The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Edward M

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I think that's what every one is doing and it's exactly as you say. You vote how your conscience allows. It's tricky and not straight forward at all. Should the 8th be repealed? On it's own merit? It seems from this thread anyhow that people think it should be repealed. But the reason for keeping it there is to hold back what might come after it.

Conscience is very much apart of every one's vote on this one, I would think, which is why it becomes so emotive. I've read it a few times on this thread that people are forgetting there's a baby involved. But equally I wonder do people remember there is a woman involved. You yourself have said she should just get on with it. That's a horrible way to treat a woman. Maybe the view is it's a horrible thing to kill a baby, but how can it be resolved? How can both lives be equal when at the moment the baby's existence will override the wishes of the woman it is dependent on?

Good post, the only blip, I didn't say they should get on with it, I just said they get on with it.

I imagine the "just get over it" crowd would be singing a different tune if mandatory kidney donation became a thing in order to save lives

thee glitz

kylith wrote: »

I'm unsure of what you're asking here. Could you clarify?

What I mean is what determines that abortion is the 'only option' - is this restricted to medical requirements, or open to a wider definition of necessity?

kylith

thee glitz wrote: »

What I mean is what determines that abortion is the 'only option' - is this restricted to medical requirements, or open to a wider definition of necessity?

The only option available to her if she does not want to have a child.

Bannasidhe

Edward M wrote: »

Could say the same about cocaine, heroine and many other drugs.
I'm a democrat here, I have a vote on it coming up, if its passed I hold my hands up to the democratic decision on it, it probably won't get my vote, because of MY conscience, much as I'd like to see the eighth repealed, but not a no limit abortion policy up to any set period.

And there is an argument to be made for regulating those but this thread is not the place for that.

One major difference is that were those things to be regulated it wouldn't take a referendum and all the high horse moral brigade riding we are seeing here (and in the marriage equality referendum) as people's 'lifestyle choices' are debated/judged and comments about 'getting on with it' and 'suffering the consequences' are rolled out nor is the bodily autonomy of some one who is a user of these substances subject to terms and conditions - unless that user is pregnant in which case any potential treatment for addiction is dependent on how it affects an embryo or fetus.

So not really a great comparison all things being equal.

captbarnacles

Edward as a matter of interest what is your view on abortion in cases of rape? And if you agree with it how would work it?

Edward M

captbarnacles wrote: »

Edward as a matter of interest what is your view on abortion in cases of rape? And if you agree with it how would work it?

I would be in favour of the victims choice on that, earliest decision possible.

Atoms for Peace

There's going to be some serious dirt and vitriol draged into the public domain leading up to what ever referendum will take place in the upcoming months.
Therefore I've made my mind up on the matter before the fun starts.

applehunter

Re : Dail Debate

I was most impressed by Brid Smyth on the repeal side. I think herself and Clare Daly are two of the better Dail contributers. Ruth Coppinger on the other hand is charmless.

The one thing that struck me in all the repeal speeches was the lack of acknowledgement for the unborn child. The two that stand out were Simon Harris and Michael Martin. Both claim to have been on a journey to their present position. Be honest and don't hide behind sophistry.

Bannasidhe

applehunter wrote: »

Re : Dail Debate

I was most impressed by Brid Smyth on the repeal side. I think herself and Clare Daly are two of the better Dail contributers. Ruth Coppinger on the other hand is charmless.

The one thing that struck me in all the repeal speeches was the lack of acknowledgement for the unborn child. The two that stand out were Simon Harris and Michael Martin. Both claim to have been on a journey to their present position. Be honest and don't hide behind sophistry.

Perhaps it's because to refer to an embryo as a 'unborn child' is emotive sophistry of the highest order. There is no 'child' born or unborn at the gestation period being considered.
There is something that may later develop into a child or may abort itself and miscarry.

It is not sophistry to use the correct medical terms, quite the opposite.

