The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

There is no protection now. Irish abortions happen every single day in England.


If Irish abortions were to happen in Ireland....the sky would not fall down. All that would change is the location.


Why can't you give the same protection/rights you want for a foetus to your living sisters, your living wife, your living neighbours. Who are you to dictate that this farce must continue of forcing women who want an abortion to go off on a plane.

Andrew Beef

Quote from amdublin (apologies, I butchered the quote function!):

Please stop.

Stop equating me, a live human woman, to a (less than) 12 week old foetus.

If you think you are equal to that then fine don't have an abortion. Or if you are male than come to a decision in collaboration and agreement with your partner that she won't have abortion.

But just stop telling me what to do.

Who am I to dictate to any woman that in her own personal circumstance she must or must not have the baby. Abortion is a private matter. And reminder, one that happens every day in England - why are you trying to stop it in Ireland? It's like you are trying to punish someone that if they insist on an abortion well they can jump over hurdles for it.

Please stay out of other people's sex lives and the resultant pregnancies. They are not intruding on yours. (ENDQUOTE)

But your right to choose doesn’t trump an unborn child’s right to life.

Fine if you’re willing to carry a crisis pregnancy full-term, but if you wish to go down the road of having an abortion, there’s an onus on society to step in and stop you.

BabysCoffee

pleas advice wrote: »

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

And you have every right to protect your own fetus. No one will take this from you when the 8th is repealed. However butt out of everyone else's womb. It's not your business.

SusieBlue

pleas advice wrote: »

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

Those people can apply their own morals to their own pregnancies. I don’t really care if it doesn’t stand up to them - it’s frankly none of their business.

I am the one taking the risks, it’s my family that will suffer if anything happens to me. I am the one carrying the pregnancy.
So if these people think they have a right to interfere and have an opinion on the contents of my womb - I’d ask them to consider what qualifies them to tell me what is best for me, rather than have ME, the person actually affected, decide on the issue.

SusieBlue

Andrew Beef wrote: »

But your right to choose doesn’t trump an unborn child’s right to life.

Fine if you’re willing to carry a crisis pregnancy full-term, but if you wish to go down the road of having an abortion, there’s an onus on society to step in and stop you.

Society has no business interfering in the reproductive organs of its citizens. We need to trust our women.

Would you be willing to die or have your health significantly compromised for the sake of a 10 week old zygote? Would you say it would be worth it?

Captain Obvious

BabysCoffee wrote: »

The great thing for the so called "pro-lifers" when the 8th is repealed is that not a whole lot will change for them. They won't have an abortion forced on them. That's because of this great thing called CHOICE.

And once again someone who ignores the core issue of the opposite side of the debate.

amdublin

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And once again someone who ignores the core issue of the opposite side of the debate.

Irish abortions happen every day. In England. The debate changes nothing other than the location. It would be great if the other side would remove their noses out of our bedrooms and women's reproductive organs. It is not anyone's place to dictate to another woman what they do or don't do with a 12 week old foetus that is in their body.

eviltwin

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And once again someone who ignores the core issue of the opposite side of the debate.

I think the point she's making is that legal abortion here won't affect the pro life voters, they will be upset by the outcome but that's about it.

It's the women who need abortion, the women in our maternity system who will continue to suffer the consequences

January

amdublin wrote: »

Irish abortions happen every day. In England. The debate changes nothing other than the location. It would be great if the other side would remove their noses out of our bedrooms and women's reproductive organs. It is not anyone's place to dictate to another woman what they do or don't do with a 12 week old foetus that is in their body.

Irish abortions happen every day. In Ireland. Up to 5 people a day take pills here to end their pregnancies.

amdublin

January wrote: »

Irish abortions happen every day. In Ireland. Up to 5 people a day take pills here to end their pregnancies.

Good point


So so unsafe And emotionally horrific.


What will it take? Someone to die after taking one of these tablets to bring on an abortion. alone and scared, bleeding, and afraid to go to a hospital. These pills should only be taken under the auspices of a doctor/proper healthcare.


