The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Nettle Soup

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'm willing to help crowd fund a billboard campaign calling for people to vote to stop women having to travel to the uk

"stop shoving the problem under the carpet"
5000 women have to travel abroad for proper health care

I often wonder how pro-8th people would react if their daughter came home after going for an abortion in the UK on their own.

L.Jenkins

Think this thread or similar needs a poll.

Belfast

volchitsa wrote: »

Not easy, no, but surely if people are taking their children abroad to murder them we shoudo make an effort? Instead we actually changed the constitution to make it legal for them to do so,because the AG found that he could, and therefore had to, injunct C to stop her having an abortion abroad.

So when it comes to cold facts, it doesnt seem like people really think it's anything like killing babies.


I can't say for the Dublin bombings, though it may be something of a circular argument anyway, given the constitution, but it isnt true for the Omagh bombings, and it's very dishonest of you to present a report about an application for the unborn twins to be counted among the victims when that application was refused and their older sister, Maura, is officially the youngest victim at 18 months.

I have a family member who died in the Omagh bombing, so I very much dislike people lying about it to further their own agenda.

I object to you saying i Lied. I have not lied. I mention the twins as an example of destruction of unborn life before birth that was not abortion.
My point was the protection of the uborn was not just about abortion.

And I made no mention of killing babies.

As far as I know those involved in the Omagh bombing could be prosecuted in the republic of Ireland for the deaths of the twins.

AnneFrank

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

Water John

Edward, you are right. They will keep refreshing the images and campaign. We become immune to a poster after a few days, so you need to keep changing it.

January

Nettle Soup wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'm willing to help crowd fund a billboard campaign calling for people to vote to stop women having to travel to the uk

"stop shoving the problem under the carpet"
5000 women have to travel abroad for proper health care

I often wonder how pro-8th people would react if their daughter came home after going for an abortion in the UK on their own.

this is how except they actually brought her

One eyed Jack

My apologies that I never saw this post until tonight!

Well I would never tell a woman how to feel about an experience that is uniquely hers, like a miscarriage. Seems you have already decided how women have to feel about a miscarriage.

The rest of your post is very childish.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What does or doesn't constitute a baby isn't defined by science, it's defined by social norms and cultural values.





Have you ever thought to try that perspective on anyone who has lost a baby? I'm guessing telling them that they lose about 40 million skin cells a day isn't likely going to be of much comfort either. Don't be surprised if they ask you what's wrong with you. They're not being rude, they're genuinely curious.





Painting yourself into a rather awkward corner there.





If your only criteria is sentience, then it's understandable you would see no value in that which isn't sentient. However sentience isn't and has never been the determining criteria in determining to whom we assign human rights. Clue is in the 'human' bit, and it is that upon which value is predicated.

Sentient rights are an entirely different philosophical argument.

eviltwin

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

Why, what's the point? But if it helps I had a baby at 19 as a single, homeless, jobless and broke student. I had an abortion at 31, married, home owning parent. Both decisions were exactly right at those times so don't try and condescend that women who are forced to carry pregnancies they don't want will thank you for it when they are forced to give birth.

Annasopra

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

Do you not think they will put the 12 week wording into the referendum rather than give themselves the power/problem of legislating ?
A lot of TD's don't want to enact the legislation if repeal is passed.

Also, giving the power to the Dail may put off potential repeal voters who are worried about it being pushed upwards over time.

No. They wont put 12 weeks into the constitution. The citizens assembly and oireachtas committee voted against such an idea.

Annasopra

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

You want to hear from people who made choices and decisions but only certain chouces and decisions then.

Bannasidhe

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

Equally, we should allow the women who were not given the option but had to have a child, dropped out of college, ended up on lone parents, had to listen to comments about 'getting a free house'/'dole scroungers', felt isolated and abandoned, struggled and felt their own future had been stolen from them.

Because the reality is that not every woman is awash in maternal love which fills them with #soblessed. Some women resent their children because they are the living embodiment of all that was lost.

Women who have had abortions are afraid of speaking because they fear the (inevitable) judgement, however, I put it to you that the judgement heaped on women who resent their children is even worse.