When I was 3 years old I was not a woman. I had the potential to become a woman but no one would have referred to me as such because it wouldn't be true. Toddler, child, girl yes. Woman no.

Edward M

Edward M wrote: »

I would be in favour of the victims choice on that, earliest decision possible.

So why? If you can decide it's OK to abort a feotus that was conceived by rape, is it not OK if the woman happens to be pregnant, as a result of anything else?
So do you really care for the unborn in that case?
Is it just a moral judgement as regards abortion? Woman gets pregnant, doesn't want to be, shouldn't get abortion.
Woman gets raped, is then pregnant, she should get an abortion.
So what exactly is the difference is these two situations?

applehunter

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps it's because to refer to an embryo as a 'unborn child' is emotive sophistry of the highest order. There is no 'child' born or unborn at the gestation period being considered.
There is something that may later develop into a child or may abort itself and miscarry.

It is not sophistry to use the correct medical terms, quite the opposite.

When I was 3 years old I was not a woman. I had the potential to become a woman but no one would have referred to me as such because it wouldn't be true. Toddler, child, girl yes. Woman no.

Is unborn ok with you?

My point is that Harris and Martin didn't acknowledge the unborn in their speeches. To come from a pro life position to where they are now and not to acknowledge the unborn was cowardly.

Bannasidhe

applehunter wrote: »

Is unborn ok with you?

My point is that Harris and Martin didn't acknowledge the unborn in their speeches. To come from a pro life position to where they are now and not to acknowledge the unborn was cowardly.

I was simply suggesting a possible reason why some people didn't refer to the occupants of a womb directly - and I have no problem with unborn but then I'm not making a speech in the Dail so it matters not a whit what I am ok with.
I have noticed that among some opposed to repeal that the owner of the womb doesn't feature at all so I guess they balance each other out.

Cowardly is a strange word to use, particularly for Martin (whom I am not a fan of, to put it mildly, nor would I ever vote for him or any FF candidate) as he actually stuck his head above the parapet for once in his life and is being condemned widely for it. I think his speech was the one brave thing I have ever seen him do tbh. I'll sneer a little less when my mother votes for him again.

Edward M

bubblypop wrote: »

So why? If you can decide it's OK to abort a feotus that was conceived by rape, is it not OK if the woman happens to be pregnant, as a result of anything else?
So do you really care for the unborn in that case?
Is it just a moral judgement as regards abortion? Woman gets pregnant, doesn't want to be, shouldn't get abortion.
Woman gets raped, is then pregnant, she should get an abortion.
So what exactly is the difference is these two situations?

I never said if she was raped she should get an abortion, that's twice today I've been misquoted.
Twisting what I say doesent change what I said.
I said she should have the choice if she was raped.
I don't know why I feel the way I do, but a rape victim is a different case than an ordinarily induced pregnancy.

Hannibal_Smith

Edward M wrote: »

that's twice today I've been misquoted.

I didn't misquote you.

You said :-

Edward M wrote: »

Many women have unwanted pregnancies, most just get on with it though.
Inconvenience is a poor reason for aborting IMO.

I said:-

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

. You yourself have said she should just get on with it.

Where is the misquoting?

Edward M

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I was simply suggesting a possible reason why some people didn't refer to the occupants of a womb directly - and I have no problem with unborn but then I'm not making a speech in the Dail so it matters not a whit what I am ok with.
I have noticed that among some opposed to repeal that the owner of the womb doesn't feature at all so I guess they balance each other out.

Cowardly is a strange word to use, particularly for Martin (whom I am not a fan of, to put it mildly, nor would I ever vote for him or any FF candidate) as he actually stuck his head above the parapet for once in his life and is being condemned widely for it. I think his speech was the one brave thing I have ever seen him do tbh. I'll sneer a little less when my mother votes for him again.

I agree on that BTW.
Its funny how it goes though, the other day I posted on political opinions here locally, they were announced on local radio, most were anti repeal or if they were pro, they were against the 12_week on demand proposal.
A poster replied that it didn't really matter what any individual politician thought, this was a matter for personal choice, which was greeted with rapturous thanks also from repeal posters.
Funny how when it suits its great, when it doesn't matter what they think.

