The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Water John · 27-01-2018 11:53pm

They are often afraid to call in a consultant, out of hours, for fear of, getting the head eaten off them. That's a reality.

Zubeneschamali · 27-01-2018 11:56pm

Water John wrote: »

They are often afraid to call in a consultant, out of hours, for fear of, getting the head eaten off them. That's a reality.

If so, then they and the consultant urgently need firing.

But that is not the subject of the thread or the upcoming Referendum.

freshpopcorn · 27-01-2018 11:58pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Baloney. Savita requested an abortion and was turned down. She would be alive today (and might have more children!) if not for the 8th.

I'll be honest I get very lost regarding the whole Savita case because people from both sides always give different answers.
Since Ireland now has access to abortion when a woman's life is at risk would she have being given an abortion if she was in the same position Today? or would the eighth amendment need to be repealed?

Bannasidhe · 28-01-2018 12:24am

Water John wrote: »

You are incorrect, woman's live has priority and once there is risk to her life, medics must act.
You don't seem to understand sepsis, which is a virulent, possibly fatal, infection.
It's very presence puts the woman's life at risk and must be acted on, without delay.
Nobody is waiting for a % risk to be analysed. Doctor, should and would be before the Medical Council for gross negligence.

Did you even bother to read the H.S.E's own report on the complete cock up regarding sepsis and the delays due to the confusion over the 8th that led to Savita Halappanvar's death?

It was her death that lead to these protocols you are banging on about as if they are followed to the letter were introduced.

Jayzuz - HIQUA are complaining that medical staff in hospitals aren't washing their hands and you are acting like the hospitals are all over sepsis!

Bannasidhe · 28-01-2018 12:26am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'll be honest I get very lost regarding the whole Savita case because people from both sides always give different answers.
Since Ireland now has access to abortion when a woman's life is at risk would she have being given an abortion if she was in the same position Today? or would the eighth amendment need to be repealed?

Not until the risk to her life was 51% or over. Nothing has changed in that regard.

freshpopcorn · 28-01-2018 12:34am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not until the risk to her life was 51% or over. Nothing has changed in that regard.

So if the risk to her life was under 50% and she was out the 12 weeks time frame the repeal would have no effect?

Bannasidhe · 28-01-2018 12:43am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So if the risk to her life was under 50% and she was out the 12 weeks time frame the repeal would have no effect?

If the 8th is repealed than the 'equal right' clause is gone. The women's life will take priority and medical confusion will be eliminated. If the fetus is viable medical staff would like suggest delivery and incubation.
Late term terminations in countries where abortion is legal are rare and generally only because there are exceptional circumstances. With the 8th gone a termination would be possible to save the woman's life without having to wait until it reaches crises (ie 51%) should the woman request it.

Important to add that Repeal in and of it'self will not legalise abortion. That will require legislation.

Kurtosis · 28-01-2018 1:05am

Water John wrote: »

You are incorrect, woman's live has priority and once there is risk to her life, medics must act.
You don't seem to understand sepsis, which is a virulent, possibly fatal, infection.
It's very presence puts the woman's life at risk and must be acted on, without delay.
Nobody is waiting for a % risk to be analysed. Doctor, should and would be before the Medical Council for gross negligence.

But all medical conditions or interventions carry a potential risk to a woman's life. Obviously ranging from miniscule to major. There has to be some threshold of risk (implicit or explicit) to determine whether an intervention is made which could result in termination of the pregnancy.

volchitsa · 28-01-2018 1:17pm

Kurtosis wrote: »

But all medical conditions or interventions carry a potential risk to a woman's life. Obviously ranging from miniscule to major. There has to be some threshold of risk (implicit or explicit) to determine whether an intervention is made which could result in termination of the pregnancy.

Exactly. Flu can kill, and pregnancy, with its extra burden on the woman's cardiovascular system, can make flu far more dangerous than if the same person were not pregnant.

