The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Orion

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No
We have a gay man marrying his straight best friend in order to avoid inheritance tax. It could happen with a straight couple and could have happened with a gay civil partnered couple. There is no experimental mode. There is no fraud. There is no problem. Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Has happened with straight couples. Not could have.

kylith

Actually, young people are having less sex.

Annasopra

Orion wrote: »

Has happened with straight couples. Not could have.

Indeed. Utter nonsense dressed up with weird obsessions about commie mommies

2wsxcde3

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Your McCarthyite reds under the bed stuff is very odd.

Very odd is it?

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch.Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced ...by the media. In other words, its not their own choice. They feel under pressure to have sex. So the media is causing alot of the problem and then they need to force an abortion referendum on people to fix the problem they helped create.

Annasopra

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Very odd is it?

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch.Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced ...by the media. In other words, its not their own choice. They feel under pressure to have sex. So the media is causing alot of the problem and then they need to force an abortion referendum on people to fix the problem they helped create.

Hmmmm

A 9 year old report that proves a minority of young people feel pressured. Your suggestion earlier was that feeling pressured is tge default position of all young people. Doesnt exactly prove your point at all.

I dont disagree that young people are pressured but as was highlighted in the Oireachtas committee our sex education in this country is extremely poor.

Neyite

That's no different to my generation where I came of age in the beginning of the nineties.

We didn't have abortion then either. In fact, we didn't even have the right to travel back then. All that information was censored, and condoms were hidden under the counter. Many GP's still refused to prescribe the pill.

Still didn't stop my fellow teens having sex or getting knocked up.

pleas advice

captbarnacles wrote: »

The latest two prolifers to the thread are clearly on a wind-up. Rape committees and no sex before marriage to thwart the liberals?

david75 wrote: »

The PLC bots are becoming blatantly obvious at this stage.

Same circular nonsensical points, endless nimbyism, little grasp of what the referendum is actually about and knock out blow, Nobody in the real world has even used the word fornication for about 20 years.

well, is it any surprise when you label any poster who might put forward a pro life viewpoint as 'misogynist, religious, women-hating control freaks. who doesn't actually believe that the fetus is human, but is just anti abortion for ****s and giggles, just to slut-shame the little hussies'

that the moderates might think to themselves '**** this for a game of soldiers' and all you're left with is...

pilly

I've got an idea Ted, we can't stop people having abortions so we'll stop them fornicating!

Brilliant Dougal!

2wsxcde3

pilly wrote: »

I've got an idea Ted, we can't stop people having abortions so we'll stop them fornicating!

Brilliant Dougal!

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:

1. You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.
2. There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

JupiterKid

It’s funny, isn’t it? Teenage pregnancies here in Ireland have seen huge drops in recent years as proper sex education has finally made its way to all schools, despite fierce and bitter resistance from religious right wing types. In every country where sex education has been implemented and enhanced, teen pregnancy rates have dropped.

Doesn’t tally with the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

pleas advice

JupiterKid wrote: »

the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

:rolleyes:

January

Andrew Beef wrote: »

January wrote: »

I was married when I had an abortion. (ó still am married just as an FYI to the same person). I was not married when I had my very unplanned pregnancy that I decided to keep (same father still). Unplanned pregnancies happen to married people too.

If it’s not too personal a line of questioning, and please feel free not to answer, why did you have an abortion and do you regret it at all?

I've spoken about it here before so ive no problem discussing it. It was a litany of reasons, number 1 was we couldn't afford another child. We were both out of work on social welfare barely getting by week to week (I had to borrow the money for the online donation for pills). Number 2 was I actually didn't want anymore children even if we could afford it really we had 4 already. 3 was id had 2 previous cesareans the chance of me having another was high and I really didn't want anyone cutting my abdomen open again. I could go on. I had a lot of reasons but the biggest one was that we couldnt afford to bring another child into the world.

Do I regret it? No. Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make (even though I had already thought of what my options were before I had gotten pregnant so I already had an idea of what would happen if I did get pregnant). It was the right decision for my family at the time and if I had to go back in time I'd still make the same decision as I made.

