The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

ohnonotgmail

Doltanian wrote: »

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

LOL. you realise that Michael Martin has come out in support of repeal?

Bannasidhe

ForestFire wrote: »

Okay its the same difference, it being replaced with what exactly I said in my first post.

The government will decide now, and at any point in the future what the rules are.

Are you happy this will not affect the result? Sway the way some people might vote?

It is the job of government to decide.

They are the ones changed with creating legislation by the Constitution. If the people are not happy with a piece of legislation they can make that known and there are various avenues open to having that legislation withdrawn/changed, or repealed *coff coff water charges*.

Having the 8th in the Constitution prevents government doing it's job and that is exactly what it was designed to do - there was absolutely no legislation on the horizon in the early 80s to legalise abortion. No even a scintilla of a mention of legalising abortion.

If people feel they can't trust the government then that says a lot about electoral choices not the Constitution.

Doltanian

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

LOL. you realise that Michael Martin has come out in support of repeal?

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

All those women marching in support of Repeal are EU Paymasters?!?!?! :eek:

Wait a second... that makes me an EU Paymaster....

#mindblown.

ohnonotgmail

Doltanian wrote: »

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

Really? you base that on what?

swampgas

ForestFire wrote: »

Was it not a democratically elected government and the peoples vote that put it in? And nothing stopped any governments from having a vote anytime to change/remove anytime they wanted, they want just like now.

Again as per further post I'm not asking about the rights or wrongs but how you think this might affect the result?

I don't know if you were around in the 80's when the 8th Amendment was introduced. It was a very different Ireland to the one we see today. There was a genuine panic among some that a Roe vs. Wade judgement could introduce abortion to Ireland. There was a propaganda campaign that you had to have been there to believe. The people were subject to a barrage of the most hateful, wrong, and deceitful propoganda, in a country still in thrall to bishops and priests. It was a grim time, to be honest.

There was no intention to respect the will of the people. The idea was to terrify and brainwash and intimidate a constitional bar on abortion, to slow down the inevitable, as the Irish people became more educated, modern and liberal.

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

I know! Imagine putting something to the electorate to decide.
The utter b*rstards!

Bring down the Government before allowing the people to decide what's i the Constitution! as a campaign slogan it needs work tbh.

david75

swampgas wrote: »

I don't know if you were around in the 80's when the 8th Amendment was introduced. It was a very different Ireland to the one we see today. There was a genuine panic among some that a Roe vs. Wade judgement could introduce abortion to Ireland. There was a propaganda campaign that you had to have been there to believe. The people were subject to a barrage of the most hateful, wrong, and deceitful propoganda, in a country still in thrall to bishops and priests. It was a grim time, to be honest.

There was no intention to respect the will of the people. The idea was to terrify and brainwash and intimidate a constitional bar on abortion, to slow down the inevitable, as the Irish people became more educated, modern and liberal.

Same BS tactics still work. Fear lies intimidation etc.
Lisbon II

Doltanian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All those women marching in support of Repeal are EU Paymasters?!?!?! :eek:

Wait a second... that makes me an EU Paymaster....

#mindblown.

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

Ah. You are one of those.

It's like there is a rip in the fabric of time and the 1930s are leaking through.

swampgas

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

Pinochet? Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Human_rights_violations

uptherebels

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

you left out anti democratic

dudara

Doltanian wrote: »

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

Why are you worried about a referendum taking place?

Go out there, campaign, do your best to convince others of your perspective. Then let the people vote. It's going to be close, no doubt about it, but at least we will find out the will of the people, one way or the other.

murpho999

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

At least you're pro democracy and will respect the result I hope.

I don't get why people want children born to people who are capable at the time to offer the love and support it needs.

Or to neglect the needs of the pregnant lady both mentally and physically.

I strongly believe that abortion is a highly personal choice of the woman who will be going through a highly difficult and personal crisis of which you or I have no real right to say that she should be denied the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

baylah17

Doltanian wrote: »

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All those women marching in support of Repeal are EU Paymasters?!?!?! :eek:

Wait a second... that makes me an EU Paymaster....

#mindblown.

What about the babies themselves

They are not babies just feotuses

Kurtosis

drkpower wrote: »

Sorry to distract you. It's an interesting aside of some passing relevance. You don't have to engage with it.

It's of fairly limited relevance when the scenario you describe is not possible under the proposed changes, as well as being incredibly unlikely even if was possible.

It's important to make it clear when a hypothetical is being discussed, otherwise it can easily muddy the waters, especially with the prevailing "voting for uncertainty" and "slippery slope" narratives.

murpho999

Doltanian wrote: »

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

You really should look up the meaning of the word genocide.

Have you not noticed that there are still plenty of people existing in countries that permit abortion?

drkpower

Kurtosis wrote: »

It's of fairly limited relevance when the scenario you describe is not possible under the proposed changes, as well as being incredibly unlikely even if was possible.

It's important to make it clear when a hypothetical is being discussed, otherwise it can easily muddy the waters, especially with the prevailing "voting for uncertainty" and "slippery slope" narratives.

