The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

MrPudding

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Yes it can. If a child stumbles on a cliff edge and is hanging over the edge, the state requires you to pull him up before he falls. You can't just sit back and continue eating your ice cream while he's screaming for your help.

They are called "Duty To Rescue" laws. You can't claim bodily autonomy and just do nothing.

A duty to rescue is a concept in tort law that arises in a number of cases, describing a circumstance in which a party can be held liable for failing to come to the rescue of another party in peril.
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue )

I have not checked your link, but I don't believe that applies in Ireland, and it certainly doesn't in the UK. I can (though I wouldn't, there is that pesky choice thing again) sit on my ass and watch a child drown, and there would be no legal consequences. If that child happened to be my child (I have a bunch of kids, because whilst I am pro-choice I am, not pro-abortion. A pro-abortionist with 4 kids and no abortions is pretty crap at it), then there is a duty of care, but there is no duty of care to strangers.

In addition to that, the duty of care would only apply to a human in being, similar to why abortion is nit murder. The offence of murder has very specific requirements, the main one being the entity being murdered must be a human in being, a born person.

MrP

v638sg7k1a92bx

January wrote: »

By the way I make no apologies to anybody about my decision. The reason why I'm so open about discussing it here is that the majority of abortions happen for the same reasons mine did.

51 percent of abortions performed in 2016 in the UK were due to contraception failures.

54% of those who had abortions were already mothers.

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

pleas advice

nice_guy80 wrote: »

great argument there.

pleas advice wrote: »

well, is it any surprise when you label any poster who might put forward a pro life viewpoint as 'misogynist, religious, women-hating control freaks. who doesn't actually believe that the fetus is human, but is just anti abortion for ****s and giggles, just to slut-shame the little hussies'

that the moderates might think to themselves '**** this for a game of soldiers' and all you're left with is...

Better?

Edward M

MrPudding wrote: »

I have not checked your link, but I don't believe that applies in Ireland, and it certainly doesn't in the UK. I can (though I wouldn't, there is that pesky choice thing again) sit on my ass and watch a child drown, and there would be no legal consequences. If that child happened to be my child (I have a bunch of kids, because whilst I am pro-choice I am, not pro-abortion. A pro-abortionist with 4 kids and no abortions is pretty crap at it), then there is a duty of care, but there is no duty of care to strangers.

In addition to that, the duty of care would only apply to a human in being, similar to why abortion is nit murder. The offence of murder has very specific requirements, the main one being the entity being murdered must be a human in being, a born person.

MrP

In some states in america unlawful killing of a fetus is considered as can be considered as homicide.
This dissent include abortion of course, but the killing of a fetus during the commission of a crime.
Its interesting that in such cases the fetus is recognised as human.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

kylith

Brendan Eager Stud wrote: »

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

Abortion is not contraception. Abortion is one method of taking responsibility for the failure of contraception.

NuMarvel

Billy86 wrote: »

I was in the middle of posting just that, it's quite the convenient overlap that so many against sex before marriage would also likely be against same sex marriage don't ya think?

Complete coincidence I'm sure.

Just as it's a complete coincidence that absolutely everyone who campaigned against marriage equality is also opposed to repeal. Mullen, Healy Rae, McGrath, the Ionas, the Catholic Church, Family & Life, the spokespeople for "Mothers & Fathers Matter"... the list goes on.

JDD

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

Well, as a medical term, no, as conception has already occurred so nothing could be "contra" to it i.e. nothing can prevent something that has already occurred. I'm not a doctor but I guess a suggested medical term would be contragravidity, or something that prevents continuation of a pregnancy.

So there you go. The Pill, condoms and the coil are methods of contraception. Abortion is a method of contragravidity. Does that help?

January

JDD wrote: »

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

Well, as a medical term, no, as conception has already occurred so nothing could be "contra" to it i.e. nothing can prevent something that has already occurred. I'm not a doctor but I guess a suggested medical term would be contragravidity, or something that prevents continuation of a pregnancy.

So there you go. The Pill, condoms and the coil are methods of contraception. Abortion is a method of contragravidity. Does that help?

This is a better answer than I could have given anyway.

amdublin

I disagree with what has been brought into the discussion here on this thread about only having sex in marriage.

It implies that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing.

Sex is a good thing! Human beings need touch. As long as everyone is being safe (and preventing against sti's or pregnancy if you dont want to get pregnant) then what harm is it.

I will be open and honest here, I was brainwashed for years - mainly from my convent school education - that sex was a bad thing and I suffered something terrible from guilt and anxiety. Me now, I realise that at the right time, and with the right person sex is not bad (the opposite on fact).