2wsxcde3

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:

1. You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.
2. There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

What about people who dont want to marry?
Should they not have a full sex life then?

Edward M

January wrote: »

I've spoken about it here before so ive no problem discussing it. It was a litany of reasons, number 1 was we couldn't afford another child. We were both out of work on social welfare barely getting by week to week (I had to borrow the money for the online donation for pills). Number 2 was I actually didn't want anymore children even if we could afford it really we had 4 already. 3 was id had 2 previous cesareans the chance of me having another was high and I really didn't want anyone cutting my abdomen open again. I could go on. I had a lot of reasons but the biggest one was that we couldnt afford to bring another child into the world.

Do I regret it? No. Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make (even though I had already thought of what my options were before I had gotten pregnant so I already had an idea of what would happen if I did get pregnant). It was the right decision for my family at the time and if I had to go back in time I'd still make the same decision as I made.

And you need offer no apology for your decision, you felt that right for you and your family.
There is no doubt in my mind that such decisions aren't easily made.
Just one question, given that you had your mind made up, probably anyway, prior to the pregnancy, why not consider having your tubes tied?
I ask this as someone who had a vasectomy due to the same issue, my wife's last birth was hard, I decided on the course of action with her rather than have her go through another procedure herself.

nice_guy80

pleas advice wrote: »

:rolleyes:

great argument there.

pitifulgod

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:

1. You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.
2. There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

Out of interest, do you view sex education as pressure to have sex? Do you think it's bad? I'm getting a distinct impression that you'd view everything from attitude towards gay people to sex lives of others as negative. Would that be correct?

January

Edward M wrote: »

January wrote: »

I've spoken about it here before so ive no problem discussing it. It was a litany of reasons, number 1 was we couldn't afford another child. We were both out of work on social welfare barely getting by week to week (I had to borrow the money for the online donation for pills). Number 2 was I actually didn't want anymore children even if we could afford it really we had 4 already. 3 was id had 2 previous cesareans the chance of me having another was high and I really didn't want anyone cutting my abdomen open again. I could go on. I had a lot of reasons but the biggest one was that we couldnt afford to bring another child into the world.

Do I regret it? No. Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make (even though I had already thought of what my options were before I had gotten pregnant so I already had an idea of what would happen if I did get pregnant). It was the right decision for my family at the time and if I had to go back in time I'd still make the same decision as I made.

And you need offer no apology for your decision, you felt that right for you and your family.
There is no doubt in my mind that such decisions aren't easily made.
Just one question, given that you had your mind made up, probably anyway, prior to the pregnancy, why not consider having your tubes tied?
I ask this as someone who had a vasectomy due to the same issue, my wife's last birth was hard, I decided on the course of action with her rather than have her go through another procedure herself.

I've asked and been told I need to lose a lot of weight before I get it done. This was before the abortion BTW about 2 months after that I got pregnant. Because I missed the follow up appt (I hadn't lost the weight in the 6 months I was given) I was put back in the waiting list which is long. We couldn't afford it privately. Don't worry I was way ahead of you just **** happens.

pitifulgod

January wrote: »

I've asked and been told I need to lose a lot of weight before I get it done. This was before the abortion BTW about 2 months after that I got pregnant. Because I missed the follow up appt (I hadn't lost the weight in the 6 months I was given) I was put back in the waiting list which is long. We couldn't afford it privately. Don't worry I was way ahead of you just **** happens.

Plus there's other scenarios where some women mightn't want to have another child at this point in time but might later on. Imagine getting the procedure is one of those things that's deeply personal in own right as well.

Edward M

January wrote: »

I've asked and been told I need to lose a lot of weight before I get it done. This was before the abortion BTW about 2 months after that I got pregnant. Because I missed the follow up appt (I hadn't lost the weight in the 6 months I was given) I was put back in the waiting list which is long. We couldn't afford it privately. Don't worry I was way ahead of you just **** happens.

Ah I'm not questioning you personally, fair play for your story.
But I'm sure these type of things will be thrown out during the debate.
A lot would be against that procedure too I'd say.
When we considered it first it was my wife who was going to have it done, the gynaecologist that delivered our two children wouldn't do it for her, he said she was too young.
We got another one who was willing to do it in a different hospital, but anyway, as my wife was in bad form at the time I went and got it done myself, but not without great pains to achieve it.

