Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

The masks are not to stop you getting the virus, they are to stop you unknowingly exhaling the virus. I was looking at masks in Lidl (i only shop in the swanky places) and they have a lot of masks on sale. Each mask has a disclaimer saying "This mask is not for medical use" or something along those lines, so what use are they ?

And this is a prime fallacy of this" masks help stop the spread of the virus" BS

How does a mask of any type work?
The idea is it is a wearable barrier to allow you to inhale "pure air" from a contaminated enviroment via a filtration system. Be that a bit of cloth or a state of the art picogram filter in a NBC respirator.
Trouble is you also have to exhale as well,and if you have knowingly or unknowingly this virus all you are doing is with your fancy nask,exhaling it out via the exhale valve which does not have a filter to catch the virus.Wearing a paper or cloth is just as dangerous,as you are building up your virus load in a warm damp enviroment and rebreathing it.

Does it help if you are sneezing and coughing? Without a doubt,and initially that is WHY the Chinese and Japanese wear them ,if they have a case of the sniffles...But what the Hell are you doing out in public anyway in that case these days?
So tell me again how does this work if you dont have the virus and havent been working in a meat plant and are perfectly healthy and not yelling at anyone to prevent this spreading?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And this is a prime fallacy of this" masks help stop the spread of the virus" BS

How does a mask of any type work?
The idea is it is a wearable barrier to allow you to inhale "pure air" from a contaminated enviroment via a filtration system. Be that a bit of cloth or a state of the art picogram filter in a NBC respirator.
Trouble is you also have to exhale as well,and if you have knowingly or unknowingly this virus all you are doing is with your fancy nask,exhaling it out via the exhale valve which does not have a filter to catch the virus.Wearing a paper or cloth is just as dangerous,as you are building up your virus load in a warm damp enviroment and rebreathing it.

Does it help if you are sneezing and coughing? Without a doubt,and initially that is WHY the Chinese and Japanese wear them ,if they have a case of the sniffles...But what the Hell are you doing out in public anyway in that case these days?
So tell me again how does this work if you dont have the virus and havent been working in a meat plant and are perfectly healthy and not yelling at anyone to prevent this spreading?

Whats going to happen when flu season arrives in a month or two ? You wake up after being out and about the previous day, going about your business, mixing with other people, and you have a cough and a temperature.

What do you have, flu or covid, what do you do, who do you contact, how do you know ? The GP's are rushed off their feet in the winter as it is. It could be the perfect storm.

civdef

Just to throw in a few bits on some points that came up here.

That disclaimer on boxes of masks "not for medical use" or similar is because there are very strict product testing & approval standards for PPE. You can't just start making respirators / masks and put them on the market without expensive testing (it's illegal) . The disclaimer is to get around this, in normal times that wouldn't fly, but hey. In practice if they're constructed from the the same materials and in the same way as an approved product, they'll work the same.


As regards masks effectiveness to prevent spread, the scientific consensus is definitely that masks / face coverings are worthwhile:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html#recent-studies

I'm in Laois too, the LOKdown totally messed up my plans for the last 2 weeks, and we weren't the epicentre of it, but 2 weeks ago the lockdown here was justified based on the numbers - the 14 day incidence rate here was very high. It turned out that it decreased a lot quicker here because of the fact it wasn't spreading in the community in Laois and was limited to a couple of sites, but hindsight is great.


Back to outdoor sporting activities and how it affects things like shooting ranges - these rules by their very nature tend to be blunt instruments. If you cover every scenario the rules would be impossibly complex and people couldn't follow them. We're going to be doing this for the next year or so, hopefully more flexible rules evolve over the next while, and we all get used to getting on with it.

Grizzly 45

If they want to "self isolate" AKA go into a [in]voulintary house arrest for their benefit?
I'm putting this out as I have an 85 year old mother ,who is still thankfully all there but is also one of the at risk group due to age and health,and she is not going to do this "self isolation" lark again if there is another lockdown.
Nor am I going to become her jailer either!! Why...?Well simply as she has said herself,"This Covid is a robber of the time I and anyone of my age have left!" And that is vey true,when you get past mid 50[thats me!].you start to realise,your "appointment in Samara"[Google it,great parable] is drawing near too.So once you are in the 80s,it is now an inevitability,and every day is not a given anymore.,and you begin to accept that point of your mortality.