I agree; that's why I used the word hypothetical a few times.

Jim Ellis

Claire Byrne on RTE1 going live to government buildings shortly

Doltanian

dudara wrote: »

Why are you worried about a referendum taking place?

Go out there, campaign, do your best to convince others of your perspective. Then let the people vote. It's going to be close, no doubt about it, but at least we will find out the will of the people, one way or the other.

There should be referendum on killing innocent babies. Full Stop. Irish people are not capable of being trusted at the ballot box, they twice changed their minds on the EU and this campaign will be steamrolled by the left and SJW's. I stand with the Right and the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I am a young person and I always speak my mind and never hide what I believe.

homerjay2005

not sure how i will vote but have to say Varadker must now rank as the most progressive leader in our history.

he is a breath of fresh air.

ricero

If its all out open abortion then i think i will vote no.

The wording will be key. If its for severe disabilities and rape victims then i would consider voting yes.

Even we return a no vote the fact remains women will still get abortions abroad, I can understand people objecting to abortion but unless you are actively lobbying the UK government to block Irish women accessing abortions then it's a case of not on my doorstep and inflicting unnecessary hardships and suffering for them here by denying them access to abortion and forcing them go abroad.

Doltanian

murpho999 wrote: »

You really should look up the meaning of the word genocide.

Have you not noticed that there are still plenty of people existing in countries that permit abortion?

Lookup White Genocide, the population replacement agenda driven by the leftwing marxist organisations around the world to make European White people a minority and to end Anglo-American-European Hegemony in the world.

Itssoeasy

I'm listening to Ronan Mullen from earlier today on Sean O' rourke and surely the pro life side of the argument have a better spokesperson than him. I mean it's not his points it's the snarky tone he uses. It doesn't help in any way.

Edit: Also the fact he worked for the Catholic Church will not help people who for whatever reason aren't fans of the Catholic Church when he talks about respect for children and women. The Catholic Church hasn't had a stellar history in this regard.

eviltwin

ricero wrote: »

If its all out open abortion then i think i will vote no.

The wording will be key. If its for severe disabilities and rape victims then i would consider voting yes.

You cannot allow abortion in the case of rape without allowing it for all.

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

There should be referendum on killing innocent babies. Full Stop. Irish people are not capable of being trusted at the ballot box, they twice changed their minds on the EU and this campaign will be steamrolled by the left and SJW's. I stand with the Right and the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I am a young person and I always speak my mind and never hide what I believe.

You mean a referendum on whether or not the 8th Amendment is kept or repealed?
Who do you suppose should vote in this referendum of young person who speaks your mind?

murpho999

ricero wrote: »

If its all out open abortion then i think i will vote no.

The wording will be key. If its for severe disabilities and rape victims then i would consider voting yes.

It will be to repeal the 8th.

Simple as that.

Legislation will then decide the terms afterwards.

I don't get why a rape victim's child is ok to be aborted but not that of an unwanted crisis pregnancy. I don't see the difference.

SusieBlue

Doltanian wrote: »

There should be referendum on killing innocent babies. Full Stop. Irish people are not capable of being trusted at the ballot box, they twice changed their minds on the EU and this campaign will be steamrolled by the left and SJW's. I stand with the Right and the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I am a young person and I always speak my mind and never hide what I believe.

How anyone could stand behind the RCC after the atrocities they committed on the citizens of this country (particularly women, children born out of wedlock, and gay people) is absolutely abhorrent to me.

murpho999

Doltanian wrote: »

Lookup White Genocide, the population replacement agenda driven by the leftwing marxist organisations around the world to make European White people a minority and to end Anglo-American-European Hegemony in the world.

Sorry but you're talkng absolute sh1te.

Women don't have abortions because of Marxist plots.

kenmc

ricero wrote: »

If its all out open abortion then i think i will vote no.

The wording will be key. If its for severe disabilities and rape victims then i would consider voting yes.

Why? I'm not yet seeing the part where abortion will be compulsory for all, not just for rape victims, severe disabilities etc...

Weren't the RCC only the other day trying to link legalising abortion to the opening of a door to euthanasia for the elderly and people with disabilities.

EDIT: I'm really not looking forward to this campaign , my eyes will be rolling in my head so fast it'll look like they are still

Itssoeasy

Deleted User wrote: »

Weren't the RCC only the other day trying to link legalising abortion to the opening of a door euthanasia of the elderly and people with disabilities.

Well it was mentioned in the Sean o rourke show today with Ronan Mullen and it did seem a bit extreme of a point to make, and not based on any facts that I could see.

ricero

kenmc wrote: »

Why? I'm not yet seeing the part where abortion will be compulsory for all, not just for rape victims, severe disabilities etc...

Abortion cannot be used as a form of contraception. Society cannot become a place without responsibilities and abortion a way out for people who dont use contraceptive methods when practicising sex.

Jim Ellis

Deleted User wrote: »

Weren't the RCC only the other day trying to link legalising abortion to the opening of a door to euthanasia for the elderly and people with disabilities.