NuMarvel

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

Are you hoping to start a campaign to repeal the 13th amendment?

kylith

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

So, you want to hear about how wonderful not having an abortion was, from women who never wanted to have an abortion in the first place?

What about testimonials from women how were pressured into not having an abortion and how that has impacted on their lives and prospects?

Here’s the thing: you could be marched into an abortion clinic at gunpoint but the second you walk into the procedure room and tell the doctor that you don’t want a termination they will not perform a termination on you. The decision to proceed is 100% with the woman.

Edward M

kylith wrote: »

So, you want to hear about how wonderful not having an abortion was, from women who never wanted to have an abortion in the first place?

What about testimonials from women how were pressured into not having an abortion and how that has impacted on their lives and prospects?

Here’s the thing: you could be marched into an abortion clinic at gunpoint but the second you walk into the procedure room and tell the doctor that you don’t want a termination they will not perform a termination on you. The decision to proceed is 100% with the woman.

So basically you are saying no woman can be forced in to having an abortion?

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

So basically you are saying no woman can be forced in to having an abortion?

I'm sure that given enough force that anybody could be physically coerced into doing something they don't want to do. But it would require either the cooperation of the doctor or the doctor not to be aware. Given any consultation would involve just the patient and the doctor then the patient i think it is unlikely that they wouldn't spot that the woman isnt actually keen herself on the abortion. Or perhaps she has been so terrified by threats that she goes along with it. None of this a good reason for not allowing abortion. So what is your point?

kylith

Edward M wrote: »

So basically you are saying no woman can be forced in to having an abortion?

She can be pressured, yes, but if she says to the doctor ‘I don’t want to do this’ they won’t perform the procedure, the same as any other elective procedure.

It may be the case that she is threatened by family or partner, but the final yes or no is hers. And in this day and age developed countries have enough social supports that withdrawal of family support isn’t a ticket to a workhouse any more.

Can you imagine the uproar if it was ever discovered that a doctor performed an abortion on a woman who had told him that she didn’t want it?

Hooks Golf Handicap

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Think this thread or similar needs a poll.

Asked for one yesterday but nothing yet, perhaps you could put up the Bat signal in the Mod cave

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106145002&postcount=7036

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm sure that given enough force that anybody could be physically coerced into doing something they don't want to do. But it would require either the cooperation of the doctor or the doctor not to be aware. Given any consultation would involve just the patient and the doctor then the patient i think it is unlikely that they wouldn't spot that the woman isnt actually keen herself on the abortion. Or perhaps she has been so terrified by threats that she goes along with it. None of this a good reason for not allowing abortion. So what is your point?

My point is why would a woman want an abortion if she didn't feel pressured in to it?
I have read with interest on several threads here of women who had abortions because of some circumstance or other that made them come to their decision.
I have yet to hear one that had an abortion for no good reason or form of pressure of some sort.

The reason a lot of people don't want abortion on demand is because they feel that people, yes women, will just abort without any real need for it.
I say that as the way people might well look at it, its not a good argument for repeal.
The best argument for repeal are the stories of women who do feel pressurised and forced, by their own circumstances to have no other option but abort.

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eviltwin

Edward M wrote: »

My point is why would a woman want an abortion if she didn't feel pressured in to it?
I have read with interest on several threads here of women who had abortions because of some circumstance or other that made them come to their decision.
I have yet to hear one that had an abortion for no good reason or form of pressure of some sort.

The reason a lot of people don't want abortion on demand is because they feel that people, yes women, will just abort without any real need for it.
I say that as the way people might well look at it, its not a good argument for repeal.
The best argument for repeal are the stories of women who do feel pressurised and forced, by their own circumstances to have no other option but abort.

Some women have abortions because they don't want to be pregnant but they face massive judgement so aren't very vocal. But I don't buy this thing that women have abortions just because they can. Whatever your feelings about the pregnancy, physically a medical abortion is a painful and messy thing to go through, it's not just popping into your GP to take some tablets, it's the waiting for the tablets to work and the physical process that entails. It's not pleasant.