I love Ireland but my god sometimes it's a bad place/sometimes we put our citizens in such bad place/treat our women awfully.

pleas advice

BabysCoffee wrote: »

And you have every right to protect your own child. No one will take this from you .... However butt out of everyone else's home. It's not your business.

would you feel the same about the above?

eviltwin

amdublin wrote: »

Good point


So so unsafe And emotionally horrific.


What will it take? Someone to die after taking one of these tablets to bring on an abortion. alone and scared, bleeding, and afraid to go to a hospital. These pills should only be taken under the auspices of a doctor/proper healthcare.


I love Ireland but my god sometimes it's a bad place/sometimes we put our citizens in such bad place/treat our women awfully.

Women have died and those pro life folks don't care. It's all about control.

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

would you feel the same about the above?

What in God's earth are you on about.
And I notice you evaded the points made about butting out of women's uteruses.


Are you trying to equate a woman's womb with a house? Women are not houses. Women are not incubators for babies. Womens role on earth is not to grow babies for society.


Abortion is a private matter. Why can't you trust women and stop trying to make their role in society as growing babies.

amdublin

amdublin wrote: »

What in God's earth are you on about.
And I notice you evaded the points made about butting out of women's uteruses.


Are you trying to equate a woman's womb with a house? Women are not houses. Women are not incubators for babies. Womens role on earth is not to grow babies for society.


Abortion is a private matter. Why can't you trust women and stop trying to make their role in society as growing babies.

PS. Some women want to continue their pregnancy. That is so great
Some women can't or don't want to. Their choice.

January

amdublin wrote: »

Good point


So so unsafe And emotionally horrific.


What will it take? Someone to die after taking one of these tablets to bring on an abortion. alone and scared, bleeding, and afraid to go to a hospital. These pills should only be taken under the auspices of a doctor/proper healthcare.


I love Ireland but my god sometimes it's a bad place/sometimes we put our citizens in such bad place/treat our women awfully.

Funny enough the pills are absolutely safe to take without the supervision of a doctor (of course prescribed by a doctor but Scotland has just started allowing people to take them at home to avoid them starting to bleed on the way home from the doctors surgery). It's when women feel they can't access medical care for fear of being reported that it starts getting unsafe.

Lavinia

Gonna vote yes.

Not that Id do it personally but can see valid reasons in variety of circumstances when it should be available.

Now surely there will be those who may misuse this option but that's on their soul.

To 'cure' the later the solution lays in education, may be the slow process but only viable in long term.

amdublin

eviltwin wrote: »

Women have died and those pro life folks don't care. It's all about control.

Sometimes. it certainly feels that way

Sandor Clegane

Maybe im living in a cave but is it likely to be changed?

I'll personally vote in favor anyway.

January

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Maybe im living in a cave but is it likely to be changed?

I'll personally vote in favor anyway.

A poll today has shown 63 percent in favour of repealing.

amdublin

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Maybe im living in a cave but is it likely to be changed?

I'll personally vote in favor anyway.

Well seeing the results of the poll in the papers today I think it is going to be tight. But I do believe that the majority of Irish people trust our women and will vote for it to be repealed.


Thank you for your support. Please get your vote in on the day. It's important for every single woman in your life and in Ireland.

amdublin

Lavinia wrote: »

Gonna vote yes.

Not that Id do it personally but can see valid reasons in variety of circumstances when it should be available.

Now surely there will be those who may misuse this option but that's on their soul.

To 'cure' the later the solution lays in education, may be the slow process but only viable in long term.

Thank you for going to vote yes.


I agree we need to support and educate anyone who ends up misusing. To be honest, I've never had one, but from my research I believe taking the pills is not an easy process. I firmly believe anyone who goes throught the physical pain and haemorrhaging would never be thinking about using it again/as contraceptive.


Thank you again, please ensure you get out and get that vote in.

2wsxcde3

Lavinia wrote: »

Now surely there will be those who may misuse this option but that's on their soul.