Does that mean a pregnant woman who catches flu should be allowed/advised to terminate her pregnancy?
I suppose if we really believed that pregnancy was an issue of conflicting rights between the fetus and the woman, that might actually be the case, but the truth is we dont. It's something of a fiction really, a way of preventing women who want an abortion from getting one in all but the most extreme circumstances, that's all.

The idea of conflicting rights has really only been invented to allow a ban on abortion without (usually) killing women when the pregnancy goes wrong. But it isnt really applied. Because it doesn't make lot of sense, as the flu example demonstrates.

Annasopra · 28-01-2018 8:30pm

Water John wrote: »

You are incorrect, woman's live has priority and once there is risk to her life, medics must act.
You don't seem to understand sepsis, which is a virulent, possibly fatal, infection.
It's very presence puts the woman's life at risk and must be acted on, without delay.
Nobody is waiting for a % risk to be analysed. Doctor, should and would be before the Medical Council for gross negligence.

No. You dont understand the 8th amendment cannot give priority to womens lives!

Annasopra · 28-01-2018 8:33pm

Kurtosis wrote: »

But all medical conditions or interventions carry a potential risk to a woman's life. Obviously ranging from miniscule to major. There has to be some threshold of risk (implicit or explicit) to determine whether an intervention is made which could result in termination of the pregnancy.

And the 8th means they also have to risk assess the unborns life as equal to the Mother

Da Boss · 28-01-2018 10:04pm

Using the excuse that abortion should be allowed because people travel to England and have it anyway is a poor excuse. People also rob and murder and take drugs, surely they should be legalized too cos people do then anyway!

mrkiscool2 · 28-01-2018 10:09pm

Da Boss wrote: »

Using the excuse that abortion should be allowed because people travel to England and have it anyway is a poor excuse. People also rob and murder and take drugs, surely they should be legalized too cos people do then anyway!

Talking about poisoning the well. Murder and robbery have nothing to do with abortion. And I don't think taking drugs should be illegal, but that is besides the point. If you think it's okay for women to travel to England a. you are an asshat, expecting women to go through the stress and financial burden of getting an abortion in another country and b. you aren't against abortion, you are just being "Not in my back yard"

freshpopcorn · 28-01-2018 11:50pm

As I've said in previous posts I can't call this referendum basing on what I'm hearing at the moment.
If it does pass will it be celebrated in Dublin Castle like when the marriage referendum was announced? or will it just be like a standard referendum.

Kurtosis · 29-01-2018 12:03am

I don't imagine so. Repeal would pave the way for a provision that virtually everyone wishes would never need to be used...so unlikely to lead to much jubilant celebration.

freshpopcorn · 29-01-2018 12:06am

Kurtosis wrote: »

I don't imagine so. Repeal would pave the way for a provision that virtually everyone wishes would never need to be used...so unlikely to lead to much jubilant celebration.

Thanks, I was just thinking some might see it as a celebrations because women were getting better rights!

Annasopra · 29-01-2018 12:15am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

As I've said in previous posts I can't call this referendum basing on what I'm hearing at the moment.
If it does pass will it be celebrated in Dublin Castle like when the marriage referendum was announced? or will it just be like a standard referendum.

I think it will be tight. Given that many women and men fought in 83 against it, fought in the 92 referenda and in the 2002 referendum I think many will celebrate. I dont think it will be the same tone at all.

I think the support of Michael Martin and Leo Varadakar may possibly be the game changer bringing it over the line.

freshpopcorn · 29-01-2018 12:23am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think it will be tight. Given that many women and men fought in 83 against it, fought in the 92 referenda and in the 2002 referendum I think many will celebrate. I dont think it will be the same tone at all.

I think the support of Michael Martin and Leo Varadakar may possibly be the game changer bringing it over the line.

Leo wasn't really a surprise to be honest Michael Martin was but once the parties have free will to vote however they want I can see their being a split. Even Today the Junior minister Patrick O'Donovan came out saying he wants to keep the eighth amendment. I'd say they could be an urban rural decide with td's and a lot will try and get out of supporting either side.