B0jangles

Edward M wrote: »

My point is why would a woman want an abortion if she didn't feel pressured in to it?
I have read with interest on several threads here of women who had abortions because of some circumstance or other that made them come to their decision.
I have yet to hear one that had an abortion for no good reason or form of pressure of some sort.

The reason a lot of people don't want abortion on demand is because they feel that people, yes women, will just abort without any real need for it.
I say that as the way people might well look at it, its not a good argument for repeal.
The best argument for repeal are the stories of women who do feel pressurised and forced, by their own circumstances to have no other option but abort.

Seriously?

Because she doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby? Lots of women have absolutely no interest in motherhood, and it does no-one any good to force them to beome parents anyway - least of all their children.

Edward M

....... wrote: »

No one can judge the need for an abortion except the woman who is pregnant.



No - the best argument for repeal is that the 8th Amendment actually negatively affects womens healthcare in Ireland - for both wanted and unwanted pregnancies - and that it has caused a culture of export or criminality for women who want access to basic medical care.

Everyone gets basic medical care.
The best reason for repeal are cases of women who are refused abortions and cant get the best medical care.
If someone presents with complications after an abortion, be it pill or surgical abroad, will get the care required at that time, if they present while pregnant they won't necessarily get the best.

Billy86

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

Would you also be interested in hearing from the thousands of women who have had kids because abortion wasn't available to them or family members pressured them into not getting an abortion, whose lives and whose children's lives have fallen apart because of it, often leading the child to an eventual life of crime on top of placing significant strains on public services from the sheer amount of attention they require?

blanch152

Edward M wrote: »

My point is why would a woman want an abortion if she didn't feel pressured in to it?

Excuse me for saying this but your post displays a breathtaking level of ignorance about how and why women want and have abortions, especially as you claim to be informed on the subject.

Edward M wrote: »

I have read with interest on several threads here of women who had abortions because of some circumstance or other that made them come to their decision.
I have yet to hear one that had an abortion for no good reason or form of pressure of some sort.

The reason a lot of people don't want abortion on demand is because they feel that people, yes women, will just abort without any real need for it.
I say that as the way people might well look at it, its not a good argument for repeal.
The best argument for repeal are the stories of women who do feel pressurised and forced, by their own circumstances to have no other option but abort.

Your problem is that you are viewing woman's decisions from your own moral viewpoint. It seems that you believe that all other things being equal, every woman who becomes pregnant would want to have a baby.

The existence of contraception puts the lie to this. No form of contraception is 100% effective. Women take contraceptives or ask their mate to do so because they don't want to become pregnant. If and when the contraception fails, that wish not to become pregnant may or may not change. If it doesn't change, they will want an abortion because they don't want to become pregnant.

There is no forcing or pressurising in that decision that many women make by themselves.

Now, that only looks at women in normal functioning relationships where contraception fails and they don't want to be pregnant. Think of the circumstances whereby they were raped or abused and didn't even want to have sex. Again, they are not forced or pressurised, it is their own free choice.

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kylith

Can there be pressures in a woman’s life, e.g. financial which would influence her to have an abortion? Yes.

Is this the same as her being ‘pressured’ into having an abortion? No.

Edward M

Ok, some are missing my point.
My point is that repeal of the eighth is the most important issue here now IMO.
There are, like it or not, a big percentage of voters against abortion on demand but in favour of repeal.
You have to be careful how the case for abortion is handled or you may cause some of those in favour of repeal back over the line by saying that abortion should be available like the flu jab or antibiotic.
I presume the pro choice campaign itself will be careful in how they handle it.
The pro life side are going to use every trick and heart tugging photo available to them to try to dissuade these pro repeal but anti abortion on demand voter back over that line.

Edward M

blanch152 wrote: »

Excuse me for saying this but your post displays a breathtaking level of ignorance about how and why women want and have abortions, especially as you claim to be informed on the subject.




Your problem is that you are viewing woman's decisions from your own moral viewpoint. It seems that you believe that all other things being equal, every woman who becomes pregnant would want to have a baby.