To 'cure' the later the solution lays in education, may be the slow process but only viable in long term.

The "slow process" will be that 3 and 4 years olds in Ireland today will grow up in an Ireland where abortion is normalized. This will result in more and more women having an abortion as a means of contraception (as has happened in the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies results in an abortion) and its often only when they have that abortion, be it a pill in the home, that they realize that the "clump of cells" they thought was inside them was actually a fully recognizable little human being complete with arms, legs and a head. Future women will be scared for life having gone through this process which they wont have been told the full truth about beforehand by the pro-choicers. And of course, none of these women will be allowed tell their story in the media. They will be hidden away in the new hidden Ireland. Women who want to tell the truth about the horror of an abortion must be kept quiet.

Ken.

Mod-Eviltwin, Less of the language or you will be thread banned or worse.

Captain Obvious

amdublin wrote: »

Irish abortions happen every day. In England. The debate changes nothing other than the location. It would be great if the other side would remove their noses out of our bedrooms and women's reproductive organs. It is not anyone's place to dictate to another woman what they do or don't do with a 12 week old foetus that is in their body.

Like I said, ignoring the core issue. You call it a 12 week old fetus. Pro life people don't see a distinction between that and a one day old baby. And saying "butt out, it's not your business" is about as effective an argument as if a parent told you to butt out when they were smacking their child around.

eviltwin wrote: »

I think the point she's making is that legal abortion here won't affect the pro life voters, they will be upset by the outcome but that's about it.

It's the women who need abortion, the women in our maternity system who will continue to suffer the consequences

Corporal punishment didn't affect me, I still supported it being banned.

eviltwin wrote: »

Women have died and those pro life kunts don't care. It's all about control.

If you can't make your point without personal insults it's not going to convince very many people.

Martina1991

2wsxcde3 wrote:

Future women will be scared for life having gone through this process which they wont have been told the full truth about beforehand by the pro-choicers. And of course, none of these women will be allowed tell their story in the media. They will be hidden away in the new hidden Ireland. Women who want to tell the truth about the horror of an abortion must be kept quiet.

That is all pure speculation and your opinion.
I would find it hard to believe that medical personnel wouldn't fully inform a patient about their abortion procedure.

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The "slow process" will be that 3 and 4 years olds in Ireland today will grow up in an Ireland where abortion is normalized. This will result in more and more women having an abortion as a means of contraception (as has happened in the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies results in an abortion) and its often only when they have that abortion, be it a pill in the home, that they realize that the "clump of cells" they thought was inside them was actually a fully recognizable little human being complete with arms, legs and a head. Future women will be scared for life having gone through this process which they wont have been told the full truth about beforehand by the pro-choicers. And of course, none of these women will be allowed tell their story in the media. They will be hidden away in the new hidden Ireland. Women who want to tell the truth about the horror of an abortion must be kept quiet.

Actually, far from being ‘traimatised’ the majority of women do not regret having an abortion.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/restrictive-abortion-policies-surface-most-women-dont-regret-choice-abort-420584

What is traumatising is being forced to endure bodily changes, discomfort, and the eventual agony of labour when the woman doesn’t want to.

Wombatman

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The "slow process" will be that 3 and 4 years olds in Ireland today will grow up in an Ireland where abortion is normalized. This will result in more and more women having an abortion as a means of contraception (as has happened in the UK, 1 in 5 pregnancies results in an abortion) and its often only when they have that abortion, be it a pill in the home, that they realize that the "clump of cells" they thought was inside them was actually a fully recognizable little human being complete with arms, legs and a head. Future women will be scared for life having gone through this process which they wont have been told the full truth about beforehand by the pro-choicers. And of course, none of these women will be allowed tell their story in the media. They will be hidden away in the new hidden Ireland. Women who want to tell the truth about the horror of an abortion must be kept quiet.

Will you go way with that nonsence. 95% of women in the U.S., who get an abortion, don't regret it. You are the one not telling the full truth.

I would say the majority of women who are forced carry to full term with a known fatal defect regret it.