SusieBlue

Edward M wrote: »

I never said if she was raped she should get an abortion, that's twice today I've been misquoted.
Twisting what I say doesent change what I said.
I said she should have the choice if she was raped.
I don't know why I feel the way I do, but a rape victim is a different case than an ordinarily induced pregnancy.

Genuine question and I’m not being smart, but is that maybe because the sex was forced on a rape victim, whereas in an ordinarily induced pregnancy the sex was (most likely) had for pleasure?
Because that’s what it sounds like your getting at.

captbarnacles

Edward M wrote: »

captbarnacles wrote: »

Edward as a matter of interest what is your view on abortion in cases of rape? And if you agree with it how would work it?

I would be in favour of the victims choice on that, earliest decision possible.

Problem is that it is extremely difficult to prove so what to do then?

Edward M

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Genuine question and I’m not being smart, but is that maybe because the sex was forced on a rape victim, whereas in an ordinarily induced pregnancy the sex was (most likely) had for pleasure?
Because that’s what it sounds like your getting at.

I'd say because its consensual and we all know there is always a risk of pregnancy being induced from sex.

Edward M

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I didn't misquote you.

You said :-



I said:-



Where is the misquoting?

Edward M wrote: »

Many women have unwanted pregnancies, most just get on with it though.
Inconvenience is a poor reason for aborting IMO.

The word should.
I made a statement of what most women do, not what they "should" do.

Edward M

captbarnacles wrote: »

Problem is that it is extremely difficult to prove so what to do then?

I don't have all the answers.
Just to put what I'm thinking down here, I'm not proposing anything, just expressing how I feel.
Perhaps an insight as to the thoughts of a large range of people on how they might vote and their reasons for it.
I'm not against consensual sex of any type and for any reason people want to have it.
I'm not against any form of contraception nor do I believe that sex should be only used for procreation.
I drink alcohol, I back horses, I tell dirty jokes, I laugh at others telling them, I don't go to mass every Sunday, I don't pray every night, I don't know the rosary off by heart, I've had sex with more than one woman, I've had children with two women. Both women still talk to me, as do my 3 children, we all get along grand.
Basically I'm an ordinary chap I think, I'm not preaching, just trying to explain my reasons for being against abortion on demand, I feel others have the same view as in my social circle that's the sort of feedback I'm getting.

Martina1991

Edward M wrote:

I'd say because its consensual and we all know there is always a risk of pregnancy being induced from sex.

But contraception can and does fail.
We can take precautions but they don't always work.

And then What? Tough sh!t you shouldn't have had sex?

Akrasia

Edward M wrote: »

I never said if she was raped she should get an abortion, that's twice today I've been misquoted.
Twisting what I say doesent change what I said.
I said she should have the choice if she was raped.
I don't know why I feel the way I do, but a rape victim is a different case than an ordinarily induced pregnancy.

Its because of blame. A rape victim cannot be blamed for getting pregnant, but everyone else should 'take responsibility' by being forced to have a baby, even if its a case of failed contraception.

Its fundamentally a judgement. You are judging that a pregnant rape victim has suffered too much to be expected to carry an unwanted pregnancy, but everyone else should just accept the consequence of their choice to have sex

Annasopra

Edward M wrote: »

I never said if she was raped she should get an abortion, that's twice today I've been misquoted.
Twisting what I say doesent change what I said.
I said she should have the choice if she was raped.
I don't know why I feel the way I do, but a rape victim is a different case than an ordinarily induced pregnancy.

Extrenely difficult to lefislate for abortion in case of rape. What do you accept as proof she was raped?

This is why the 12 week no questions asked legislation is suggested.

joey1111

Well if its going to go pro life then there should be a mandatory prison sentence for any man who fails to support their child both financially and emotionally.

