The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RDM_83 again

eviltwin wrote: »

Why? Are you saying women are idiots who rush into a decision the minute they pee on the stick? Do you not think we are capable of deciding for ourselves what we need without having to be treated like dopes? Are we going to offer counselling to every pregnant woman who decides to go ahead with the pregnancy or is it just the ones who want abortion who are incapable of making a decision?

Counselling already exists for crisis pregnancies. It's a good idea to expand it nationwide but make it compulsory?

I'm all for talking to women privately to make sure they aren't being coerced but making every woman wait is just unnecessary. You can be sure if she's choosing abortion it's because she wants an abortion.

That's some serious putting words into my mouth there, I don't think every man is the same and I don't think every woman is either we are all a spectrum.

Apart from costs why not?if everybody is so sure it's the right decision one session with a counselor and a five (or similar) day wait won't make any difference. Similar laws exist in liberal western European democracies (Germany). It's a decent compromise to a antagonistic issue.

I personally agree with the idea of a compulsory counseling session for every pregnancy continued or not, it may not make a difference to many people but it could help some who aren't aware of post-pregnancy depression and so on.

Ps in terms of cost it's all debatable anyway due to future tax impacts etc

RDM_83 again

eviltwin wrote: »

In my experience it is. Granted those pages tend to attract a certain mindset and I wouldn't say all those in favour of the 8th share those views but these are the groups setting the tone of the Save campaign. There is an overwhelming sense that it's a certain type of woman who looks for an abortion and that if they have access to abortion they will be shagging away and it's that freedom they seem to resent, not the loss of what they consider a life.

And I could share that video of the angry afro-Irish militant feminist speaking at one of the repeal marches and the fact the audience isn't standing around booing her despite her saying awful stuff. That wouldn't be an honest representation of most Repeal though and in the same way some Facebook pages don't necessarily set the tone of the Pro-life side

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

I'd like to hear from the thousands of women who were pressurised into having an abortion at a very vulnerable time in their life,and decided to keep their child,and are now a mother to an amazing child with a great future ahead.

Unfortunately for your leaning the stories of women who were forced to carry pregnancies outweigh the ones who were forced to abort.

RDM_83 again

RDM_83 again wrote: »

And I could share that video of the angry afro-Irish militant feminist speaking at one of the repeal marches and the fact the audience isn't standing around booing her despite her saying awful stuff. That wouldn't be an honest representation of most Repeal though and in the same way some Facebook pages don't necessarily set the tone of the Pro-life side

Dont be silly. I wouldn't want to say you're stupid, but if you think all "Repeal" people are that woman then you need to wake up.

I'm sure as a pro lifer you are ashamed at some of the things "your" side do. Likewise. We're not all the same.

RDM_83 again

Deleted User wrote: »

Dont be silly. I wouldn't want to say you're stupid, but if you think all "Repeal" people are that woman then you need to wake up.

I'm sure as a pro lifer you are ashamed at some of the things "your" side do. Likewise. We're not all the same.

That's my whole point, that woman doesn't represents one side and some Facebook page doesn't represent the other.

I want a German legislation type system which I think most preserve the 8th disagree with completely but which IMO would be a good fit for Ireland.

Captain Obvious

January wrote: »

Did I mention the cost of the abortion? I mentioned the cost of flights and accommodation which are extra to the cost of the abortion and have to be paid up front and cannot be refunded.

But yes I am assuming abortion will be free or very cheap when it becomes available here. Maternity care is free for all pregnant people in this country. Abortion falls under maternity care. I envision that the pill will be covered under the GMS and DPS schemes and that surgical abortions will be covered under public care as a day procedure which even if its not free under maternity care will only cost 80 euro bed charge.

If you're talking about financial disinsentives then the cost of abortion is very relevant. If the cost of an abortion in Ireland is more than the cost of travelling to the UK and having one then changing the 8th won't really affect your example. And the assumption that an abortion will only be an €80 bed charge is a pretty big one. It's an elective procedure in most cases. I can't see why it would be covered by the state unless medically necessary and it remains to be seen how insurance companies will cover it.

Aside form that, as you can see from the example given after you a man looking for a procedure that was completely legal and available in Ireland faced the exact same dilemma when he went over. So it's nothing really to do with the 8th.

Edward M

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I do. Some so called pro lifers are definitely mysoginists.

Probably, some pro choice people probably are too.
The debate doesn't centre on that though.

NuMarvel

Edward M wrote: »

Probably, some pro choice people probably are too.
The debate doesn't centre on that though.

No reason it should either.

Andrew Beef

I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

NuMarvel

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

In that case, you support repeal. Because whatever discussion may be had about the circumstances you think women should be able to access abortion, nothing can change without repealing the 8th first.

Andrew Beef

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

And what has the unborn child in a rape case done, in your opinion, not to have a right to life?