Firstly, I claim to be informed, What does that mean?
Secondly I don't view anyone's decisions from my moral standpoint, I made that clear ages ago.
I view my decisions from my moral standpoint, what others do with theirs is up to them.
If it were a vote for abortion on demand alone I would vote against it, but its not, its for repeal of the eighth and if that's passed then the abortion on demand will follow I expect, but that won't stop me voting for repeal, as I feel the eighth is horrendous on its own too.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

More than half the posters for a repeal event featuring Ruth Coppinger in Cork this evening torn down, some then put through a pro-choice councillor's letterbox. That's terrible intimidating behaviour, I would again be interested to hear from people who've been so very and vocally appalled by things like teenagers taking selfies in front of statues that they're compelled to vote against repeal, as to how something like that might influence them?

pilly

Edward M wrote: »

Everyone gets basic medical care.
The best reason for repeal are cases of women who are refused abortions and cant get the best medical care.
If someone presents with complications after an abortion, be it pill or surgical abroad, will get the care required at that time, if they present while pregnant they won't necessarily get the best.

I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make?

amdublin

I don't get this whole abortion on demand thing. Isn't abortion on request more of an accurate description?

And aren't women entitled to request an abortion for a whole host of reasons?

For example
* Who am I to dictate to a woman who wants an abortion for reasons of ffa - nope, No abortion for you on Irish soil, But here is some information on doing it in the UK.
* Who am I to dictate to a woman who wants an abortion because their contraceptive failed and they don't want to be pregnant - nope, No abortion for you on Irish soil, But here is some information on doing it in the UK.
* Who am I to dictate to a woman who got pregnant after being raped - nope, No abortion for you on Irish soil, But here is some information on doing it in the UK.
*Who am I to dictate to a man and a woman who got drunk, had a one night stand with no contraceptive - nope, No abortion for you on Irish soil, But here is some information on doing it in the UK.

Who am I to dictate to anyone that as a result of their bedroom activities they must carry and deliver a baby, or else get out of the country and have an abortion elsewhere.

(Irish) Abortions occur every single day. Just not in Ireland.
It's a a fekked up situation.
We need to mind our own business and leave people to their own business and decisions.

If someone wants to have an abortion it's a private matter for themselves to decide.

pilly

Edward M wrote: »

Ok, some are missing my point.
My point is that repeal of the eighth is the most important issue here now IMO.
There are, like it or not, a big percentage of voters against abortion on demand but in favour of repeal.
You have to be careful how the case for abortion is handled or you may cause some of those in favour of repeal back over the line by saying that abortion should be available like the flu jab or antibiotic.
I presume the pro choice campaign itself will be careful in how they handle it.
The pro life side are going to use every trick and heart tugging photo available to them to try to dissuade these pro repeal but anti abortion on demand voter back over that line.

Okay, now I better understand your point but the facts of the matter are Edward that if the 8th is repealed the option that's most likely is abortion on request up to 12 weeks because both the Citizen Assembly and the Oireachtas decided that this is the only practical way to put it in place.

The more complicated it is made the more likely that women will still have to travel, therefore defeating the purpose of repealing the eighth in the first place.

Will this mean some women having abortions for reasons that you don't approve of? Yes. But that's the way it's going to be.

There is no way of softening this by saying "oh we're only going let the women we approve of have abortions", it doesn't work that way.

blanch152

Edward M wrote: »

Ok, some are missing my point.
My point is that repeal of the eighth is the most important issue here now IMO.
There are, like it or not, a big percentage of voters against abortion on demand but in favour of repeal.
You have to be careful how the case for abortion is handled or you may cause some of those in favour of repeal back over the line by saying that abortion should be available like the flu jab or antibiotic.
I presume the pro choice campaign itself will be careful in how they handle it.
The pro life side are going to use every trick and heart tugging photo available to them to try to dissuade these pro repeal but anti abortion on demand voter back over that line.

Given that there is an abortion pill available, which can be viewed merely as an extension of contraception or the morning after pill, what restrictions should be placed on the use of the abortion pill? Like any medical treatment, should it require the approval of a GP following a consultation with the person affected?

amdublin

Would it be so bad if abortion was available like the flu jab or antibiotic?