If men have a say in what a woman does with a foetus then they should equally be responsible for how it gets there and what happens to it afterwards.

Go into any family court and you will see so many men either not showing up or giving some excuse as to why they cant or wont support their kid's.

Britain including Scotland are miles ahead of Ireland in actually repremanding these losers and making them take responsibility for their sperm.


You'd see a lot of losers skipping the country me thinks and a lot thinking before the deed which cam't be a bad thing

It pi$$es me off so much that this is always on the woman, she either gets pregnant to trap men or she gets pregnant for a free gaff.

Nothing about the men at all, can they not manage to put a condom on no?

But they get to say that she has to keep the child, manage it herself through her whole life and also in a lot of cases give zero support or ownership for the child.
Meanwhile the child grows up in a lot of cases with emotional problems.

AVFC.Stephen

lived in a country where women have abortions like hot dinners......

A past partner became pregnant while there and we decided to have the baby. The medical help was unreal. They told us everything through the pregnancy and put us up in a hotel for 3 days after the birth next to the hospital for 3 days with a mid wife on 24hr standby.

2 years ago my now wife became pregnant in Ireland.we ran into a few problems when a GP apparently let it slip that the baby had cysts on the brain. We hadn't a clue what that meant but it sounded serious. We went to the hospital to find out more.

This is the crazy part... The doctor said she couldn't tell us if there was problems with the baby as it may persuade us to go to England to get an abortion. At this stage my wife is in tears and worried sick.... both of us left the hospital like an empty shell thinking we were in for a serious talk.

Thankfully the cysts disappeared and the baby was born healthy. The stress we were put under because we don't have a choice in this country is stone age BS. My wife was put under so much stress as we were considered high risk ppl to get an abortion if the kid had downs. How they put you in that category I have no idea.

Just to clarify.

I agree with abortion
My wife doesn't.

Hannibal_Smith

Edward M wrote: »

The word should.
I made a statement of what most women do, not what they "should" do.

The word 'Should' may not be literally in your post, but when you look at what you said in context, it is what you're saying.


I said :-

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

It's only a concern when it comes to abortion. When it comes to miscarriage no one gives a hoot what gets flushed down where. If human life is a human life etc.

Anyhow, what about the human life that doesn't want to carry the 'humanlife' you are talking about? What is to happen then?

To which you responded directly with:-

Edward M wrote: »

Many women have unwanted pregnancies, most just get on with it though.
Inconvenience is a poor reason for aborting IMO.

Maybe you could clarify what women, who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy, should do? If no abortion and they don't want to be pregnant?

Hannibal_Smith

applehunter wrote: »

Is unborn ok with you?

My point is that Harris and Martin didn't acknowledge the unborn in their speeches. To come from a pro life position to where they are now and not to acknowledge the unborn was cowardly.

Equally there is a woman involved. Who gets priority?

Edward M

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

The word 'Should' may not be literally in your post, but when you look at what you said in context, it is what you're saying.


I said :-


To which you responded directly with:-



Maybe you could clarify what women, who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy, should do? If no abortion and they don't want to be pregnant?

They should do what they feel is the right thing.
I'm not moralising for anyone, but I'm not voting for abortion on demand either, as I said I probably will abstain.
AVFCStephens post is a good one.
An example of an abortion that would have been carried out as a mistake, a perfectly healthy child and from his post I presume to very happy parents.
If abortion on demand had been available their baby may well have been aborted. Who'd have ever known a perfectly healthy foetus was destroyed?
The grey area between necessity and convenience is what gets me though.

Hannibal_Smith

Edward M wrote: »

They should do what they feel is the right thing.
I'm not moralising for anyone, but I'm not voting for abortion on demand either, as I said I probably will abstain.

But that's the whole point. They CAN'T do what they feel is right. That choice is not there for them. People will vote with their conscience on it when the time comes, but to those who don't what to just get on with it, like the women you've referred to, you can understand what they would vote the way they do.

