The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

pilly

I see all the nutters are coming out of the woodwork now that panic is setting in.

Guy:Incognito

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why are embryos implanted as a result of rape or incest less deserving of life than those implanted as a result of contraception fail

That's up to the woman concerned to decide. Pro choice is letting people decide for themselves . Pro life is deciding for them.

How many life changing decisions would you like me to make for you? Bearing in mind I know nothing about you?

nozzferrahhtoo

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "Life". If you mean pure biology then that is one thing, but if you mean in terms of rights, morals, ethics, person hood and actual humanity that is different.

"Life" is not one catch all term that you can switch definitions in and out to suit yourself. You have to be clear what you mean.



Yes, it is limited to agents with the capacity to even REQUIRE a choice. We do not give rocks choice do we? Why give it to a fetus? What attribute does a fetus has that a spider does not that makes you suddenly concerns about it having "choice"?


Yet you can not offer a way to allow such women to access abortion, which keeping it from others. You have not even TRIED to answer that in fact. Dodge much?

20 years ago a mother in Omagh was carrying a set of twins inside her womb, the IRA killed her and her unborn children. Were they children or just a fetus?

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

I have made my point clear if you want to continue to twist my words that is up to you.

Many women who have low incomes make wonderful parents, it's ignorant to think that you have to be rich to raise and love a child.

I don't think that. What I do think is ignorant is someone assuming to know enough about everybody else's life an circumstances so as to dictate to them that they have to have a baby that they may well have tried very hard not to have.

Deleted User wrote: »

Then dont have Sex, its that easy.

Sex is not a legal right, you have no demand for it as a partner.

Do you think married couples/partners should have legal rights to sex?


Sex is a choice, if you are so Pro-Choice then choose not to have sex instead of choosing to kill a child.

So, a couple who have been together donkeys years should be celibate unless they want to have a baby. Regardless of financial status, inclination toward having a child, or indeed the fact that they may already have a bunch of children and just don't want to have any more?

And can you PLEASE explain how your mechanic for allowing victims of rape to access abortion while withholding it from everyone else?

baylah17

emo72 wrote: »

Man I have to say, that's some ancient medieval thinking right there.

And posted by one who clearly, pardon the phrase, has never had a good ride.
Sex is as much a recreational activity as it is anything else.

emo72

emo72 wrote: »

Man I have to say, that's some ancient medieval thinking right there.

Edit, and I'm not being personal, just had to reply to your statement.

Im medieval? I want to protect life, you want to kill it.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Then dont have Sex, its that easy.

Sex is not a legal right, you have no demand for it as a partner.

Do you think married couples/partners should have legal rights to sex?


Sex is a choice, if you are so Pro-Choice then choose not to have sex instead of choosing to kill a child.

Except that a marriage isn't legal until consummated so there is certainly an obligation to have sex as far as the law is concerned.

Do you suggest a newly married couple who want to wait before having children - or don't wish to have children - never 'finalise' their legal requirements to be considered married just to be sure there are no 'accidents'?

I'm getting the distinct impression you aren't thinking this through - that what you really want is women to be punished if they have 'penetrative' sex and don't want children.

baylah17

baylah17 wrote: »

And posted by one who clearly, pardon the phrase, has never had a good ride.
Sex is as much a recreational activity as it is anything else.

Is it a legal right?

Do you have to have sex to exist?

ohnonotgmail

Hard to believe that nearly 6000 posts in that rabid ignorance is still being posted.

Another website i frequent has a tagline that goes

The Straight Dope
Fighting ignorance since 1973. (It's taking longer than we thought.)

aint that the truth.

baylah17

Deleted User wrote: »

20 years ago a mother in Omagh was carrying a set of twins inside her womb, the IRA killed her and her unborn children. Were they children or just a fetus?

And 5 years ago Savita Hallapanavar was sentenced to death by the so called Irish Health system because of the same stone aged views that espouse.

joeyanne

joeyanne wrote: »

You don't seem to understand that some people, even when in a relationship, do not want children. This may be a personal choice, due to medical reasons or any other reason that is NOT your business.

If you do not believe in allowing abortion, then do not get one. But please please be open-minded to the fact that peoples personal choices are not your business, and their choices have nothing to do with you. Nor will their choices affect you personally.

Why are you so passionate about killing unborn children?

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes Contraception fails, but if you are in a loving relationship you should be in a position to have the child.

.

so a 17 year old homeless couple on the street, they love each other and the girl gets pregnant due to contraception failing.

By your view they are in a position to have a child or are you going to claim they don't "properly" love each other
:rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

That's up to the woman concerned to decide. Pro choice is letting people decide for themselves . Pro life is deciding for them.

How many life changing decisions would you like me to make for you? Bearing in mind I know nothing about you?

You do realise I was asking Mr Freeview that question as he's fine with abortion after rape/incest but not after a contraception fail.

baylah17

baylah17 wrote: »

And 5 years ago Savita Hallapanavar was sentenced to death by the so called Irish Health system because of the same stone aged views that espouse.