Andrew Beef

bubblypop wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I cannot support abortion except in very limited circumstances (e.g. medical Savita type cases and rape/incest cases).

I do not believe that a woman’s right to choose trumps an unborn child’s right to life.

And what has the unborn child in a rape case done, in your opinion, not to have a right to life?

Nothing, but the woman has not chosen to be impregnated so the analysis changes.

chalkitdown1

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Nothing, but the woman has not chosen to be impregnated so the analysis changes.

And if a couple's contraception fails? She hasnt chosen to be impregnated there either, right?

Andrew Beef

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Nothing, but the woman has not chosen to be impregnated so the analysis changes.

And if a couple's contraception fails? She hasnt chosen to be impregnated there either, right?

Tough; no abortion.

amdublin

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Yes abortion. Just in England. At the moment.

Zubeneschamali

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Your going to have to repeal the 13th amendment to make that law.

kylith

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Because she enjoyed the sex and therefore deserves the ‘punishment’ of a baby?

Regardless, Savita died because the 8th was in place. If you think women in her position should have the option of termination then you must vote to repeal the 8th.

If it leads to abortion in Ireland, well, those abortions would have happened anyway, just in England.

January

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Except women are already having abortions in this very country just illegally. You support unsafe abortion in that case.

Captain Obvious

January wrote: »

Except women are already having abortions in this very country just illegally. You support unsafe abortion in that case.

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

Andrew Beef

Captain Obvious wrote: »

January wrote: »

Except women are already having abortions in this very country just illegally. You support unsafe abortion in that case.

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

Agreed. If the UK was jumping off a cliff (which it is!), does that mean we should too?

_Dara_

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

Mature.

The calibre of people allowed to vote in this referendum, folks.

AnneFrank

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

You’ve posted this twice but still haven’t stated your reasons for voting no?

NuMarvel

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

It is if the people who object to the illegal act being made legal have no interest in actually enforcing the current law. I've lost count of the number of times anti-repealers have said they don't want to criminalise women who have abortions, and yet that's exactly what our abortion law does and has always done.

If the self appointed defenders of the unborn can't find it in themselves to support the current laws, why should anyone else?

NuMarvel

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

There are over 7200 posts across 485 pages... no one is being silenced.

Captain Obvious

NuMarvel wrote: »

It is if the people who object to the illegal act being made legal have no interest in actually enforcing the current law. I've lost count of the number of times anti-repealers have said they don't want to criminalise women who have abortions, and yet that's exactly what our abortion law does and has always done.

If the self appointed defenders of the unborn can't find it in themselves to support the current laws, why should anyone else?

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. You think people against abortion aren't really serious unless they want to make the person who has one a criminal?

Achasanai

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Not just on the one side, though, really?

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Tough; no abortion.

AnneFrank wrote: »

Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Going by the first part of your post, I'm guessing there wasn't a huge amount of soul-searching, but a hell of a lot of pretense.

pitifulgod

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Nobody was silenced during same sex marriage referendum. The people who say they were silenced, invariably have columns in newspapers on a weekly basis... People getting banned in threads was because of outrageous and offensive statements..

NuMarvel

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. You think people against abortion aren't really serious unless they want to make the person who has one a criminal?

I'm saying what's the point in having a law that nobody, be they repeal or anti-repeal, pro life or pro choice, wants to enforce.

Captain Obvious

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm saying what's the point in having a law that nobody, be they repeal or anti-repeal, pro life or pro choice, wants to enforce.

There is none. But making a woman a criminal simply for obtaining an abortion is not the only way to enforce the general rule. You can instead punish those who provide them.

_Dara_

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

I heard all sides of the debate in the lead up to the marriage equality referendum, both here and on current affairs shows and in newspapers. Where was this silencing occurring?

AnneFrank

_Dara_ wrote: »

I heard all sides of the debate in the lead up to the marriage equality referendum, both here and on current affairs shows and in newspapers. Where was this silencing occurring?

I felt a lot of older people who had differing views were labelled homophobes,and then just stopped talking out of fear of it, I've seen parallels with this debate too and it's a far from black or white answer

2wsxcde3

A baby that is aborted as a result of an abortion pill has hands, legs, a head and a beating heart. Where does the woman put this little baby after the abortion has taken place in her home?

NuMarvel

Captain Obvious wrote: »

There is none. But making a woman a criminal simply for obtaining an abortion is not the only way to enforce the general rule. You can instead punish those who provide them.

But at the moment, the law doesn't distinguish between the provider and the woman. It can't distinguish between them without at least changing if not outright removing the 8th.

And even if it did, in reality it just means an increasing number of women will continue to import pills. And while decriminalising the woman means she'd be more likely to seek medical attention if something goes wrong, I'd prefer if she were able to have medical guidance from the start of the process.

volchitsa

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

A baby that is aborted as a result of an abortion pill has hands, legs, a head and a beating heart. Where does the woman put this little baby after the abortion has taken place in her home?