So is it fair to basically jail our elders"for their own good and health" if they have very little time left on this Earth? I would hate to end up in "Numberd days nursing home" being not permitted to leave my room and socialise with other old coots,having my gruel brought to me and pushed into my room by an NBC suited staff member who cant stop or talk because of the risk to me.
If anything,old folks need MORE social interaction than us youngsters to keep from going dementeia,so locking them up and isolating is actually doing more damage to them than we realise.
If anyone has ever done time in a jail,this sounds like a good description of solitary confinement,with better facilities and more room in your jail cell.
you can transcribe it too back to you living still at home if you are lucky and still able to do so.

So maybe lets ask our last of the magnificant generation,what they would like to do...They survived a world war and are a damn sight tougher still than us Gen Xers and the Millenials we breed. They haven't long anymore either,and I personally think they have a right to decide how they spend their last days on this Earth.

civdef

Fancy N95 (that's an American term, here it's called FFP2 or FFP3) respirators aren't actually suitable for everyday wear where the intent is to reduce spread at source - because they have an exhalation vent.

That's also handy because they're still in short enough supply for people who actually need them (going into a known contaminated environment). They've also risen in price by a factor of 10 or so in the last 6 months.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Whats going to happen when flu season arrives in a month or two ? You wake up after being out and about the previous day, going about your business, mixing with other people, and you have a cough and a temperature.

What do you have, flu or covid, what do you do, who do you contact, how do you know ? The GP's are rushed off their feet in the winter as it is. It could be the perfect storm.

Belive it or not.I doubt this year the flu season will be bad! Simply because we are doing everything that prevents flu from spreading.Social distancing,washing hands,etc.so it is hard for influenza to move under those conditions.

Heckler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If they want to "self isolate" AKA go into a [in]voulintary house arrest for their benefit?
I'm putting this out as I have an 85 year old mother ,who is still thankfully all there but is also one of the at risk group due to age and health,and she is not going to do this "self isolation" lark again if there is another lockdown.
Nor am I going to become her jailer either!! Why...?Well simply as she has said herself,"This Covid is a robber of the time I and anyone of my age have left!" And that is vey true,when you get past mid 50[thats me!].you start to realise,your "appointment in Samara"[Google it,great parable] is drawing near too.So once you are in the 80s,it is now an inevitability,and every day is not a given anymore.,and you begin to accept that point of your mortality.

So is it fair to basically jail our elders"for their own good and health" if they have very little time left on this Earth? I would hate to end up in "Numberd days nursing home" being not permitted to leave my room and socialise with other old coots,having my gruel brought to me and pushed into my room by an NBC suited staff member who cant stop or talk because of the risk to me.
If anything,old folks need MORE social interaction than us youngsters to keep from going dementeia,so locking them up and isolating is actually doing more damage to them than we realise.
If anyone has ever done time in a jail,this sounds like a good description of solitary confinement,with better facilities and more room in your jail cell.
you can transcribe it too back to you living still at home if you are lucky and still able to do so.

So maybe lets ask our last of the magnificant generation,what they would like to do...They survived a world war and are a damn sight tougher still than us Gen Xers and the Millenials we breed. They haven't long anymore either,and I personally think they have a right to decide how they spend their last days on this Earth.

My mother is 87 and was initially scared of the whole thing. Shes still a bit nervous but is getting on with things now. Mentally and physically well. When she went for a hospital appointment shes was asked 3 times her date of birth because they thought she was no more than 70.

She has an eye issue that requires her getting injections directly into her eyeball. To pun on it she barely batted an eyelid. They made them hardy back in those days. Put up with being restricted for months with no complaints. Shes a damn sight tougher than I'll ever be.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

Fancy N95 (that's an American term, here it's called FFP2 or FFP3) respirators aren't actually suitable for everyday wear where the intent is to reduce spread at source - because they have an exhalation vent.