Hannibal_Smith

Edward M wrote: »

They should do what they feel is the right thing.
I'm not moralising for anyone, but I'm not voting for abortion on demand either, as I said I probably will abstain.
AVFCStephens post is a good one.
An example of an abortion that would have been carried out as a mistake, a perfectly healthy child and from his post I presume to very happy parents.
If abortion on demand had been available their baby may well have been aborted. Who'd have ever known a perfectly healthy foetus was destroyed?
The grey area between necessity and convenience is what gets me though.

Ah you edited as I was replying. That post isn't an example of an abortion that WOULD have been carried out as a mistake? That poster never said they even considered it? They said the doctor refused to go into detail IN CASE it led to an abortion.

I would take that post as a reason to introduce abortion tbh...if it's putting medics in a situation where they cannot divulge full health information to you in case you travel for an abortion, that is seriously flawed. It's exactly the kind of thing that makes me angry about maternity care.

AVFC.Stephen

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

But that's the whole point. They CAN'T do what they feel is right. That choice is not there for them. People will vote with their conscience on it when the time comes, but to those who don't what to just get on with it, like the women you've referred to, you can understand what they would vote the way they do.

I strongly agree with this. I really feel what choice ppl make it's nobody else's business. There is ppl out there now in this country that decided it was best to go the England and abort for whatever reason and when they come back and are frowned upon or not educated into the choice they made they end up with mental health issues.

If abortion was done correctly and it was part of sexual education in schools like the country I lived in, ppl would be a lot more understanding like towards a miscarriage meaning they would get support. Not a gun to the head

Edward M

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Ah you edited as I was replying. That post isn't an example of an abortion that WOULD have been carried out as a mistake? That poster never said they even considered it? They said the doctor refused to go into detail IN CASE it led to an abortion.

I would take that post as a reason to introduce abortion tbh...if it's putting medics in a situation where they cannot divulge full health information to you in case you travel for an abortion, that is seriously flawed. It's exactly the kind of thing that makes me angry about maternity care.

That's what I meant really, why repeal of the eighth is important too, its just the abortion on demand I can't reconcile with.

AVFC.Stephen

Edward M wrote: »

They should do what they feel is the right thing.
I'm not moralising for anyone, but I'm not voting for abortion on demand either, as I said I probably will abstain.
AVFCStephens post is a good one.
An example of an abortion that would have been carried out as a mistake, a perfectly healthy child and from his post I presume to very happy parents.
If abortion on demand had been available their baby may well have been aborted. Who'd have ever known a perfectly healthy foetus was destroyed?
The grey area between necessity and convenience is what gets me though.

We were not informed what the problem with the baby was because the doctors hands were tied. I'm sure the doctor would of loved to tell us the story but the law prevented her.

This is exactly the reason I'm for abortion. That doctor was with us for 15mins and couldn't open her mouth but the choice I had was nothing except it's for the rest of your life. It's totally wrong to not inform ppl about what to expect

joey1111

Edward M wrote: »

They should do what they feel is the right thing.
I'm not moralising for anyone, but I'm not voting for abortion on demand either, as I said I probably will abstain.
AVFCStephens post is a good one.
An example of an abortion that would have been carried out as a mistake, a perfectly healthy child and from his post I presume to very happy parents.
If abortion on demand had been available their baby may well have been aborted. Who'd have ever known a perfectly healthy foetus was destroyed?
The grey area between necessity and convenience is what gets me though.

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

We were not informed what the problem with the baby was because the doctors hands were tied. I'm sure the doctor would of loved to tell us the story but the law prevented her.

This is exactly the reason I'm for abortion. That doctor was with us for 15mins and couldn't open her mouth but the choice I had was nothing except it's for the rest of your life. It's totally wrong to not inform ppl about what to expect

You'd like to think that if abortion does come into effect that it would be more than a 15 minute consultation with a Doctor whos hands are tied.

If I came across such an idiot i'd change hospital or look for someone more senior to enlighten me.