Annasopra · 29-01-2018 12:45am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Leo wasn't really a surprise to be honest Michael Martin was but once the parties have free will to vote however they want I can see their being a split. Even Today the Junior minister Patrick O'Donovan came out saying he wants to keep the eighth amendment. I'd say they could be an urban rural decide with td's and a lot will try and get out of supporting either side.

Given where Leo was 5 years ago it is a surprise. The leadership of political parties will mostly be looked to. The marriage referendum showed us many things
1 The people are ahead of politicians
2 Referenda campaigns lead by civil society more than politicisns works
3 The urban rural divide is not as divided as we think nowadays

I also think this media manfacturing of "both sides are shrill" is fascinating. There is a huge attempt to portray repealers as bullyers, name callers, abusers etc etc when the vast majority are perfectly reasonable.

freshpopcorn · 29-01-2018 1:00am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Given where Leo was 5 years ago it is a surprise. The leadership of political parties will mostly be looked to. The marriage referendum showed us many things
1 The people are ahead of politicians
2 Referenda campaigns lead by civil society more than politicisns works
3 The urban rural divide is not as divided as we think nowadays

Where I am in Cork I know of a TD's and county Councillors who'd be pro life unless they change there minds but I don't see this with more urban TD's to b be honest.

volchitsa · 29-01-2018 1:03am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

As I've said in previous posts I can't call this referendum basing on what I'm hearing at the moment.
If it does pass will it be celebrated in Dublin Castle like when the marriage referendum was announced? or will it just be like a standard referendum.

Personally, if it's passed I will be immensely relieved. Hugely so.

i'm not sure anyone actually "celebrates" abortion though, unlike the first gay marriage for instance, so no, I dont expect there will be much actual celebration as such.

January · 29-01-2018 1:14am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

As I've said in previous posts I can't call this referendum basing on what I'm hearing at the moment.
If it does pass will it be celebrated in Dublin Castle like when the marriage referendum was announced? or will it just be like a standard referendum.

If it passes there are celebrations planned. Maybe not on the scale of the mar eq ref but celebrations none the less. And we won't be celebrating abortion we will be celebrating winning the right to choice.

Loafing Oaf · 29-01-2018 1:18am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Even Today the Junior minister Patrick O'Donovan came out saying he wants to keep the eighth amendment..

That being a fairly big story is a good indicator of where FG are at on this issue IMO. I think the great majority of the PP will ultimately row in behind repeal, just as they did with POLDPA.

Edward M · 29-01-2018 1:41am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Leo wasn't really a surprise to be honest Michael Martin was but once the parties have free will to vote however they want I can see their being a split. Even Today the Junior minister Patrick O'Donovan came out saying he wants to keep the eighth amendment. I'd say they could be an urban rural decide with td's and a lot will try and get out of supporting either side.

Personally, it wouldn't matter a damn to me what a TD thought.
If we can't make up our own minds on an issue such as this, without referencing what a TD thinks as to why we come to our decision, then that is not our own choice anyway, its based on someone else's thinking or feelings.
This is a personal issue to me, if I'm not happy in my own mind then I won't vote on what anybody else thinks, be they priest, politician or any other type of individual.

freshpopcorn · 29-01-2018 1:49am

Edward M wrote: »

Personally, it wouldn't matter a damn to me what a TD thought.
If we can't make up our own minds on an issue such as this, without referencing what a TD thinks as to why we come to our decision, then that is not our own choice anyway, its based on someone else's thinking or feelings.
This is a personal issue to me, if I'm not happy in my own mind then I won't vote on what anybody else thinks, be they priest, politician or any other type of individual.

Yes, I agree with you regarding what a TD has to say on an issue. I might pay attention to them if it was an issue I was unsure of to get more information.
I just find it interesting where TD's put themselves regarding this issue. A lot I'd say were expecting it just to be on fatal fetal abnormalities and not abortion up to twelve weeks.

david75 · 29-01-2018 3:35am

Let’s be honest. Leo hasn’t given his full throated support for it at all. He’s a political opportunist and thinks he knows the country is divided on it so is hedging his bets by saying he supports it in principle but he ‘isn’t pro choice’.
It’s so greasy and transparent of him it’s kind of disgusting

Martin and FF was a shock. A total shock. But they probably realise the country is more in favour of repealing this than keeping it and are too taking advantage of the wind speed on the ground.