January

By the way I make no apologies to anybody about my decision. The reason why I'm so open about discussing it here is that the majority of abortions happen for the same reasons mine did.

51 percent of abortions performed in 2016 in the UK were due to contraception failures.

54% of those who had abortions were already mothers.

Orion

JupiterKid wrote: »

It’s funny, isn’t it? Teenage pregnancies here in Ireland have seen huge drops in recent years as proper sex education has finally made its way to all schools, despite fierce and bitter resistance from religious right wing types. In every country where sex education has been implemented and enhanced, teen pregnancy rates have dropped.

Doesn’t tally with the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

Indeed. If you look at maps of the US states where no sex ed or abstinence only programs are taught teen pregnancies are the highest.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:

1. You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.
2. There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

Are you married? Do you or did you ever engage in pre-marital sex?
If so you are a massive hypocrite.

With your little regime we would also have the issues we had in the past - people who barely know each other getting wed because the family found out they were fornicating, pushing marriage on them so as not to have the girl ‘shamed’.

These relationships were an absolute disaster because given the chance to get to know each other properly, a lot of these people would never have married in the first place.

pilly

Edward M wrote:

And you need offer no apology for your decision, you felt that right for you and your family. There is no doubt in my mind that such decisions aren't easily made. Just one question, given that you had your mind made up, probably anyway, prior to the pregnancy, why not consider having your tubes tied? I ask this as someone who had a vasectomy due to the same issue, my wife's last birth was hard, I decided on the course of action with her rather than have her go through another procedure herself.

Doctors will not tie a woman's tubes as long as she's young.

Another example of the lack of bodily autonomy women have.

Orion

pilly wrote: »

Doctors will not tie a woman's tubes as long as she's young.

Another example of the lack of bodily autonomy women have.

The depends on the hospital and the doctor. Some hospitals won't do it at all - e.g. St. Vincents - for religious reasons (that's another discussion) and some women have been refused by some doctors due to their age. But other doctors will.

pilly

Orion wrote:

The depends on the hospital and the doctor. Some hospitals won't do it at all - e.g. St. Vincents - for religious reasons (that's another discussion) and some women have been refused by some doctors due to their age. But other doctors will.

From my own experience neither the Coombe nor the Rotunda would. Mind you this was 10 years ago when they both had male "Masters" which even then struck me as a disgusting term.

The term is still used for some reason but at least now there are some females in the role.

Orion

The Rotunda is catholic too. Didn't think the Coombe was. The NMH does do them. But as for age that depends on the doctor in any of them.

kylith

A culture of no sex before marriage had the Magdalene laundries doing a roaring trade, back in the day. And the lack of sex ed meant that girls didn't even know how what sex was or how pregnancy happened.

NuMarvel

JupiterKid wrote: »

It’s funny, isn’t it? Teenage pregnancies here in Ireland have seen huge drops in recent years as proper sex education has finally made its way to all schools, despite fierce and bitter resistance from religious right wing types. In every country where sex education has been implemented and enhanced, teen pregnancy rates have dropped.

Doesn’t tally with the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

It's interesting to compare number of teenage pregnancies with the recorded number of teenagers who travel to Britain for an abortion. Between 2001 and 2016, the number of teenage pregnancies fell by 64%. In the same timeframe, the number of Irish teenagers recorded having an abortion in Britain fell by 74%.

At first glance, it would seem that the best way to reduce the incidence of abortion, for teenagers at least, is to prevent crisis pregnancies in the first place.

And this would seem to be consistent with international experience too. The Netherlands, which has the least restrictive abortion laws in Europe, has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. And that's mainly credited to their sex education in schools, their family planning services, and the availability (and subsidisation in some cases) of contraception

bubblypop wrote: »

What about people who dont want to marry?
Should they not have a full sex life then?

To say nothing of the people who couldn't get married until about two and a half years ago.