That was your right to know what was wrong with the foetus. I personally wouldn't have accepted the answer about their fear of you going off to have an abortion.

AVFC.Stephen

joey1111 wrote: »

You'd like to think that if abortion does come into effect that it would be more than a 15 minute consultation with a Doctor whos hands are tied.

If I came across such an idiot i'd change hospital or look for someone more senior to enlighten me.

That was your right to know what was wrong with the foetus. I personally wouldn't have accepted the answer about their fear of you going off to have an abortion.

This^^^^^^

Amen. We were under the impression we weren't allowed the full answer due to the law....

joey1111

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

This^^^^^^

Amen. We were under the impression we weren't allowed the full answer due to the law....

More likely they were too busy or something to look into it properly for you.

AVFC.Stephen

joey1111 wrote: »

More likely they were too busy or something to look into it properly for you.

Hence the reason the choice should be to change. Not to change the topic but we live in a country where last year nearly 20 ppl died of the flu. I don't blame the doctors but the overflow that we can't look after in a small country is embarrassing. 15mins and a pain killer and off you go.....

joey1111

AVFC.Stephen wrote: »

Hence the reason the choice should be to change. Not to change the topic but we live in a country where last year nearly 20 ppl died of the flu. I don't blame the doctors but the overflow that we can't look after in a small country is embarrassing. 15mins and a pain killer and off you go.....

I'm on the fence about the whole thing to be honest but I do believe that if pro life remains they need to change the laws and enforce a mandatory sentence or large fine on men who dont take financial responsibility for their offspring.

You cant keep putting on all the burden on women and the state to support them. In many cases the women are working and raising the kid on their own without state help.

If men get an opinion on what women do with their foetus then they need to take responsibiliy for what happens after its born.

But I believe because of pressure from the UN we will become pro choice, maybe with some stipulations but some form of it will be enforced.

AVFC.Stephen

joey1111 wrote: »

I'm on the fence about the whole thing to be honest but I do believe that if pro life remains they need to change the laws and enforce a mndatory sentence or large fine on men who dont take financial responsibility for their offspring.

You cant keep putting on all the burden on women and the state to support them. In many cases the women are working and raising the kid on their own without state help.

If men get an opinion on what women do with their foetus then they need to take responsibiliy for what happens after its born.

But I beleive because of pressure from the UN we will become pro choice, maybe with some stipulations but some form of it will be enforced.

As far as I know. A mate of mine has his deductions taken directly out of his pay.

When I think of abortion I think not only about what I stated but the drug addicts homeless or even the well off that should have a choice of what they do.

For ex. If my daughter was 14 and ended up doing the "dirty deed" and getting pregnant, I would recommend she abort

Edward M

Edward M wrote: »

I never said if she was raped she should get an abortion, that's twice today I've been misquoted.
Twisting what I say doesent change what I said.
I said she should have the choice if she was raped.
I don't know why I feel the way I do, but a rape victim is a different case than an ordinarily induced pregnancy.

I meant you think she should have the choice if raped, but you don't if she happened to get pregnant. So if contraception fails & the woman doesn't want to be pregnant, that's just tough?
I'm sorry but that IS a moral judgement.
It has nothing to do with the unborn & everything to do with judging the mothers actions. It's almost like a punishment.
I have heard this same argument from a lot of men, unsurprisingly. There never seems to be the same judgement on the fathers of these children.

Bannasidhe

Edward M wrote: »

I agree on that BTW.
Its funny how it goes though, the other day I posted on political opinions here locally, they were announced on local radio, most were anti repeal or if they were pro, they were against the 12_week on demand proposal.
A poster replied that it didn't really matter what any individual politician thought, this was a matter for personal choice, which was greeted with rapturous thanks also from repeal posters.
Funny how when it suits its great, when it doesn't matter what they think.

