idea that they will be the same didn’t happen.

Some countries are possibly inflating numbers. And others countries were minimising numbers at the other end. Like somebody dying from covid while undergoing cancer treatment gets filled in the cancer column. Aside from outright lying a huge problem is countries recording data differently.

tudderone

yubabill wrote: »

Whatever about picking over the bones of the lockdown, we are demonstrably coming out the other side and there is a case to be made for opening up the economy more quickly.

Of course, we should keep a close eye on the virus and its spread with a view towards reducing interactions if it goes the wrong way.

The biggest argument for getting going again is what's happening in the EU - as in my last post, Germany's constitutional court (they retained the supremacy of their constitution over EU law) have ruled that the ECB bond-buying strategy is against their constitution and as they are the ECB's biggest contributors, that is a bit of an earthquake which hasn't dawned on many people yet, not least the EU itself - word is that they, and Merkel, will try to ignore the German ruling (good luck with that);

https://www.ft.com/content/fc487cac-9105-11ea-9207-ace009a12028

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2020/html/ecb.pr200505~00a09107a9.en.html

I see the eu commission have attacked germany and warned them about the covid debt bonds, and their court ruling the other day. You would have to wonder at the wisdom of attacking the only country that really putting serious money into your organistion. Biting the hand that feeds.