What do you think happens most miscarriages at the same stage? Most of them go down the toilet. Is it okay when it's a miscarriage but not when it's an abortion?

NuMarvel

AnneFrank wrote: »

I felt a lot of older people who had differing views were labelled homophobes,and then just stopped talking out of fear of it, I've seen parallels with this debate too and it's a far from black or white answer

As someone who did canvassing for the marriage equality referendum, I know firsthand that people who opposed it weren't silent or silenced. The first No voter I met told me "Two men together was wrong and a danger to children".

And as an aside, most of the older people I met were in favour of it. Some of them enthusiastically so. One of them tried to set me up with his grandson!!

2wsxcde3

volchitsa wrote: »

What do you think happens most miscarriages at the same stage? Most of them go down the toilet. Is it okay when it's a miscarriage but not when it's an abortion?

Alot of people bury the miscarried baby in their family plot and give them a name which is placed on the headstone.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Alot of people bury the miscarried baby in their family plot and give them a name which is placed on the headstone.

You asked this the other day and were given an answer.
What you are showing in your picture is a memorial bauble, probably for a Christmas tree. It isn’t a headstone.

Pre 12 weeks the same would happen as what would happen if a woman miscarried at home, it would go down the toilet unless she wanted to save the clots (not sure how she’d be able to do that, but let’s say she wanted to) which of course she could bury if she so wished.
I have certainly never heard of a funeral or a burial plot for a pregnancy lost pre 12 weeks.

Pre 12 weeks most women haven’t even announced their pregnancy due to the fact that at that gestation 1 in 3 of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Most don’t announce until after the12 week scan.

RobertKK

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's not a very strong argument that we should allow something simply because it is being done illegally by some people.

Doing something illegal, doesn't this come under as being a choice?

2wsxcde3

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Pre 12 weeks the same would happen as what would happen if a woman miscarried at home, it would go down the toilet unless she wanted to save the clots (not sure how she’d be able to do that, but let’s say she wanted to) which of course she could bury if she so wished.
I have certainly never heard of a funeral or a burial plot for a pregnancy lost pre 12 weeks.

The baby is buried in the family plot, often without being registered.

And its not a "clot". I came across this story online:

Although the clinic was wonderful, they didn't warn me about the next part. As the tissue had landed on a towel, I thought the best thing to do would be to tip it down the loo. However, as I lifted the towel up, the 'clot' rolled slightly and there was a perfectly formed yet tiny baby lying there. It was almost as long as my thumb, and was perfect. I was told that up until nine weeks, I would not see anything except maybe a 'grey gestational sac'. This was a complete baby. I could see eyes, feet, arms, and the worst - or most vivid part - was that I could clearly count its fingers. It has perfect little hands. I wrapped it in tissue, cleaned myself up and called my partner, crying lots by now. I told him what I'd seen, and I don't think he believed me, because he looked for himself. Then he broke down with me. The bleeding has slowed down now, the clots I'm passing are a lot smaller but I feel drained. I'm weak and dizzy when I try to stand and the cramps are still pretty painful. We cried ourselves to sleep last night. I'm still numb. While we made our decision for the right reasons, I wish I'd been told what to expect by someone who has been through it. I could never go through something like this again. We both feel guilty. He's scared that this will come between us. I'm scared that he will hate me. And after all this, I have a tiny baby wrapped in tissue and I don't know what to do with it. After all this, there's no way I can flush it down the loo. Keeping it feels strange. So what am I supposed to do with it?
(Source: https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/591/well-its-done-yesterday-i-had-a-medical-abortion- )

Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

Doing something illegal, doesn't this come under as being a choice?

It does(although somewhat cold, want to convict them?) but it also highlights that those who don't have the means to travel are the most affected. Which is a pretty poor reflection on Irish society.

_Dara_

AnneFrank wrote: »

I felt a lot of older people who had differing views were labelled homophobes,and then just stopped talking out of fear of it, I've seen parallels with this debate too and it's a far from black or white answer

The issue is, there was very few reasonings for voting ‘no’ that I heard personally that weren’t in some way homophobic. If it quacks like a duck etc. Factually saying that something homophobic is homophobic =/= silencing. People should have the courage of their convictions. And if others don’t agree, well sin é.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The baby is buried in the family plot, often without being registered.