Wombatman

Funny stuff going on around the timing of the referendum. Looks like a lot of 3rd level students, generally pro choice, could have difficulty voting. May difficult because of exams, but there is talk about pushing it back to June now where many students will be off travelling or on J1s.

JDD

Thanks for telling your story January. It's similar to mine. On my third pregnancy I was one of the 0.1% who get pregnant on the pill (despite taking it properly). I seriously considered the online abortion pill, going as far as ordering it and then cancelling my order. We were lucky enough to be in a financial position to afford another child, so that was a big plus in favour of me choosing to continue the pregnancy. However I also already had two C-sections and desperately didn't want a third, as I had diastasis recti which was causing debilitating back pain. However weighing up the pros and cons I decided to continue.

The NMH actually suggested that I have my tubes tied, after I had suspected placenta accretia. My chances of having it on a fourth pregnancy are very high. The chances of getting pregnant after having your tubes tied are 0.1% and its unlikely lightening will strike twice, but should it happen (and the 8th has not been repealed) I won't be cancelling my order of the pill. And I certainly won't regret it. Had I chosen to take the online pill last time around I wouldn't have regretted it either - in the same way that I could have had 20 children by now and I don't miss any of them either.

Orion

The Govt are still focusing on the 25th May. Most students don't go until early June so should still be around.

JDD

And hopefully the universities won't schedule exams on that day.

Orion

Most of them finish before then tbh. Even if they do the polls are open from 7am to 10pm. More people will be working than doing exams and we manage to vote.

ohnonotgmail

Orion wrote: »

Most of them finish before then tbh. Even if they do the polls are open from 7am to 10pm. More people will be working than doing exams and we manage to vote.

true enough but a lot of students are still registered at their home address so travel home to vote.

Wombatman

Social Protection Minister Regina Doherty said that the abortion referendum will "most likely be held in June".

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/minister-denies-confusing-repeal-issue-says-vote-may-be-held-in-june-467360.html

NuMarvel

Orion wrote: »

Most of them finish before then tbh. Even if they do the polls are open from 7am to 10pm. More people will be working than doing exams and we manage to vote.

Students usually need to travel further though, because where they're registered to vote can be in a completely different part of the country from where they go to college. That's not as much an issue for working people, because any travel time is probably their usual commute anyway.

NuMarvel

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

true enough but a lot of students are still registered at their home address so travel home to vote.

And are also reliant on public transport to travel.

Wombatman

Same sex marriage referendum was held on the 22nd of May. Would be happy with the end of May but many 3 level students will have already made travel plans for June.

lazygal

NuMarvel wrote: »

Students usually need to travel further though, because where they're registered to vote can be in a completely different part of the country from where they go to college. That's not as much an issue for working people, because any travel time is probably their usual commute anyway.

Why can't they register where they live during term time? When I was in college people who really wanted to vote made sure it didn't require a giant trip back to a home county. It is not a huge deal, we moved house last year and reregistered in no time.

Orion

Wombatman wrote: »

Social Protection Minister Regina Doherty said that the abortion referendum will "most likely be held in June".

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/minister-denies-confusing-repeal-issue-says-vote-may-be-held-in-june-467360.html

Yet Simon Harris has consistently said 25th May and he's publishing the bill on the 6th of March which is two days shy of the deadline for that date.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/eighth-amendment-referendum-harris-to-bring-draft-legislation-on-vote-to-cabinet-36622627.html

Orion

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

true enough but a lot of students are still registered at their home address so travel home to vote.

NuMarvel wrote: »

Students usually need to travel further though, because where they're registered to vote can be in a completely different part of the country from where they go to college. That's not as much an issue for working people, because any travel time is probably their usual commute anyway.

NuMarvel wrote: »

And are also reliant on public transport to travel.

They registered in their thousands for MarRef at their college addresses. All SUs have been running registration drives and when the bill is published you can go on to a supplementary register. There really is no excuse. If you want to vote you can, no matter where you are currently residing.

NuMarvel

lazygal wrote: »

Why can't they register where they live during term time? When I was in college people who really wanted to vote made sure it didn't require a giant trip back to a home county. It is not a huge deal, we moved house last year and reregistered in no time.

