The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

expectationlost

seamus wrote: »

Considering the survey won't even be published until tomorrow, you're making a lot of declarations about what it does and doesn't say.

Where's your evidence that it's a lie?

theres a cache of the description of the poll here

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:04CNC6vUzr8J:https://www.imt.ie/news/majority-medics-back-abortion-12-weeks-imt-poll-reveals-07-02-2018/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

its their website (reg needed) poll, a facebook poll and a twitter poll all added together obviously not stringent enough to report on by anyone else, no matter what you view theres no justifying putting this poll on the front page of a newspaper at all

expectationlost

Candamir wrote: »

FFS

The survey asks medical doctors what their opinion is on a subject.
‘Are you a medical doctor’ - yes/no
‘Do you Support 12 week access.....’ - yes/no/don’t know

At some point you have to either believe (a) that people who answer surveys are generally honest, and the survey is therefore an accurate representation of their feelings, or (b)that they’re telling lies and therefore surveys are useless.

If you believe (b) then disregard all survey/poll/non concrete evidence from here on out. Including pretty much everything you see on the various prolife posters.

You can also include everything that comes out of the CSO, as that’s also only a survey. If you keep going down this path, you’ll soon find you can’t really believe anything much at all!

the cso double check a sample of their data

Candamir

expectationlost wrote: »

the cso double check a sample of their data

What? You mean they call around and ask complicated questions on catechism to see if you answered the religion question right? Such as ‘do you believe in god?’ (As according to some on here, ‘yes’ is not a requirement to mark yourself down as Catholic!)

Or is in fact they just check that you answered the questions and take your word for it that you were truthful?

Candamir

keano_afc wrote: »

The IMT have deleted the poll. They won't even stand over it themselves. It seems it's only accepted by the good people on boards.ie. Thank goodness for anonymous internet chat forums.

Really? It’s still on their FB Page. More ‘fake news’ keano!

expectationlost

Candamir wrote: »

Really? It’s still on their FB Page. More ‘fake news’ keano!

https://www.imt.ie/news/majority-medics-back-abortion-12-weeks-imt-poll-reveals-07-02-2018/ cache https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:04CNC6vUzr8J:https://www.imt.ie/news/majority-medics-back-abortion-12-weeks-imt-poll-reveals-07-02-2018/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

pleas advice

93 votes on Twitter

https://twitter.com/IMT_latest/status/956898931639808001


245 votes on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/IrishMedicalTimes/posts/1535939343128217


thats 338 out of 388 responses,

Irish Medical Times wrote:

With 388 votes cast, 285 responses (73%) said ‘Yes’ they would support the introduction of abortion on request up to 12 weeks into a pregnancy; 96 (25%) said ‘No’ they would not support the introduction while 7 (2%) did not know.

Responses from readers were made by going to the Irish Medical Times Twitter @IMT_latest, Facebook www.facebook.com/IrishMedical Times/or our website at www.imt.ie.

frag420

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/01/permission-given-to-create-britains-first-three-person-babies

Doctors in Newcastle have been granted permission to create Britain’s first “three-person babies” for two women who are at risk of passing on devastating and incurable genetic diseases to their children.

A questions for the pro life side, would you be in support of a three parent child developed in a lab as per the article above if it meant a reduction in abortions as there would be a reduction in the risk of passing on devastating and incurable genetic diseases to children which is a reason that many cite for procuring an abortion?

ohnonotgmail

Why are the pro-life crowd so terrified by a poll?

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Why are the pro-life crowd so terrified by a poll?

Propaganda, its the same both ways.
The pro choice are horrified at posters.

_Dara_

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

The thing is, it's their own cause their hurting in the long run by deluding themselves about the strength of their position. There seems to be a narrative emerging among the pro-lifers that even if the referendum and the 12-week legislation pass, the proposed abortion regime will never come into effect because there won't be enough GPs to make it work. Nitpicking about the details of this survey's methodology will help to sustain that narrative, but if it turns out to be a false hope...

This is true. I’m wary of declarations about the strength of one’s own position, no matter the side. The polls will decide. Do your campaigning, try to convince people but don’t be cocky about the outcome because you don’t know what it will be.

Nettle Soup

erica74 wrote: »

I can't remember if I've contributed to this thread already, I think I may have at different stages.
The conversation about the 8th is everywhere, it's hard to escape it, whether you want to or not.