Marriage equality was a feelgood factor and campaign. Few TDs were stupid enough to go against it and most took full advantage of it. None more than Leo. What a perfect time to announce he was gay. And before your tea is cold he’s Taosieach.
He was happy to be the spearhead and face of progressive modern Ireland on that issue.
Now? A foot in both camps and visibly uncomfortable about it.

He’s repulsive.

De Bild · 29-01-2018 4:40am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

As I've said in previous posts I can't call this referendum basing on what I'm hearing at the moment.
If it does pass will it be celebrated in Dublin Castle like when the marriage referendum was announced? or will it just be like a standard referendum.

:D:D Are you a referendum specialist or just incredibly vain?!

De Bild · 29-01-2018 4:43am

I am pro life and this piece sums up my feelings. Especially i have the right to do what i want with my body crap.

https://www.facebook.com/acrossamerica24/videos/160961517847574/?hc_ref=ARTO5piHOhI8kD-w_naNTj5EXKWdCuQB9CEx6oAh-Xl_HqMgjZwZP3jZaSEeYMPdkLw&pnref=story

david75 · 29-01-2018 5:25am

De Bild wrote: »

I am pro life and this piece sums up my feelings. Especially i have the right to do what i want with my body crap.

https://www.facebook.com/acrossamerica24/videos/160961517847574/?hc_ref=ARTO5piHOhI8kD-w_naNTj5EXKWdCuQB9CEx6oAh-Xl_HqMgjZwZP3jZaSEeYMPdkLw&pnref=story

Pages like that also show videos of parents being forcibly removed from America and taken away from their kids simply because they weren’t born in America.

Hang on. I thought mother’s and fathers matter and every life was precious??

Zubeneschamali · 29-01-2018 6:24am

De Bild wrote: »

I am pro life and this piece sums up my feelings

A link to an American video on Facebook sums up what this campaign is going to be like.

nozzferrahhtoo · 29-01-2018 7:30am

De Bild wrote: »

I am pro life and this piece sums up my feelings.

So your position is summed up by a series of misrepresentations and lies about what the fetus does, and is capable of doing, at 8 weeks?

There is a MASSIVE lie in the video too. So you are saying massive lies sum up your feelings? He claims about 21 weeks that "Nearly all of the 1 million abortions committed in the western world last year happened after this time". Not by this time. Not during this time. But AFTER it.

Actually statistics show that in places like and including the US and the UK, with its term limits on abortion, and in places like and including Canada which do not really have limits........ the VAST majority of abortions by choice happen in or before week 12 (over 90%) and the near totality (96-98) by week 16. Would LOVE to know what figures this guy is citing.

I dunno about you, but I certainly would not take a series of misrepresentations and lies and say it sums up my position on anything.

Annasopra · 29-01-2018 8:07am

De Bild wrote: »

I am pro life and this piece sums up my feelings. Especially i have the right to do what i want with my body crap.

https://www.facebook.com/acrossamerica24/videos/160961517847574/?hc_ref=ARTO5piHOhI8kD-w_naNTj5EXKWdCuQB9CEx6oAh-Xl_HqMgjZwZP3jZaSEeYMPdkLw&pnref=story

Fair enough you can feel that way but its not a factual video at all.

....... · 29-01-2018 10:14am

This post has been deleted.

Night Falls · 29-01-2018 10:39am

I’ve been told that by the 8th week a foetus hitting keys on a typewriter an infinite amount of times would eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare, and for that reason I’m against repealing.

Bannasidhe · 29-01-2018 10:52am

volchitsa wrote: »

Personally, if it's passed I will be immensely relieved. Hugely so.

i'm not sure anyone actually "celebrates" abortion though, unlike the first gay marriage for instance, so no, I dont expect there will be much actual celebration as such.