That is a strange case in that the Medical teams could have performed an abortion. I have also read that she died of E-Coli and an abortion would have not prevented this.

Either way, I do believe abortion for medical reasons should be allowed.

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you so passionate about killing unborn children?

Why are you ok will "killing" life after conception with the morning after pill and why are you ok by allowing "killing" by being ok with women traveling for abortions?

Cabaal

Cabaal wrote: »

so a 17 year old homeless couple on the street, they love each other and the girl gets pregnant due to contraception failing.

By your view they are in a position to have a child or are you going to claim they don't "properly" love each other
:rolleyes:

You are really grasping at straws now, a homeless couple of the street should have more pressing matters than having sex.

baylah17

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it a legal right?

Do you have to have sex to exist?

It is a legal right to engage in consensual sexual activity once you reach the age of such consent, yes.

Guy:Incognito

Howard Tasteless Bank wrote: »

I don't get the thing where on the one hand discussions like this are unrepresentative of the Irish people who are staunchly and quietly pro-life, or at least will balk at unrestricted access up until 12 weeks, and on the other hand the place will turn into the last days of Rome (but with sh1ts n giggles abortions) if the 8th is repealed. Is the 8th keeping Irish morality correct and so not representative of social mores, or is it representative of those mores and so repealing it will have relatively little effect? Pro-life seem very divided on that point.

Sure morality is gone. the gays got their way and are off forcing anyone not shackled to a spouse (of the opposite sex) to marry them and have the wrong type of sex with them forever(or until they get bored and move on to the next victim, cos they're incapable of monogamy don't you know)

Cabaal

Cabaal wrote: »

Why are you ok will "killing" life after conception with the morning after pill and why are you ok by allowing "killing" by being ok with women traveling for abortions?

Because it hasn't travelled to the womb at that stage.

baylah17

baylah17 wrote: »

It is a legal right to engage in consensual sexual activity once you reach the age of such consent, yes.

Yes to have sex is legal with a partner who has agreed, but is it a legal right for you to get sex?

optogirl

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you so passionate about killing unborn children?

This narrative that people who are pro CHOICE are motivated by blood lust is a disgusting ruse made by the pre-birth movement to demonise women making difficult decisions in often very difficult circumstances - you will not demonise me for supporting such women in those choices, whatever they may be. Get down off your soapbox for a moment and spend a tenth of the time you spend wringing your hands about zygotes on trying to help people in your society.

jobbridge4life

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Sure morality is gone. the gays got their way and are off forcing anyone not shackled to a spouse (of the opposite sex) to marry them and have the wrong type of sex with them forever(or until they get bored and move on to the next victim, cos they're incapable of monogamy don't you know)

I myself have already forcibly married several small villages worth of men. I intend to be the biggest landholder in the south soon enough.

optogirl

optogirl wrote: »

This narrative that people who are pro CHOICE are motivated by blood lust is a disgusting ruse made by the pre-birth movement to demonise women making difficult decisions in often very difficult circumstances - you will not demonise me for supporting such women in those choices, whatever they may be. Get down off your soapbox for a moment and spend a tenth of the time you spend wringing your hands about zygotes on trying to help people in your society.

But that is the cold hard truth, you want to legislate to kill unborn children.

Do you not understand what abortion is?

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many abortions do you think someone can have?

https://m.independent.ie/woman/i-had-15-abortions-it-was-my-terrible-addiction-26625443.html

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes to have sex is legal with a partner who has agreed, but is it a legal right for you to get sex?

I could be waaay off base here but you seem to have a wee bit of an issue with sex.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/woman/i-had-15-abortions-it-was-my-terrible-addiction-26625443.html

I had 15 abortions... it was my terrible addiction

How lovely.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I could be waaay off base here but you seem to have a wee bit of an issue with sex.

Well im in a loving relationship with my wife, so no issues here!

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

You are really grasping at straws now, a homeless couple of the street should have more pressing matters than having sex.

It's human nature,
They are free to have sex and they are in love so they had sex. Nothing wrong with it.

They are in love so by your logic they are in a position to have a baby.
I'm just applying your failed logic.

optogirl

Deleted User wrote: »

I had 15 abortions... it was my terrible addiction

How lovely.

... and some people have addictions to plastic surgery, cocaine, alcohol, chocolate, sex, marrying inanimate objects - it doesn't mean we need to legislate for the rest of the population based on these unusual cases.

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes to have sex is legal with a partner who has agreed, but is it a legal right for you to get sex?

But how can you provide timely abortions for rape victims without opening it up as a free for all for any woman who says she was raped?

joeyanne

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why are you so passionate about killing unborn children?

I'm passionate about respecting woman enough to give them the choice over their own bodily autonomy.

But thank you for recognising my passion!

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, because I think the cost and hassle of going to the UK should be enough of a deterrent to put women off that abortion is something to be taken likely.

I would like to see abortion legalised for Rape, Medical reasons and those carrying a child within incest. I do not want to see women charged with a crime for travelling to the UK.