Throughout my life, I have often thought of how the 8th could have impacted me. My brother sexually abused me for years when I was a child. I often think about if I had ended up pregnant as a result of the abuse. The resulting baby would have been a baby born from incest with who knows what sort of severe health problems and I would have been a seriously damaged person as a result, I am damaged enough as is.

When I think of the 8th, I think of other young girls, young women and women in general who are being abused, by a partner or a family member and the impact the 8th (as it is) may have on them.

I fully support abortion, abortions for every woman who wants one, no matter what the reason. My experience is just one of a thousand reasons why a woman might seek an abortion.
I think back to being 10 years old and not understanding a fucking thing about my life and I am scared for myself. It's a terrifying thought. What if.

I doubt any Pro-8th people will respond to this post. They simply do not want to know about these scenarios.

Thank you for being so open.

NuMarvel

captbarnacles wrote: »

Do Iona oppose the right to travel?

Can't be certain, but I've never heard them speak out about it, or about anyone who travels.

The Pro Life Campaign group campaigned for a No vote in the referendum on the 13th Amendment, but you don't hear anything it from them now.

Zubeneschamali

NuMarvel wrote: »

The Pro Life Campaign group campaigned for a No vote in the referendum on the 13th Amendment, but you don't hear anything it from them now.

600,000 people voted against the right to travel back then, but I have never heard anyone ever say that they were one of them.

Very shy crew.

seamus

expectationlost wrote: »

its their website (reg needed) poll, a facebook poll and a twitter poll all added together obviously not stringent enough to report on by anyone else, no matter what you view theres no justifying putting this poll on the front page of a newspaper at all

Sure, but I see nothing anywhere to suggest that the IMT lied about the poll or the results.

The questions asks, "Would you, as a medical practitioner..."

Methodology aside, the IMT simply presented the results as-is, it doesn't make any claims that those who answered are all definitely medical practitioners.

Considering there were only 300-odd responses, it would be wrong to assume the poll was brigaded by pro-choice laypeople, but either way, as you say, it's not really front page news.

Did anyone put it on the front page, or was it just a few online outlets?

applehunter

It was on the front page of yesterday's Examiner.

Loafing Oaf

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Why are the pro-life crowd so terrified by a poll?

In this instance, because one of the straws they are clutching at if the referendum passes is that there won't be enough GPs willing to cooperate with the proposed abortion plans to make them workable. Now, I'm sure that reasonably well informed pro-life know with the rational part of their brains that this is nonsense, but when you're fighting for a lost cause you cling to these delusions...

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This post has been deleted.

Edward M

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I doubt any Pro-8th people will respond to this post. They simply do not want to know about these scenarios.

Thank you for being so open.

I wouldn't be absolutely in favour of abortion in all cases up to twelve weeks or any time limit.
I would class my self as pro life.
I'm voting against the eighth though, precisely because of cases such as erica 74 has described.
Its unfair to portray all pro life campaigners as being unsympathetic gargoyles or mysogonistic bastards.
There is a middle ground and there is a danger of name calling and calling out of specific points of view upsetting voters like myself and driving them back over the retain line.
A bit of respect goes a long way sometimes.

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This post has been deleted.

Edward M

....... wrote: »

This is a bit of an odd statement to make?

Are you trying to imply that if someone is disrespectful towards you because of how you (and they) feel re the 8th Amendment that you would vote differently to "punish" the pro choice side or something?

Because - people need to vote according to what they believe to be right, not on whether or not they dont like other people.

I wasn't referring to myself, no.
I was thinking of those that might be on the fence.
I was wondering actually also, how would I be classed in this voting scenario?

Captain Obvious

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

600,000 people voted against the right to travel back then, but I have never heard anyone ever say that they were one of them.

Very shy crew.

Does it come up often in conversation. I don't know how a single person voted in that referendum.

NuMarvel

Edward M wrote: »

I wouldn't be absolutely in favour of abortion in all cases up to twelve weeks or any time limit.
I would class my self as pro life.
I'm voting against the eighth though, precisely because of cases such as erica 74 has described.
Its unfair to portray all pro life campaigners as being unsympathetic gargoyles or mysogonistic bastards.
There is a middle ground and there is a danger of name calling and calling out of specific points of view upsetting voters like myself and driving them back over the retain line.
A bit of respect goes a long way sometimes.