I agree. I know that I will feel relief when this is repealed (and it will be at some point) that the Sword of Damocles that I spend 98% of my 'fertile years' living under will be gone from over the heads of other women.

....... · 29-01-2018 11:12am

This post has been deleted.

Wanderer78 · 29-01-2018 11:17am

Ah shur at least we will all get our say on ballot day now, 'democratically', or will we?

bloodless_coup · 29-01-2018 11:46am

Is this the yoke about killing babies?

Abortion should be allowed in cases where there will be conditions / disabilities with the baby after birth, to improve the over genetic quality of future generations.

Abortion should not be allowed as a lifestyle choice. If you spread your legs and weren't careful enough, you gotta live with the consequences.

SusieBlue · 29-01-2018 11:50am

doylefe wrote: »

Is this the yoke about killing babies?

Abortion should be allowed in cases where there will be conditions / disabilities with the baby after birth, to improve the over genetic quality of future generations.

Abortion should not be allowed as a lifestyle choice. If you spread your legs and weren't careful enough, you gotta live with the consequences.

Absolutely disgusting statement, and sums up all that is wrong with society.

Talk about slut shaming.

bloodless_coup · 29-01-2018 11:58am

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Absolutely disgusting statement, and sums up all that is wrong with society.

Talk about slut shaming.

Slut is a derogatory term. Who would be proud to be slut? "Slut shaming" as a term makes as much sense as "prick shaming".

Anyway i never said anything about "sluts". I said people who aren't careful.

Bannasidhe · 29-01-2018 12:04pm

doylefe wrote: »

Is this the yoke about killing babies?

Abortion should be allowed in cases where there will be conditions / disabilities with the baby after birth, to improve the over genetic quality of future generations.

Abortion should not be allowed as a lifestyle choice. If you spread your legs and weren't careful enough, you gotta live with the consequences.

Anti abortion on 'demand' but pro eugenics - the 1930s would like you to return as you are playing havoc with the time continuum.

SusieBlue · 29-01-2018 12:07pm

doylefe wrote: »

Slut is a derogatory term. Who would be proud to be slut? "Slut shaming" as a term makes as much sense as "prick shaming".

Anyway i never said anything about "sluts". I said people who aren't careful.

Your post shows zero logic.
You used the words "suffer" and "consequences", that would imply you want to punish women for "spreading their legs"(enjoying sex???).
Your post was extremely derogatory.

Putting aside the fact that you lay sole blame, burden and responsibility (what about the man? Did the woman get herself pregnant?) on the woman here, lets play devils advocate.

If a woman was irresponsible enough to "spread her legs" without using any contraception, would you think someone so reckless would make a good parent, if motherhood was forced on them because abortion wasn't available?

Do you think it would be in the best interests of the innocent child to have motherhood forced on someone very irresponsible, reckless, and probably immature?

Or are you just keen on the idea of punishing women?

seamus · 29-01-2018 12:12pm

doylefe wrote: »

Abortion should be allowed in cases where there will be conditions / disabilities with the baby after birth, to improve the over genetic quality of future generations.

In any case, many of the conditions which result in serious of life-limiting defects (such as Down's) are not strictly hereditary and often have the knock-on effect of making the individual infertile.

So whether you're serious or facetious, your statement is nonsense.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 29-01-2018 12:17pm

doylefe wrote: »

Is this the yoke about killing babies?

Abortion should be allowed in cases where there will be conditions / disabilities with the baby after birth, to improve the over genetic quality of future generations.

Abortion should not be allowed as a lifestyle choice. If you spread your legs and weren't careful enough, you gotta live with the consequences.

Mod note: doylefe, don't post in this thread again.

Buford T. Justice

De Bild · 29-01-2018 12:44pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So your position is summed up by a series of misrepresentations and lies about what the fetus does, and is capable of doing, at 8 weeks?