And what sort of proof will you make a woman produce to show the sex wasn't consensual so as to satisfy your morals (and anyone who doesn't share your morals can **** off anyway andd live by them)

Cabaal

Cabaal wrote: »

It's human nature,
They are free to have sex and they are in love so they had sex. Nothing wrong with it.

They are in love so by your logic they are in a position to have a baby.
I'm just applying your failed logic.

Just where are the homeless couple having sex?

kylith

kylith wrote: »

But how can you provide timely abortions for rape victims without opening it up as a free for all for any woman who says she was raped?

Well if she is going to claim Rape she will need to report it to the Gardai, if she then backs out of the case for lying she should be charged.

joeyanne

joeyanne wrote: »

I'm passionate about respecting woman enough to give them the choice over their own bodily autonomy.

But thank you for recognising my passion!

Its a deep deep shame that you are not passionate about protecting the life of an unborn child.

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When do you think life begins?

Or do you think there is a troll inside a woman mixing up some goo and sticking stuff together?

Everyone in the country appears to believe when life begins, ask them their age and I doubt anyone will quote it from conception .

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it hasn't travelled to the womb at that stage.

ah, so its life when you say it is.

And why are you ok with women traveling to the UK for abortions?
Is that not the same sort of "killing"?

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have made my point clear if you want to continue to twist my words that is up to you.

Many women who have low incomes make wonderful parents, it's ignorant to think that you have to be rich to raise and love a child.

And many women don't make wonderful parents. Let them decide for themselves what they want.

baylah17

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0130/936946-eighth-amendment-cabinet-referendum/
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, he said: "Whether the Eighth Amendment is in our Constitution, or indeed not in our Constitution, abortion is a reality for Irish women.

"I cannot close my eyes and block my ears to the fact that 3,265 of our citizens travelled to the UK in 2016 from every county in Ireland.

"I cannot stand over a situation where the abortion pill is illegally accessed in this country and women, perhaps in the privacy of their own bedroom, in a lonely isolated place, [are] taking a pill without any medical supervision."

I owe that man a pint, well said Minister, well said.

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if she is going to claim Rape she will need to report it to the Gardai, if she then backs out of the case for lying she should be charged.

So any woman who walks into a Garda station and says that she was raped but doesn't know who did it cos she couldn't see their face and it was a few months ago so there's no physical evidence should get an abortion with no further ado?

And women who haven't been raped but still want an abortion won't just claim they were raped because... what?

And women who were genuinely raped but the case can't be proven or she is too traumatised to continue get charged?

nozzferrahhtoo

Well nice to see you are not dodging and ignoring ALL my posts, just 99% of them.

Deleted User wrote: »

20 years ago a mother in Omagh was carrying a set of twins inside her womb, the IRA killed her and her unborn children. Were they children or just a fetus?

Medically they were a fetus. Your narrative might call them "children". Whether they were of moral or ethical concern to me however would be based on what AGE of a fetus they were.

What the murder of a woman, and her fetus against her will, has to do with a woman choosing abortion though.... is anyone's guess.

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it hasn't travelled to the womb at that stage.

So rights are a matter of location

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Because rape is an evil thing, nobody should be made to suffer.

So? The unborn child didn't commit the rape. What's some suffering compared to a human life?

I would have more respect for the pro-life viewpoint if they didn't weasel out of defending their position when faced with unpleasant circumstances.

Ave Sodalis

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So rights are a matter of location

He made that very clear when he said he'd no problem with women traveling for abortions

baylah17

baylah17 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0130/936946-eighth-amendment-cabinet-referendum/
Speaking on RTs Morning Ireland, he said: "Whether the Eighth Amendment is in our Constitution, or indeed not in our Constitution, abortion is a reality for Irish women.

"I cannot close my eyes and block my ears to the fact that 3,265 of our citizens travelled to the UK in 2016 from every county in Ireland.

"I cannot stand over a situation where the abortion pill is illegally accessed in this country and women, perhaps in the privacy of their own bedroom, in a lonely isolated place, [are] taking a pill without any medical supervision."

I owe that man a pint, well said Minister, well said.

3,265 Now, 30,365 when abortion is legalised.

Life is cheap.

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe once you conceive you are having a child.

And I believe the process typically takes nine months, not six.

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

Just where are the homeless couple having sex?

So are you going to admit your logic is failed or are you just going to continue with your silly response? Only an incredibility dim person would actually have no idea where a homeless couple could have sex.

Ask yourself this, if you were outside in a park and wanted to have sex, where would you have sex....use your imagination.
:rolleyes:

Your logic is heavily flawed, you just won't admit it.

nozzferrahhtoo

Deleted User wrote: »

3,265 Now, 30,365 when abortion is legalised.

Any citations to back that up?

baylah17

Deleted User wrote: »

3,265 Now, 30,365 when abortion is legalised.

Life is cheap.

From the same stable that gave us "Hello divorce, Goodby Daddy" :rolleyes:

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

3,265 Now, 30,365 when abortion is legalised.

Life is cheap.

per annum? That's 50% the birth rate!? Do you think women will be getting pregnant just to have an abortion?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Just where are the homeless couple having sex?

none of your business. you are obsessed with other people having sex.