In fairness to Nettle, they didn't specify pro-life people, but pro-8th. And as you've shown, there is a difference between the two. Pro life people can be opposed to abortion, and still want the 8th gone.

I have no doubt pro life people will find it difficult to vote for change, but I think many will vote Yes because they know that, on balance, the status quo is worse.

Edward M

I did read nettles post wrongly.

expectationlost

seamus wrote: »

Sure, but I see nothing anywhere to suggest that the IMT lied about the poll or the results.

The questions asks, "Would you, as a medical practitioner..."

Methodology aside, the IMT simply presented the results as-is, it doesn't make any claims that those who answered are all definitely medical practitioners.

Considering there were only 300-odd responses, it would be wrong to assume the poll was brigaded by pro-choice laypeople, but either way, as you say, it's not really front page news.

Did anyone put it on the front page, or was it just a few online outlets?

yes this is the problem it was on the front page of the Irish Examiner paper. it was covered by the Irish TImes thejournal and the Indo online.

Im not savethe8th, Im not bothered by the poll itself but Im appalled that Irish Examiner put it on the front page, its such a mistake of judgment and will harm them as a source of news for years to come.

see the IE frontpage that day http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/02/07/de-thursday-papers-251/

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NuMarvel

Edward M wrote: »

I did read nettles post wrongly.

You raised a good point nonetheless; that those who will or are likely to vote Yes in the referendum are a diverse group. Not everyone is going to agree on what should happen after Repeal & Enable (or whatever ends up on the ballot paper), but if we all agree that Repeal & Enable is better than the status quo, then I think it's worthwhile recognising and acknowledging that.

Frank Bullitt

captbarnacles wrote: »

Do Iona oppose the right to travel?

Iona generally campaign against what most, decent human beings want.

So there is a high probability that they do.

pilly

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think Edward makes excellent points and has made excellent contributions to this thread.

The fact that you don't understand why people would be on the fence doesn't mean that there's not a lot of them out there. I personally know many people who can't decide what to do and I empathise with them.

And the extremes on either side are going to convince people one way or the other, whether we like that fact or not.

I know pro-life people who grit their teeth every time Iona is mentioned because they know that those sort of people do no good for the pro-life side.

Also, there are some on the pro-choice side that make me cringe too. We all know the type. "Abortion with no time limit" bull****. People can not buy into that and it will turn them off completely.

Zubeneschamali

expectationlost wrote: »

its such a mistake of judgment and will harm them as a source of news for years to come.

It will be forgotten by next week.

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This post has been deleted.

pilly

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Apologies if I picked you up wrong, I felt your reply to Edward was a little hostile that's all.

I do understand why people are on the fence about repealing the 8th though, if they're anti-abortion or even anti abortion after a certain gestation period then they have qualms.

Water John

It's in the interest of some anti abortion people and groups to conflagrate, repealing the 8th with allowing easy abortion. They believe the best way of preventing abortion, esp in this country, is by defeating the Referendum.
They are all aware of the faults in the 8th, but for them its worth saving, to prevent the Oireachtas from legislating. You will note, some posters here don't want the Oireachtas to have this power. This was the original purpose of the 8th.
When I was differentiating the two issues early in the thread, I was attacked.

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This post has been deleted.

pleas advice

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It will be forgotten by next week.

its forgotten already by most on this thread, ...

Flower124

judeboy101 wrote: »

Barbie! wrote: »

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

Do all women do that now? I've never done any of the three. Funny that.
Aren't we of only 2-3 countries in the whole of Europe that don't allow abortion? I think we are starting to look to other countries that we are in the dark ages.

Flower124

judeboy101 wrote: »

Barbie! wrote: »

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

Do all women do that now? I've never done any of the three. Funny that.
Aren't we of only 2-3 countries in the whole of Europe that don't allow abortion? I think we are starting to look to other countries that we are in the dark ages.

Flower124

erica74 wrote: »

I can't remember if I've contributed to this thread already, I think I may have at different stages.
The conversation about the 8th is everywhere, it's hard to escape it, whether you want to or not.

Throughout my life, I have often thought of how the 8th could have impacted me. My brother sexually abused me for years when I was a child. I often think about if I had ended up pregnant as a result of the abuse. The resulting baby would have been a baby born from incest with who knows what sort of severe health problems and I would have been a seriously damaged person as a result, I am damaged enough as is.