They have a point. Morals and value of human life are slowly being eroded in society. The right-on liberals will find something else to focus their attention on after this referendum is passed.

Soulsun

What date will the referendum likely be?

Arghus

Soulsun wrote: »

What date will the referendum likely be?

End of May.

The bull****!t's goanna be non-stop until then.

kenmc

ricero wrote: »

Abortion cannot be used as a form of contraception. Society cannot become a place without responsibilities and abortion a way out for people who dont use contraceptive methods when practicising sex.

What about those whose contraceptives fail for any reason?

I really hope that's a very short horse you're riding there, high ones can cause serious injuries when you fall off

Jim Ellis

Jim Ellis wrote: »

They have a point. Morals and value of human life are slowly being eroded in society. The right-on liberals will find something else to focus their attention on after this referendum is passed.

Well you could say the same for the other side, if we vote no will they concentrate their efforts on getting a womans right to travel for an abortion removed?

ricero

kenmc wrote: »

What about those whose contraceptives fail for any reason?

I really hope that's a very short horse you're riding there, high ones can cause serious injuries when you fall off

God damn you passive agressive liberals. Respect my opinion !

murpho999

ricero wrote: »

Abortion cannot be used as a form of contraception. Society cannot become a place without responsibilities and abortion a way out for people who dont use contraceptive methods when practicising sex.

It's not a form of contraception.

People should not be forced to having a child that they do not want or cannot support or for making a mistake.

I also strongly believe it's a highly personal choice for women and not for society.

Also, it's not led to any problems in other societies that have permitted abortion for around 50 years now.

Itssoeasy

Deleted User wrote: »

Weren't the RCC only the other day trying to link legalising abortion to the opening of a door to euthanasia for the elderly and people with disabilities.

EDIT: I'm really not looking forward to this campaign , my eyes will be rolling in my head so fast it'll look like they are still

yeah I'm not looking forward to it either because this issue is an extremely emotive one with strong views on both sides. I've no problem with people having a respectful and frank exchange of views on the issue. I think the facts need to be the central and most important thing. I feel both sides need to deal in facts.

I would say in January 2018 I'm most certainly in the undecided column. That's why I mentioned about Ronan Mullen being a poor spokesperson(or advocate) for the anti repeal side. He certainly puts me off.

Army_of_One

Doltanian wrote: »

Lookup White Genocide, the population replacement agenda driven by the leftwing marxist organisations around the world to make European White people a minority and to end Anglo-American-European Hegemony in the world.

lol

Night Falls

There is a whole lot of crazy on this thread and it is absolutely fascinating to watch.

Loafing Oaf

ricero wrote: »

The wording will be key. If its for severe disabilities and rape victims then i would consider voting yes.

It won't be...

Bannasidhe

Jim Ellis wrote: »

They have a point. Morals and value of human life are slowly being eroded in society. The right-on liberals will find something else to focus their attention on after this referendum is passed.

Yes, in the good old days there was huge respect for morals and the value of life which is why unmarried women were forced into laundries and their children, the ones who didn't die of neglect and get left in a septic tank, were sold to Americans.

How dare the liberals insist on closing the laundries and compensating the women. The cheek of liberals to insist that being an unmarried mother is not a crime worthy of incarceration of mother and child. The absolute nerve of liberals to deny the Church and State the right to sell children in return for lucrative export contracts.

Itssoeasy

Jim Ellis wrote: »

They have a point. Morals and value of human life are slowly being eroded in society. The right-on liberals will find something else to focus their attention on after this referendum is passed.

Well with respect I think to say that Ireland was a shining city on the hill(to use the American phrase) in terms of value of human life in particular is seeing things through rose tinted glasses. The magdeline laundries, sex abuse scandals certainly don't point to any value of human life. It's good that we as a country are more excepting and more open. And the Catholic Church is still around and the poeple who wish to go to mass do so but it's not the iron grip it once had.

Odhinn

Jim Ellis wrote: »

They have a point. Morals and value of human life are slowly being eroded in society. The right-on liberals will find something else to focus their attention on after this referendum is passed.

These would be the crowd who were selling babies for cash, allowing vast amounts of child abuse go unchecked, putting infants remains in unmarked graves, septic tanks, harrassing unmarried mothers or those of whoms lifetstyles they disapproved? That RC?

Odhinn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, in the good old days there was huge respect for morals and the value of life which is why unmarried women were forced into laundries and their children, the ones who didn't die of neglect and get left in a septic tank, were sold to Americans.

How dare the liberals insist on closing the laundries and compensating the women. The cheek of liberals to insist that being an unmarried mother is not a crime worthy of incarceration of mother and child. The absolute nerve of liberals to deny the Church and State the right to sell children in return for lucrative export contracts.

We are on the same wavelength. Truly the end is nigh.

Laois_Man

My main gripe with the governments chosen method is when you take it out of the constitution and into the hands of the legislatures, every General Election forever more could effectively become another abortion referendum with every party proposing new changes as part of their manifesto. Whatever the new text is, if any, it needs to continue to live in the constitution