That's also handy because they're still in short enough supply for people who actually need them (going into a known contaminated environment). They've also risen in price by a factor of 10 or so in the last 6 months.

Not to mind you need training on how to use them and are one shot jobs as well.

That disclaimer on boxes of masks "not for medical use" or similar is because there are very strict product testing & approval standards for PPE. You can't just start making respirators / masks and put them on the market without expensive testing (it's illegal) . The disclaimer is to get around this, in normal times that wouldn't fly, but hey. In practice if they're constructed from the the same materials and in the same way as an approved product, they'll work the same

Have you seen the conditions some of that PPE is made in India or China? Sterile it aint. It actually does justice to Murphys law of combat."Your equipment and rifle [PPE] have been made by the lowest bidders possible on a Govt contract!" Ditto your PPE has been made by the cheapest sweat shop child labour possible in China or India.
So dont worry if that mask you break out smells of fried noodles or feet and curry,it was only on some dirty floor in New Dehli and packed into a box by a 12 year old street urchin on a rupee a day wage who hasnt washed his hands in a week.
I'll take my chances ...Thanks al the same.:D

Grizzly 45

Heckler wrote: »

My mother is 87 and was initially scared of the whole thing. Shes still a bit nervous but is getting on with things now. Mentally and physically well. When she went for a hospital appointment shes was asked 3 times her date of birth because they thought she was no more than 70.

She has an eye issue that requires her getting injections directly into her eyeball. To pun on it she barely batted an eyelid. They made them hardy back in those days. Put up with being restricted for months with no complaints. Shes a damn sight tougher than I'll ever be.

Yup, My mum had her appendix removed in the middle of an air raid in Berlin in 1943 ,by a one armed surgeon who was Ex Wehrmacht medical corps and lost his arm in Stalingrad and was considerd still fit for civilian duty when she was five.With minimal painkillers.Morphine grown and refined out of leuttce sap!

Dead hard generation them. So I think they can make up their own minds on the COVID precautions.

Uinseann_16

Id hazard a guess im much younger than most on here , no offense lads
Its a strange thing im young in good health im in very little danger from this virus on paper anyways
However ive got parents one whos a healthcare worker and i wouldnt want to catch it and pass it on to them
A friend has a father going through chemo and hes stuck at home for the foreseeble lockdown or not they cant risk it

luckily i had dust masks from doing DIY on my house and a respirator in the workshop if needs be:D which would be far more effective than a N95 mask with its better seal and superior filters

I think one of the unspoken things is the mental health side of it , im quite sure after this is all done and over well see a spike in suicides and the like during the pandemic
Personally i started a discord (gaming chat app) for myself and some lads i knew might struggle being at home for various reasons and its been a great out to have a get together and a few rounds of a game in party chat a couple of hours on a friday or saturday night.

Its no harm to give a lad you know a call for 20 mins , it might make their day to have a chat if theyre stuck at home for medical reasons etc:pac:

tudderone

I see Spain has just had an outbreak of the West Nile virus. Its expected to spread to the whole of that country. Whats next ? Plagues of locusts ?

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

I see Spain has just had an outbreak of the West Nile virus. Its expected to spread to the whole of that country. Whats next ? Plagues of locusts ?

Yep....

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-locust-plagues-in-east-africa-are-sending-us-a-message-and-it-s-not-a-good-one

Birdnuts

tudderone wrote: »

I see Spain has just had an outbreak of the West Nile virus. Its expected to spread to the whole of that country. Whats next ? Plagues of locusts ?

Locusts numbers actually have been building across the Sahel the last few years and turning up more and more in place like Arabia,Turkey and Southern Russia - in response to increasing summer rains across the Sahel(which I might add goes entirely against what the Global warming alarmists had predicted for the region!!)

tudderone

Birdnuts wrote: »

Locusts numbers actually have been building across the Sahel the last few years and turning up more and more in place like Arabia,Turkey and Southern Russia - in response to increasing summer rains across the Sahel(which I might add goes entirely against what the Global warming alarmists had predicted for the region!!)

Don't forget the Asian hornets, they are in France, the UK and here too, down south. They kill off bees i believe which is bad news for agriculture .