Currently Irish women who have had abortion keep quite because of the likes of you.

2wsxcde3

Wombatman wrote: »

Will you go way with that nonsence. 95% of women in the U.S., who get an abortion, don't regret it. You are the one not telling the full truth.

I would say the majority of women who are forced carry to full term with a known fatal defect regret it.

Currently Irish women who have had abortion keep quite because of the likes of you.

Those are skewed statistics in favor of the pro-choice position. We've had X and Y cases here. But what no one wants mentioned is the fact that the C case woman regretted having the abortion she fought to have:

C-Case mum: I grieve for my lost baby every day
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/ccase-mum-i-grieve-for-my-lost-baby-every-day-29241584.html )

...and surprise surprise, the C case woman was attacked by the pro-choice side for coming out and admitting this:

Ivana Bacik insults 'C' Case woman who regrets abortion, claims she was "manipulated"
Ivana Bacik, the pro-choice/pro-abortion Labour Senator who has called for the abortion debate to be conducted "in a respectful and dignified fashion" has brought the level of debate to a new low by insulting the rape victim who was the subject of the C Case in 1997 and subsequently expressed regret at having an abortion.
(Source: http://www.politics.ie/forum/labour/202773-ivana-bacik-insults-c-case-woman-who-regrets-abortion-claims-she-manipulated.html )

eviltwin

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Those are skewed statistics in favor of the pro-choice position. We've had X and Y cases here. But what no one wants mentioned is the fact that the C case woman regretted having the abortion she fought to have:

C-Case mum: I grieve for my lost baby every day
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/ccase-mum-i-grieve-for-my-lost-baby-every-day-29241584.html )

...and surprise surprise, the C case woman was attacked by the pro-choice side for coming out and admitting this:

Ivana Bacik insults 'C' Case woman who regrets abortion, claims she was "manipulated"
Ivana Bacik, the pro-choice/pro-abortion Labour Senator who has called for the abortion debate to be conducted "in a respectful and dignified fashion" has brought the level of debate to a new low by insulting the rape victim who was the subject of the C Case in 1997 and subsequently expressed regret at having an abortion.
(Source: http://www.politics.ie/forum/labour/202773-ivana-bacik-insults-c-case-woman-who-regrets-abortion-claims-she-manipulated.html )

That's one woman. There are plenty of accounts, some on this thread in fact, from women with no regrets. What's your point?

Andrew Beef

There is something very disturbing about a woman who is neither upset nor regretful about ending the life of her unborn child.

The most salient and shocking statistic for me, however, is that 1 in 5 pregnancies in the UK end in an abortion. I find that astonishing; it effectively means that abortion is being used as a method of contraception. Is that the road we want our society to go down?

2wsxcde3

Andrew Beef wrote: »

There is something very disturbing about a woman who is neither upset nor regretful about ending the life of her unborn child.

The most salient and shocking statistic for me, however, is that 1 in 5 pregnancies in the UK end in an abortion. I find that astonishing; it effectively means that abortion is being used as a method of contraception. Is that the road we want our society to go down?

I'm voting no. Irish women (and men) deserve better than being brainwashed by the far left into thinking abortion is an "good" "empowering" thing.

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Those are skewed statistics in favor of the pro-choice position. We've had X and Y cases here. But what no one wants mentioned is the fact that the C case woman regretted having the abortion she fought to have:

C-Case mum: I grieve for my lost baby every day
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/ccase-mum-i-grieve-for-my-lost-baby-every-day-29241584.html )

...and surprise surprise, the C case woman was attacked by the pro-choice side for coming out and admitting this:

Ivana Bacik insults 'C' Case woman who regrets abortion, claims she was "manipulated"
Ivana Bacik, the pro-choice/pro-abortion Labour Senator who has called for the abortion debate to be conducted "in a respectful and dignified fashion" has brought the level of debate to a new low by insulting the rape victim who was the subject of the C Case in 1997 and subsequently expressed regret at having an abortion.
(Source: http://www.politics.ie/forum/labour/202773-ivana-bacik-insults-c-case-woman-who-regrets-abortion-claims-she-manipulated.html )

One traumatised, raped girl who had no say over what happened to her at any point of that story is not equatable to a grown woman making her own decision , that she has come to for her own reasons.