I think a better question is why can't we let people vote in referendums at any polling station? A constituency based approach makes sense for general or local elections, but for national polls like referendums or Presidential elections, there shouldn't be any reason someone can't go to whatever polling station they want.

Neyite

If the pro side can organise free buses for OAP's up to Dublin to attend pro-life rallies, there's no reason why the repeal side can't crowdfund for the students to bus them home from their university cities to vote at home if needs be. The bus network is already there, it's just a matter of asking those drivers to do an extra shift.

I'd donate to that GoFundMe page if it was set up. Also, anyone who lives abroad and is ineligible to vote could also donate thereby assisting a repealer in casting their vote.

NuMarvel

Orion wrote: »

Yet Simon Harris has consistently said 25th May and he's publishing the bill on the 6th of March which is two days shy of the deadline for that date.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/eighth-amendment-referendum-harris-to-bring-draft-legislation-on-vote-to-cabinet-36622627.html

What deadline is that? As far as I'm aware, a referendum can be formally called no less than 30 days beforehand and no more than 90 days before. If the referendum was to be held on the 25th May, the final deadline the Oireachtas and government have to get all their parts done in the referendum bill is 25th April (30 days). That's to debate and pass the referendum bill, and issue the polling day order to formally confirm the referendum.

Obviously though sooner is better in any case, especially because the referendum commission can't be set up until the Dáil start debating the referendum bill. But the government isn't likely to introduce a bill until after the Supreme Court appeal about the definition of unborn, which is due to be heard this week.

lazygal

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think a better question is why can't we let people vote in referendums at any polling station? A constituency based approach makes sense for general or local elections, but for national polls like referendums or Presidential elections, there shouldn't be any reason someone can't go to whatever polling station they want.

Right now that is not the system we have. And it won't be for the referendum. So students should ensure they face the least number of barriers in terms of voting, which often means registering where they live now and will live in May, and not moaning about how they stayed on the electoral roll somewhere they barely visit or can't get to easily.

MrPudding

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Just because women are having abortions, it does not mean that abortion is ok. Pro-choicers seem to confuse the idea that if something is already happening, then that thing is a good and ok thing.

We have people not paying their TV licence. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing people who dont pay their TV licence and do away with the TV licence and shut RTE down? Men are getting on a plane every weekend and travelling to Amsterdam to have sex with 3 or more prostitutes. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing men who travel to another country to have sex with a prostitute and introduce brothels in every town and village across Ireland?

That seems oddly specific...

MrP

Orion

NuMarvel wrote: »

What deadline is that? As far as I'm aware, a referendum can be formally called no less than 30 days beforehand and no more than 90 days before. If the referendum was to be held on the 25th May, the final deadline the Oireachtas and government have to get all their parts done in the referendum bill is 25th April (30 days). That's to debate and pass the referendum bill, and issue the polling day order to formally confirm the referendum.

Obviously though sooner is better in any case, especially because the referendum commission can't be set up until the Dáil start debating the referendum bill. But the government isn't likely to introduce a bill until after the Supreme Court appeal about the definition of unborn, which is due to be heard this week.

You're right about the 30 and 90n days but this is their own deadline due to the Dail breaking for a week for Paddys Day and 2 weeks for Easter. They are allocating 3 weeks for debates apart from those breaks. So realistically the 1st week of March is the deadline to publish the bill in the Oireachtas.

Orion

MrPudding wrote: »

That seems oddly specific...

MrP

I think it's another one of those bizarre allegations that "You don't need a link for the obvious" to back up.

Billy86

NuMarvel wrote: »

To say nothing of the people who couldn't get married until about two and a half years ago.

I was in the middle of posting just that, it's quite the convenient overlap that so many against sex before marriage would also likely be against same sex marriage don't ya think?

Wombatman

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We have people not paying their TV licence. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing people who dont pay their TV licence and do away with the TV licence and shut RTE down?

Men are getting on a plane every weekend and travelling to Amsterdam to have sex with 3 or more prostitutes. Does that mean we should stop stigmatizing men who travel to another country to have sex with a prostitute and introduce brothels in every town and village across Ireland?

Yes to both for me.