Actually let me rephrase that. Why can't we have abortion available like the flu jab or antibi9tic?
If someone needs an abortion why do we insist on making it so fekking hard for them?? Do we not trust that they have thought about it long and hard?

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PopePalpatine

amdublin wrote: »

I don't get this whole abortion on demand thing. Isn't abortion on request more of an accurate description?

Yes, but "abortion-on-request" doesn't paint the pregnant woman as a spoilt brat.

amdublin

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Yes, but "abortion-on-request" doesn't paint the pregnant woman as a spoilt brat.

Yes I guess that. Abortion on demand paints the crazy picture of someone using abortion as a contraceptive?

Anyone who has ever suffered a miscarriage or underwent an abortion (also suffered) will tell you it's not an easy experience - aside from the emotional stuff, physically it is pain - think horrendous stomach cramps I.e. labour contractions.

There is no sane wOman out there who would choose to use abortion as an abortion method. If there is one woman im.a million zillion out there doing that she needs help and support in another way altogether.

amdublin

Another opinion of mine is that having abortion here in Ireland would actually reduce the number of abortions.

At the moment there is in some way "no going back". The appointment is made, the flights are paid for.

If you have an appointment here with less expense you can take the time to think about it more. You don't HAVE to take that flight on that one day because you can only get that time off etc.
Not having to travel takes some pressure away from you and you can take a little more time to think it all through. When you have to travel it's more like it's a done deal, the flights are booked, the dye is cast.

pleas advice

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Yes, but "abortion-on-request" doesn't paint the pregnant woman as a spoilt brat.

Is there a need for that? Really?

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

Is there a need for that? Really?

What are your thoughts on it?

Do you agree or disagree with the statement? And why or why not?

pleas advice

Well, if you're saying 'abortion on demand' is only used to portray women as spoiled brats... Yes I disagree with that.
Abortion on demand is what it is, theres no judgement in that statement.

eviltwin

pleas advice wrote: »

Well, if you're saying 'abortion on demand' is only used to portray women as spoiled brats... Yes I disagree with that.
Abortion on demand is what it is, theres no judgement in that statement.

There is plenty of judgement from the pro life groups, just take a look at Facebook

sunshine and showers

amdublin wrote: »

Another opinion of mine is that having abortion here in Ireland would actually reduce the number of abortions.

At the moment there is in some way "no going back". The appointment is made, the flights are paid for.

If you have an appointment here with less expense you can take the time to think about it more. You don't HAVE to take that flight on that one day because you can only get that time off etc.
Not having to travel takes some pressure away from you and you can take a little more time to think it all through. When you have to travel it's more like it's a done deal, the flights are booked, the dye is cast.

I've heard the head of BPAS say this exact thing about Irish women who go to the UK for abortions. They feel they have to go through with it after all the effort and expense.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

pleas advice wrote: »

Well, if you're saying 'abortion on demand' is only used to portray women as spoiled brats... Yes I disagree with that.
Abortion on demand is what it is, theres no judgement in that statement.

So why not use the term abortion on request, that would be the most neutral and accurate phrasing. It's loaded language, which the pro-life movement have been excellent at ever since they named themselves that.

PopePalpatine

Just out of curiosity, I did a DuckDuckGo (because this isn't something I want on my Google search history, or influenced by it) search for "abortion on demand" and "abortion on request".

For "abortion on demand", I got two Breitbart sharticles in the top 12, along with 6 other pro-life opinion pieces and blogs. "Abortion on request" only returned 1 pro-life opinion piece in the top 12, and also included reports/papers from The Lancet and the UN's Department of Economic & Social Affairs.

Zubeneschamali

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, I did a DuckDuckGo (because this isn't something I want on my Google search history, or influenced by it) search for "abortion on demand" and "abortion on request".

Per Google Ngram, Abortion on demand is used about 8 times as often.

pleas advice

Why are pro life people pro life, in your view? Are they all women-hating slut-shamers, or... What?

Water John

They coopted the term to themselves. Your simply wanting us all to run down, rabbit holes, with this line of discussion.
It's called baiting.

pleas advice

No, not at all. I would like you to ask yourself, "why are these people 'pro-life' ? Can I maybe try to see their point of view, see where they're coming from?"