Annasopra

pleas advice wrote: »

dehumanising the fetus,
demonising the pro life as backwards, hate-filled misogynists, religious control freaks,
just so you can avoid, not even accepting the fact that the fetus is a living, human entity, but avoid accepting the fact that a sizeable minority of the population view it as such...

is it any wonder that theres so few pro life posting, if they're jumped on and hounded out of the thread for even opening their mouths

Moderators have stepped in when some pro life posters have posted extreme, offensive views and made stuff. That isnt silencing at all to be honest. It is reasonable moderation that weeds out extremism and fake news.

swampgas

Andrew Beef wrote: »

There is something very disturbing about a woman who is neither upset nor regretful about ending the life of her unborn child.

The most salient and shocking statistic for me, however, is that 1 in 5 pregnancies in the UK end in an abortion. I find that astonishing; it effectively means that abortion is being used as a method of contraception. Is that the road we want our society to go down?

You just don't get it - Irish women are already having abortions, and have had for decades, just not in this country. And on top of that, the Irish people voted in a referendum to guarantee that they could keep travelling abroad to have abortions.

You can be as disturbed as you like, and as shocked as you like, about how women who are pregnant don't share your values and don't make the same decisions as you might, but the fact is that Irish women need safe abortion services in their own country.

Andrew Beef

swampgas wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

There is something very disturbing about a woman who is neither upset nor regretful about ending the life of her unborn child.

The most salient and shocking statistic for me, however, is that 1 in 5 pregnancies in the UK end in an abortion. I find that astonishing; it effectively means that abortion is being used as a method of contraception. Is that the road we want our society to go down?

You just don't get it - Irish women are already having abortions, and have had for decades, just not in this country. And on top of that, the Irish people voted in a referendum to guarantee that they could keep travelling abroad to have abortions.

You can be as disturbed as you like, and as shocked as you like, about how women who are pregnant don't share your values and don't make the same decisions as you might, but the fact is that Irish women need safe abortion services in their own country.

With the greatest respect, no they don’t.

If women want to end the lives of their unborn children, they should be compelled to travel overseas.

January

Andrew Beef wrote: »

With the greatest respect, no they don’t.

If women want to end the lives of their unborn children, they should be compelled to travel overseas.

Another nimby. Fantastic.

Annasopra

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I'm voting no. Irish women (and men) deserve better than being brainwashed by the far left into thinking abortion is an "good" "empowering" thing.

This isnt a far left thing at all. Across Europe and the world abortion is supported by the whole political spectrum. I think your red scare mccarthyite reds under the bed stuff is frankly quite odd.

2wsxcde3

swampgas wrote: »

You just don't get it - Irish women are already having abortions, and have had for decades, just not in this country. And on top of that, the Irish people voted in a referendum to guarantee that they could keep travelling abroad to have abortions.

You can be as disturbed as you like, and as shocked as you like, about how women who are pregnant don't share your values and don't make the same decisions as you might, but the fact is that Irish women need safe abortion services in their own country.

Just because women are having abortions, it does not mean that abortion is ok. Pro-choicers seem to confuse the idea that if something is already happening, then that thing is a good and ok thing.

We have people not paying their TV licence. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing people who dont pay their TV licence and do away with the TV licence and shut RTE down? Men are getting on a plane every weekend and travelling to Amsterdam to have sex with 3 or more prostitutes. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing men who travel to another country to have sex with a prostitute and introduce brothels in every town and village across Ireland?

kylith

Andrew Beef wrote: »

With the greatest respect, no they don’t.

If women want to end the lives of their unborn children, they should be compelled to travel overseas.

Why?

amdublin

Andrew Beef wrote: »

With the greatest respect, no they don’t.