Mellor

Birdnuts wrote: »

in response to increasing summer rains across the Sahel(which I might add goes entirely against what the Global warming alarmists had predicted for the region!!)

Gonna fact check you on that.
More extreme rainfall is exactly what global warming model predicts?

People are very quick to believe and spread anything that feeds into their agenda. Flat earthers are insanely common at this point. Which is extremely worrying.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Don't forget the Asian hornets, they are in France, the UK and here too, down south. They kill off bees i believe which is bad news for agriculture .

Be intresting to know where asian hornets came from if they actually are here.Things are about the size of a mans thumb,so easily spotted.

Feisar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yup, My mum had her appendix removed in the middle of an air raid in Berlin in 1943 ,by a one armed surgeon who was Ex Wehrmacht medical corps and lost his arm in Stalingrad and was considerd still fit for civilian duty when she was five.With minimal painkillers.Morphine grown and refined out of leuttce sap!

Dead hard generation them. So I think they can make up their own minds on the COVID precautions.

:eek:

Damn that's hard core. I'd say that's mental if I seen it in a film.

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be intresting to know where asian hornets came from if they actually are here.Things are about the size of a mans thumb,so easily spotted.

I think theres some confusion with our native hornet which are very rare but people spending more time outdoors who would be more used to pavement than path:p see a hornet and go "oh my god Murder Hornets!":rolleyes:

Im in quite a rural area and ive seen hornets outside the house the last 4 or 5 years last summer i was working on my motorbike ... lets just say i took a tea break when a big black and yellow thing started buzzing with curiosity at my cooling engine

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

:eek:

Damn that's hard core. I'd say that's mental if I seen it in a film.

Just an average day in the life in Berlin in 1943.:eek:
People just had to get on with it,with what they had. If all thats available is a one armed Ex military field surgeon.Thats what ya get. Gotta operate down in a theatre in a air raid bunker,thats where you operate.

If all you can give a seven year old girl is some choloroform and morphine home-brewed out of a leuttece plant,because getting real morphine made out of opium poppies is becoming as rare as hens teeth by then and is needed on the front for the troops

My dad who grew up in the 30s depression era America ,remembers his late of Letrim Irish mum buying for him and his six siblings and alcholic husband Veterinary grade medicines and when it became available, penecillin powder bandages and sutures and stitching him up ,as he was supplemting the family fortune in his teens in the boxing rings of Brooklyn. Lots of people did this back then in the depression era too,it was all they could afford.It's made just as sterile as human medications,just a lot rougher in quality. And as she said "if you are going to be a dumb brute of an animal,and get yourself batterd in the ring.You can be medicated like one too!"

And we are giving out about our health services and doctors and prescription meds these days?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And we are giving out about our health services and doctors and prescription meds these days?

We don't know we are born really. My father told me about people who might have a bad tooth, back in the 40's/50's, buying a razor blade to cut their gum and getting someone to help them get the tooth out, all without pain relief, maybe a glass of poitin if they could get it.

Even back in the early 80's in dublin city centre, when i used to be in there with the father, you would see elderly people bow-legged from rickets.

Birdnuts

Mellor wrote: »

Gonna fact check you on that.
More extreme rainfall is exactly what global warming model predicts?

People are very quick to believe and spread anything that feeds into their agenda. Flat earthers are insanely common at this point. Which is extremely worrying.

Fire away - cos the alarmists predicted more extreme droughts in this region

Mellor

Birdnuts wrote: »

Fire away - cos the alarmists predicted more extreme droughts in this region

Not sure what you definition of fact checking is. But the idea is that you'd provide evidence to back up the claim.

I know nothing about the Sahel specifically. But global warming doesn't equal uniformly hotter and dryer. It means more extreme weather. Temp flucuations causing more tropical storms. Wetter wet seasons, and dryer dry seasons. More floods, but then 6 month later drought.

A quick google for the Sahel;

Columbia University
Africa’s Sahel region could suddenly get far more rainfall as global warming proceeds...