And LaaavLine was lit up yesterday with furious pro-lifers condemning Martin's 'betrayal' as a 'pragmatic' and 'cynical' ploy to attract de liberal young voters of de People's Repeublic of Kark Sout Central.

Apparently he sensed a change in the wind and is going with the tide (it was a show brimming over with mixed metaphors) of course another way of putting that would be he is following the wishes of the electorate he was elected to represent.

He paid dearly for his lukewarm 'support' for Marriage Equality in the leafy suburbs of Koork - perhaps he's decided the bourgeoisie of Ballinlough and Blackrock are more liberal than he realised in 2015.

Funny old world isn't it.

applehunter

From my perspective the more Kate O'Connell speaks on the issue the better.

She is hitting close to 10 on my thundering-bitchometer.

Bannasidhe

applehunter wrote: »

From my perspective the more Kate O'Connell speaks on the issue the better.

She is hitting close to 10 on my thundering-bitchometer.

Meh - I'd gladly give Ronan Mullen a slap of a fish every time he he looks like he's going to speak but tbh I don't give a fiddler's what any politician has to say - I made my mind up in 1982 and if anything the actions of the likes of SPUC then and Iona now, plus how it has been seen to damage the lives of innocent women and girls like X have only strengthened my opposition to the 8th.

I am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice.
I do care about the unborn but I care about the born more.
No child should come in to this world unwanted.

p.s - I had to google Kate O'Connell

Loafing Oaf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And LaaavLine was lit up yesterday with furious pro-lifers condemning Martin's 'betrayal' as a 'pragmatic' and 'cynical' ploy to attract de liberal young voters of de People's Repeublic of Kark Sout Central.

I wonder how closely Liveline vet their callers' bona fides. I'd be skeptical a lot of these are actual FF members...

Bannasidhe

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I wonder how closely Liveline vet their callers' bona fides. I'd be skeptical a lot of these are actual FF members...

About as many of the callers who live in Martin's constituency I'd say...
#fingersofonehand

PopePalpatine

applehunter wrote: »

From my perspective the more Kate O'Connell speaks on the issue the better.

She is hitting close to 10 on my thundering-bitchometer.

#LoveBoth in a nutshell.

Call me Al

Edward M wrote: »

I never said if she was raped she should get an abortion, that's twice today I've been misquoted.
Twisting what I say doesent change what I said.
I said she should have the choice if she was raped.
I don't know why I feel the way I do, but a rape victim is a different case than an ordinarily induced pregnancy.

But the developing embryo foetus baby is the same whichever way the conception happens so how can you distinguish?

Loafing Oaf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

About as many of the callers who live in Martin's constituency I'd say...
#fingersofonehand

I mean I don't doubt a lot of FF grassroots are genuinely unhappy with this move, but lambasting your leader on national radio is not the FF way...

Edward M

bubblypop wrote: »

I meant you think she should have the choice if raped, but you don't if she happened to get pregnant. So if contraception fails & the woman doesn't want to be pregnant, that's just tough?
I'm sorry but that IS a moral judgement.
It has nothing to do with the unborn & everything to do with judging the mothers actions. It's almost like a punishment.
I have heard this same argument from a lot of men, unsurprisingly. There never seems to be the same judgement on the fathers of these children.

What can I say, if a normal healthy woman, with a normal healthy pregnancy presents to a doctor and no good medical grounds can be found for abortion then she should have the baby IMO.
Its tough I know to accept that I can feel like I do, but that's the way I feel.
All I can say of men is i know some who have abdicated their responsibility as a parent both of babies and of older children also, scumbags if you want to refer to them as such.
I also know women who have exploited men with their children and rights after relationship breakdowns too.
Speaking for myself, I have never shirked a responsibility towards any of my children or their mothers, I love them all dearly and if they found themselves in a situation on either side of this debate I would do my utmost to support them in their decision also.
If my son shirked his responsibility I would gladly support the girl in any decision she would make, and my daughters in any they would make also.
Hopefully that will never arise, I have a grandchild on the way, looking forward to that in April.