And its not a "clot". I came across this story online:

Although the clinic was wonderful, they didn't warn me about the next part. As the tissue had landed on a towel, I thought the best thing to do would be to tip it down the loo. However, as I lifted the towel up, the 'clot' rolled slightly and there was a perfectly formed yet tiny baby lying there. It was almost as long as my thumb, and was perfect. I was told that up until nine weeks, I would not see anything except maybe a 'grey gestational sac'. This was a complete baby. I could see eyes, feet, arms, and the worst - or most vivid part - was that I could clearly count its fingers. It has perfect little hands. I wrapped it in tissue, cleaned myself up and called my partner, crying lots by now. I told him what I'd seen, and I don't think he believed me, because he looked for himself. Then he broke down with me. The bleeding has slowed down now, the clots I'm passing are a lot smaller but I feel drained. I'm weak and dizzy when I try to stand and the cramps are still pretty painful. We cried ourselves to sleep last night. I'm still numb. While we made our decision for the right reasons, I wish I'd been told what to expect by someone who has been through it. I could never go through something like this again. We both feel guilty. He's scared that this will come between us. I'm scared that he will hate me. And after all this, I have a tiny baby wrapped in tissue and I don't know what to do with it. After all this, there's no way I can flush it down the loo. Keeping it feels strange. So what am I supposed to do with it?
(Source: https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/591/well-its-done-yesterday-i-had-a-medical-abortion- )

Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

Oh please, spare me. I’m giving you facts. This is what happens. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

When women present at hospital with miscarriage symptoms in the early stages of her pregnancy (aka pre 12 weeks), she is scanned to confirm same and sent home to let nature take its course.

There is no labor and delivery.
She has an extremely heavy period and passes clots. Usually down the toilet. I don’t say this to demean what happened - this is just the truth.

I have never ever in my life heard of someone having a funeral for a pre 12 week pregnancy and burying the remains.

Please provide a link to prove same - ‘a woman I know etc’ doesnt cut it.

This also has absolutely no relevance to the thread so I’m baffled as to why you keep asking the same question over and over again.

2wsxcde3

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Oh please, spare me. I’m giving you facts. This is what happens. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

We're talking about dumping a readily identifiable baby into raw sewerage???

Can you not understand how countries who practice FGM for example look at us here in the west and think we are as gone in the head as we like to think they are?

Martina1991

2wsxcde3 wrote:

Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

How was that woman lied to? She and her partner made the decision to have a termination. No one forced them to. She had a CHOICE.

In a medical setting I'm sure couples have the option in Ireland to keep the remains if the choose. But if they don't want to keep it, the products of conception (that's what their called in a hospital) are placed in containers in formaldehyde and disposed of as medical waste. They are not flushed down a toilet.

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The baby is buried in the family plot, often without being registered.

And its not a "clot". I came across this story online:

...

Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

Someone’s lying, but it wasn’t the doctors. At 9 weeks a fetus is an inch long, not as big as a thumb, and if you think that it looks like a perfect little baby then you have either never googled what a 9 week fetus looks like, or you have a disturbed idea of what a human looks like.

People may bury stillborn babies, but I have never heard of anyone holding a funeral for an inch-long fetus or burying it in the family plot, whatever that is.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We're talking about dumping a readily identifiable baby into raw sewerage???

Can you not understand how countries who practice FGM for example look at us here in the west and think we are as gone in the head as we like to think they are?

This is how the world over treats miscarriages, sorry to burst your bubble.
As I previously said, 1 in 3 pregnancies end in miscarriage before week 12.
If we held funerals for each and every lost pregnancy there would be no free land anywhere.

You seem to be really naive on how maternity care works. Maybe instead of posting your hysterical faux outrage on the internet you could start a campaign we could all get behind.
I suggest one to grant babies born pre 24 weeks death certificates.
Currently we don’t recognize babies lost before this point as people which is very upsetting for parents who have lost a child.

I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that bit about FGM, because not only is it irrelevant it’s highly offensive to anyone who has experienced a miscarriage.

2wsxcde3

Martina1991 wrote: »

In a medical setting I'm sure couples have the option in Ireland to keep the remains if the choose. But if they don't want to keep it, the products of conception (that's what their called in a hospital) are placed in containers in formaldehyde and disposed of as medical waste. They are not flushed down a toilet.

And used to heat hospitals.

Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals
(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-uk-hospitals/ )

Sound familiar? The nazis used the corpses of jews they had gassed to heat the houses in the concentration camps.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

And used to heat hospitals.

Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals
(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-uk-hospitals/ )

Sound familiar? The nazis used the corpses of jews they had gassed to heat the houses in the concentration camps.

I don’t think you realize how offensive you are being. This would be very distressing to read for anyone who has suffered a miscarriage.
Shame on you. You don’t have a clue.

2wsxcde3

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think you realize how offensive you are being. This would be very distressing to read for anyone who has suffered a miscarriage.
Shame on you. You don’t have a clue.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but abortion advocates were calling for an "honest and open debate on abortion in this country". I don't think people should call for an honest and open debate and then tell people to shut up about what happens to the bodies of babies that are aborted.