Rainy seasons are becoming shorter, more intense, and less predictable as precipitation increases 7% for every degree Celsius in temperature rise, Hatterman says. With farmers losing arable land and access to water fluctuating, food insecurity has become a greater threat, especially for subsistence farmers who do not have economic alternatives if their crops fail. Droughts are a major issue, but so are increasing floods due to more intense rainfall.
https://qz.com/africa/1719442/west-africas-sahel-vulnerable-to-climate-change-bad-governance/

So you previous post indicates that prediction was correct.
I've no idea where you are getting "going entirely against what the Global warming alarmists predicted" from.

Birdnuts

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure what you definition of fact checking is. But the idea is that you'd provide evidence to back up the claim.

I know nothing about the Sahel specifically. But global warming doesn't equal uniformly hotter and dryer. It means more extreme weather. Temp flucuations causing more tropical storms. Wetter wet seasons, and dryer dry seasons. More floods, but then 6 month later drought.

A quick google for the Sahel;






So you previous post indicates that prediction was correct.
I've no idea where you are getting "going entirely against what the Global warming alarmists predicted" from.

I'm basing my views on science like this https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140196305000522

which shows the area is "greening" - this might not fit in with the alarmists view of things but its a fact none the less.


You like many others seem to be labouring under the impression that "climate change" is entirely influenced by human emmissions - totally ignoring the facts of natural climate change which saw the likes of the Sahara being a well watered Savannah only a few thousand years ago. I would also add that land use change like deforestation and overgrazing are far more important drivers of local climate change that humans have a hand in and is the primary reason for the increased aridity of large parts of Arabia and the wider Levant since Roman Times

tudderone

The Rock Island auction house, as you will see a lot of on gun Jesus's youtube channel, has for the first time put its gun auction catalogues online. All sorts of gun and related articles for sale. Everything from a flint lock pistol to Fritz von Papen's shotgun and everything in between.


Volume 1. https://www.rockislandauction.com/riacms/wp-content/uploads/flipbooks/2020-premier-auction/mobile/index.html

Volume 2. https://www.rockislandauction.com/riacms/wp-content/uploads/flipbooks/2020-premier-auction-2/mobile/index.html

Volume 3. https://www.rockislandauction.com/riacms/wp-content/uploads/flipbooks/2020-premier-auction-3/mobile/index.html

Mellor

Birdnuts wrote: »

which shows the area is "greening" - this might not fit in with the alarmists view of things but its a fact none the less.

You keep talking about "alarmist views" but haven't been able to point to any that match what you are claiming. Safe enough bet at this point that you don;t have any.
The actually prediction that I highlighted matches the changes we have seen.

This is extremely basic propaganda and misinformation tactics.

"Well, for years the [insert group] have been saying [made up claim]. And unless you're an idiot you can see that's not the case. You aren't an idiot are you son?"

BAsic suff. But it sucks in the lazy on facebook who blindly believe rather than fact check.

You like many others seem to be labouring under the impression that "climate change" is entirely influenced by human emmissions - totally ignoring the facts of natural climate change which saw the likes of the Sahara being a well watered Savannah only a few thousand years ago.

I never mentioned emissions or any root cause. So not sure where you are pulling that room, well actually, I know exactly fro m where.

As you mention natural climate change. That's wheeled out by climate-denyies all the time. Have you ever bothered to look at a graph of natural climate change. I've no idea how somebody could understand it and continue with that argument.

Not to mention the fact that a natural change of this magnitude presents us with most of the same problems anyway.

I would also add that land use change like deforestation and overgrazing are far more important drivers of local climate change that humans have a hand in and is the primary reason for the increased aridity of large parts of Arabia and the wider Levant since Roman Times

Yes. Both are large factors shaping the makeup of the atmosphere. Both are part of the man made problem. Doesn;t really back up the idea that it's not real.

Birdnuts

Mellor wrote: »

You keep talking about "alarmist views" but haven't been able to point to any that match what you are claiming. Safe enough bet at this point that you don;t have any.
The actually prediction that I highlighted matches the changes we have seen.

This is extremely basic propaganda and misinformation tactics.

"Well, for years the [insert group] have been saying [made up claim]. And unless you're an idiot you can see that's not the case. You aren't an idiot are you son?"