If women want to end the lives of their unborn children, they should be compelled to travel overseas.

I am at a loss. Do you care about the unborn children or not?


This seems like you care to a point, but once it is a fait accompli once it happens overseas then fair game


(At least it's difficult for the woman/kind of like she has been punished for daring to have an abortion??)

swampgas

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I'm voting no. Irish women (and men) deserve better than being brainwashed by the far left into thinking abortion is an "good" "empowering" thing.

So who's actually brainwashed here? You want to discredit those who are pro-choice as being brain-washed? Many of the posters on here started out as anti-abortion and yet, over time, have moved to being pro-choice. The brain-washing of a lot of people (myself included) was done at school during the 80's, as all sorts of false and emotive material was pushed down our throats by teachers who should have known better. If anything I have had to unlearn the brain-washing to fully understand what pregnancy actually entails, and to learn that you have to respect women enough to allow them to make their own decisions about what's right for them, because women are people in their own right. (And it's bizarre that that should have to be spelled out for anyone.)

Many arguments against giving women a choice, when you scrape away the veneer, seems to boil down to "Women can't be trusted not to be baby-killers" and "The dirty sluts had their fun and should pay the price". It might not be a consciously held view, but it seems to be a constant theme, lurking in the subconscious of many opposed to repealing the 8th.

Have you ever wondered why you hold the views you hold? Who and what were your influences? Maybe it's time to re-evaluate.

Annasopra

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Those are skewed statistics in favor of the pro-choice position.

Whats your source they are skewed?

Ken.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

Also everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean they are wrong.


I'm locking the thread for 20 minutes so people can see this and maybe calm down a bit.

Ken.

Mod-Thread reopened.

amdublin

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Just because women are having abortions, it does not mean that abortion is ok. Pro-choicers seem to confuse the idea that if something is already happening, then that thing is a good and ok thing.

We have people not paying their TV licence. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing people who dont pay their TV licence and do away with the TV licence and shut RTE down? Men are getting on a plane every weekend and travelling to Amsterdam to have sex with 3 or more prostitutes. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing men who travel to another country to have sex with a prostitute and introduce brothels in every town and village across Ireland?

I think the point is that nothing will change, just the location. The sky will not fall down.


I am wondering why you are mentioning stigmatizing/Amsterdam in a thread about abortion/the 8th amendment. Do you think there is a stigma about abortion/women who have had an abortion?

AnneFrank

This go's back to my previous point, having the mob jumping down the neck of anyone with a differing view,pro life in this case will just stop debate out of fear of being labelled,just like the recent marriage referendum.Pity but the modern follow the sheep trend I guess

eviltwin

AnneFrank wrote: »

This go's back to my previous point, having the mob jumping down the neck of anyone with a differing view,pro life in this case will just stop debate out of fear of being labelled,just like the recent marriage referendum.Pity but the modern follow the sheep trend I guess

7000 posts says you are wrong. There is no one stopping debate here. The majority of posters on this page are in favour of repeal just as the majority supported SSM. Being outnumbered doesnt mean you are being ganged up on.

AnneFrank

eviltwin wrote: »

7000 posts says you are wrong. There is no one stopping debate here. The majority of posters on this page are in favour of repeal just as the majority supported SSM. Being outnumbered doesnt mean you are being ganged up on.

I think you're missing the point,

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

This go's back to my previous point, having the mob jumping down the neck of anyone with a differing view,pro life in this case will just stop debate out of fear of being labelled,just like the recent marriage referendum.Pity but the modern follow the sheep trend I guess

Well when people are going around making unfounded, ignorant and highly offensive comments with no basis on reality it’s bound to get people’s backs up.

Just within the last day I’ve seen abortion compared to FGM, the holocaust, and most recently, prostitution.
There is no defense for making those comparisons.
Can you imagine how distressing and angering it may be to read such claims, especially considering many posters here may have had or know someone who has had an abortion themselves?

eviltwin

AnneFrank wrote: »

I think you're missing the point,

What is your point?