There is a MASSIVE lie in the video too. So you are saying massive lies sum up your feelings? He claims about 21 weeks that "Nearly all of the 1 million abortions committed in the western world last year happened after this time". Not by this time. Not during this time. But AFTER it.

Actually statistics show that in places like and including the US and the UK, with its term limits on abortion, and in places like and including Canada which do not really have limits........ the VAST majority of abortions by choice happen in or before week 12 (over 90%) and the near totality (96-98) by week 16. Would LOVE to know what figures this guy is citing.

I dunno about you, but I certainly would not take a series of misrepresentations and lies and say it sums up my position on anything.

Dress it up whatever way you all like. Murder is Murder.

Reading a boards thread like this one would think 95% of people are pro repeal. A fella makes a comment that abortion will mostly be used for unplanned pregnancies and he is banned.

That's freedom of speech in Ireland for you!

The LGBT referendum also involved bullying of persons who were not in favour. If they spoke against for valid reasons they were lynched by the mob. Yet 37% of the population were against it despite all taxpayers money spent in favour and all propaganda.

Ireland and democracy.. my ar*e.

A child is a human after conception. End of. No other human being has the right to murder it.

Gay Pride marches etc do my head in. I've no problem with anyone's sexuality but at this stage the LGBT is on such a pedestal that we need STRAIGHT marches.

Go on and ban me mods because i don't follow the boards agenda.

Call me Al · 29-01-2018 12:52pm

De Bild... are you againat abortiin in cases of rape, incest or FFA?

De Bild · 29-01-2018 12:54pm

Call me Al wrote: »

De Bild... are you againat abortiin in cases of rape, incest or FFA?

If the life of the mother is in danger by expert medical opinion. If abortion on demand comes in too many innocents will die, 'convenience termination'.

Call me Al · 29-01-2018 12:58pm

De Bild wrote: »

If the life of the mother is in danger by expert medical opinion. If abortion on demand comes in too many innocents will die, 'convenience termination'.

So yes you're against abortion in the those things I've listed?
I think that's what you're saying above.

Night Falls · 29-01-2018 1:00pm

De Bild wrote: »

Dress it up whatever way you all like. Murder is Murder.

Reading a boards thread like this one would think 95% of people are pro repeal. A fella makes a comment that abortion will mostly be used for unplanned pregnancies and he is banned.

That's freedom of speech in Ireland for you!

The LGBT referendum also involved bullying of persons who were not in favour. If they spoke against for valid reasons they were lynched by the mob. Yet 37% of the population were against it despite all taxpayers money spent in favour and all propaganda.

Ireland and democracy.. my ar*e.

A child is a human after conception. End of. No other human being has the right to murder it.

Gay Pride marches etc do my head in. I've no problem with anyone's sexuality but at this stage the LGBT is on such a pedestal that we need STRAIGHT marches.

Go on and ban me mods because i don't follow the boards agenda.

The array of utter stupidity in this post is impressive.

Mr. CooL ICE · 29-01-2018 1:01pm

De Bild wrote: »

Dress it up whatever way you all like. Murder is Murder.

Reading a boards thread like this one would think 95% of people are pro repeal. A fella makes a comment that abortion will mostly be used for unplanned pregnancies and he is banned.

That's freedom of speech in Ireland for you!

The LGBT referendum also involved bullying of persons who were not in favour. If they spoke against for valid reasons they were lynched by the mob. Yet 37% of the population were against it despite all taxpayers money spent in favour and all propaganda.

Ireland and democracy.. my ar*e.

A child is a human after conception. End of. No other human being has the right to murder it.

Gay Pride marches etc do my head in. I've no problem with anyone's sexuality but at this stage the LGBT is on such a pedestal that we need STRAIGHT marches.

Go on and ban me mods because i don't follow the boards agenda.

Mod: There is no boards agenda. People don't get carded/banned for having differing viewpoints. They get carded/banned for breaking the charter and generally disturbing the peace.

Don't discuss mod decisions on-thread. If a post needs mod attention, use the Report Post function. If you want to question mod decisions, PM the mod in question.

Let this be the end of it.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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