BAsic suff. But it sucks in the lazy on facebook who blindly believe rather than fact check.




I never mentioned emissions or any root cause. So not sure where you are pulling that room, well actually, I know exactly fro m where.

As you mention natural climate change. That's wheeled out by climate-denyies all the time. Have you ever bothered to look at a graph of natural climate change. I've no idea how somebody could understand it and continue with that argument.

Not to mention the fact that a natural change of this magnitude presents us with most of the same problems anyway.




Yes. Both are large factors shaping the makeup of the atmosphere. Both are part of the man made problem. Doesn;t really back up the idea that it's not real.

My point is that the climate alarmists have been predicting climate "Armageddon" for the last 30 years and have consistently been proved wrong to the point were climate science has been seriously devalued - with media clowns like George Lee being held up as authorities on the subject after every bit of wind and rain. I am indeed "well read" in this area as I worked in the Met Services in a previous life and continue to follow the work of independent climate scientists closely.

Grizzly 45

30 years???Try 54 years in modern times.All of the Doomsday scenarios have been bunkum that were prophesied.

tudderone

The proof that the green thing is overstated or a scam, is take mass manufacturing, most of the holier than thou countries in Europe have moved their manufacturing to China, which uses a huge amount of coal fired power stations, child labour and slave/prisoner/we don't like the look of you labour.

The scrapping of ships was driven out of European countries by the likes of Greenpeace. So what happened to all these old ships ? Simple, the ships are sent to Pakistan, India, Bangladesh or Burma, beached and scrapped. Its a filthy business, oil and fuel oil tanks allowed to spill into the sea, massive amounts of asbestos are just thrown into the sea also, anything that is unsellable, wood or wiring insulation is just piled into heaps and burnt.

The west gets all sanctimonious about green issues, but its like me banging on about being green when i have thrown all my rubbish into my neighbours back garden.

Mellor

Birdnuts wrote: »

My point is that the climate alarmists have been predicting climate "Armageddon" for the last 30 years and have consistently been proved wrong to the point were climate science has been seriously devalued - with media clowns like George Lee being held up as authorities on the subject after every bit of wind and rain. I am indeed "well read" in this area as I worked in the Met Services in a previous life and continue to follow the work of independent climate scientists closely.

Again, for the third time. Can you point to any of these predictions? It should be a simple request. As I said above, the first prediction I googled to the Sahel was for increased rainfall. Which is what is happening, no?

And of course the most extreme predicts won't come true. Most reasonable forecasts include a best case and worse lines (COVID graphs are the same). The results will be somewhere in the middle. The extreme view is rarely correct on anything.

You are kinda of falling into the problem of results based thinking. If the results are not as bad as predicted, that doesn't mean the prediction was wrong, something that people fail to remember very often. The worst case predictions are based on doing absolutely nothing to counter it. We haven't gone that route. So it's not the prediction for what will happen. The current model based on proposed changes is actually pretty good. If in 100 years, the measures work and we end up back on the natural trend - no doubt somebody will claim that it was all fake. And people will be led by it. Which is much more worrying for the fate of the human race than the temperature.

Mellor

tudderone wrote: »

The proof that the green thing is overstated or a scam, is take mass manufacturing, most of the holier than thou countries in Europe have moved their manufacturing to China, which uses a huge amount of coal fired power stations, child labour and slave/prisoner/we don't like the look of you labour.

The west gets all sanctimonious about green issues, but its like me banging on about being green when i have thrown all my rubbish into my neighbours back garden.

You are completely correct that that is happening.
But the issue is that you are blaming a singular "West", not really accurate.

The people outsourcing to china, or scrapping ships are doing so for money. (I know it's large companies, but lets point at the policy makers at the top). They aren't the ones banned the practices in Europe. If they were allowed to do it here, and it was more profitable, they would do it here.

A better analogy is you complaining about drugs in your village. And you son that moved out at 18 selling drugs in the city. Does that make you a hypocrite? or just in a powerless?


(Edie: But I agree, there's little point you or I recycling out plastic bags and bottles. China is continuing to be China)