When I think of the 8th, I think of other young girls, young women and women in general who are being abused, by a partner or a family member and the impact the 8th (as it is) may have on them.

I fully support abortion, abortions for every woman who wants one, no matter what the reason. My experience is just one of a thousand reasons why a woman might seek an abortion.
I think back to being 10 years old and not understanding a fucking thing about my life and I am scared for myself. It's a terrifying thought. What if.

well said Erica. The biggest problem in this country is sex abuse. Ireland has a horrendous history of sex abuse. Women who were raped in the past were thrown into magdalene laundries. Ireland does not have a good international reputation when it comes to women's rights.

kylith

judeboy101 wrote: »

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

If a woman chooses to be circumcised, chooses to join the world's oldest profession, or chooses to become a surrogate for a childless couple then what harm does that do to anyone?

Flower124

I say this, no joke. 
I remember thinking 'life is absolute hell'. I was also like Erika sexually abused as a child and an adult. I remember constantly thinking 'life is hell'. It was only when I left Ireland I realised I didnt have to be abused, and shame shame on Ireland for letting sexual abuse of women go on for so long. I can never get my childhood back.

Flower124

kylith wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

If a woman chooses to be circumcised, chooses to join the world's oldest profession, or chooses to become a surrogate for a childless couple then what harm does that do to anyone?

I have yet to see any story anywhere of a woman choosing to be circumcised. Most stories involve the female child being held down and cut with an unsanitized razor, so I am not sure where this is comig from

kylith

Flower124 wrote: »

I have yet to see any story anywhere of a woman choosing to be circumcised. Most stories involve the female child being held down and cut with an unsanitized razor, so I am not sure where this is comig from

Barbie said:

...I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Whereupon Judeboy brought up FGM.

As I said, if a woman chooses to do it, then that is her choice. The issue with FGM now is that the woman whose body it is does not have a choice. But if she had the choice and she chose to do it, then that is her business and no-one else's.

Mr. CooL ICE

Lads, that's a comment that was posted almost a year ago. You're probably not going to get a response there

January

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

Oldtree

January wrote: »

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

How?

posturingpat

January wrote: »

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

Great to see it.

eviltwin

posturingpat wrote: »

Great to see it.

What's great about shutting down discussion? No matter what your personal views people should be able to meet.

Anyway it wasnt very successful, the meeting is still going ahead just in a different venue.

January

Oldtree wrote: »

January wrote: »

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

How?

By leaving one star reviews on Facebook stating they'd never visit the restaurant again because they were holding a pro choice event and phoning the restaurant to say they'd boycott them if it went ahead. Similar to what happened with Douglas and kaldi in Ashtown who cancelled and captain Americas but they went ahead with the meeting anyway.

posturingpat

eviltwin wrote: »

What's great about shutting down discussion? No matter what your personal views people should be able to meet.

Anyway it wasnt very successful, the meeting is still going ahead just in a different venue.

Meetings are no craic, should just be slanging matches on the street. "You're a murderer" and "you hate women you bible bashing freak" are what it's all about.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Brought some refreshments to the repeal people in Cork city centre there, very busy stall, an old lady was trying to give them money but they couldn't take cash donations and were giving her the info to donate online, her grandson was with her and said he'd show her how to do it, they both toddled off with their badges nice little intergenerational moment.

King of Kings

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

600,000 people voted against the right to travel back then, but I have never heard anyone ever say that they were one of them.

Very shy crew.

I'm pro life and I voted for that referendum.
I can't control what others do abroad much as I mighnt like it.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Does it come up often in conversation. I don't know how a single person voted in that referendum.

I did - like most referendums (or is it referenda??) - after the hand-wringing and/or excessive jubilation most rational people get on with their lives.

pilly wrote: »

I know pro-life people who grit their teeth every time Iona is mentioned because they know that those sort of people do no good for the pro-life side.

.

I'm pro life and I'm one of those people. I like David Quinn as a speaker in that he speaks well but Iona's arguments are often counter productive. Ronan Mullen is a really smart guy with a good command of language but wasted on the shote Iona come out with sadly , of which he is a disciple.

I think also the media is quite biased in a liberal way and certainly pro-choice, so they love going to Iona for comment cos it alienates people from Iona and my association the pro life view. Iona are too thick to notice this and can't pass a microphone.
.