Why oh why are some people so intent on controlling other people's bedroom activity?

MrPudding

Edward M wrote: »

In some states in america unlawful killing of a fetus is considered as can be considered as homicide.
This dissent include abortion of course, but the killing of a fetus during the commission of a crime.
Its interesting that in such cases the fetus is recognised as human.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

Couple of points. First, that is America.

Secondly, homicide is not murder. Homicide is a class of offences which contains specific offences like murder and manslaughter. My point was abortion was not murder, and nothing you have posted contradicts that.

As for recognition as human. Meh. I certainly would not say otherwise, it is clearly human. I would make the distinction, however, between a human, a human in being (a born human) and a person. Those particular laws in your link define an "unborn victim" and whilst, as the article also says, it may a a step toward recognised personhood for the unborn, the fact that it is a step toward logically means the unborn does not currently have personhood.

MrP

MrPudding

JDD wrote: »

Well, as a medical term, no, as conception has already occurred so nothing could be "contra" to it i.e. nothing can prevent something that has already occurred. I'm not a doctor but I guess a suggested medical term would be contragravidity, or something that prevents continuation of a pregnancy.

So there you go. The Pill, condoms and the coil are methods of contraception. Abortion is a method of contragravidity. Does that help?

The pro-life cares not for the correct meaning of a word. That's why they keep saying abortion is murder.

MrP

2wsxcde3

kylith wrote: »

A culture of no sex before marriage had the Magdalene laundries doing a roaring trade, back in the day. And the lack of sex ed meant that girls didn't even know how what sex was or how pregnancy happened.

Yet again, here we have people mindlessly repeating anti-Catholic propaganda they've been fed by the media without actually doing their own research:

Teenage pregnancies decline as funding for sex education is cut
The state’s efforts to teach adolescents about sex and make access to contraceptives easier may have encouraged risky behaviour rather than curbed it, the research suggests.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-education-funding-cuts-drive-decline-in-teenage-pregnancies-n67v6mnzr )

Zubeneschamali

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Yet again, here we have people mindlessly repeating anti-Catholic propaganda they've been fed by the media without actually doing their own research:

When one study contradicts "conventional wisdom", meaning lots and lots of studies, you should not bet the farm on it.

Here is a response citing some of those studies.

2wsxcde3

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

When one study contradicts "conventional wisdom", meaning lots and lots of studies, you should not bet the farm on it.

Here is a response citing some of those studies.

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

david75

So you don’t want teens being given sex education but you are alarmed at the increase in STIs generally

You don’t see the disconnect here?

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

No they were not better.
Women were a mans property and treated like dirt, sexual assaults were always blamed on the woman’s ‘promiscuousness’ while the man got off scot free.
Children were treated disgracefully, particularly when born out of wedlock, they were second class citizens, because of their illegitimacy.

And that’s without even touching on the mother and baby homes, septic tanks, clergy abuse and the Magdalene laundries.
I thank my lucky stars that I wasn’t alive during those times because the situation was horrible. What that generation went through is nothing to hold dear or aspire to.

Rose tinted glasses or what.

ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

even the iona institute disagrees with you on that https://ionainstitute.ie/irelands-teen-pregnancy-rate-plummets/

david75

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No they were not better.
Women were a mans property and treated like dirt, sexual assaults were always blamed on the woman’s ‘promiscuousness’ while the man got off scot free.
Children were treated disgracefully, particularly when born out of wedlock, they were second class citizens, because of their illegitimacy.

And that’s without even touching on the mother and baby homes, septic tanks, clergy abuse and the Magdalene laundries.
I thank my lucky stars that I wasn’t alive during those times because the situation was horrible. What that generation went through is nothing to hold dear or aspire to.

Rose tinted glasses or what.

All of the above seem to be like a golden age in the minds of some people. ‘Let’s go back to that time’. And they’re out there in numbers. It’s baffling if not alarming.

2wsxcde3

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Children were treated disgracefully, particularly when born out of wedlock, they were second class citizens, because of their illegitimacy.

Its a great Ireland now if you only follow the Medias propaganda. Things like the following get very little coverage:

Tusla failed to report 800 allegations of child sexual abuse
Over 800 allegations all relating to child sexual abuse in Laois and Offaly lay dormant in an office in Portlaoise for years — and were only discovered by a Tusla worker in 2015. As a result of this, hundreds of children who alleged they were sexually abused were left in “dangerous and potentially violent situations”
(Source: https://www.buzz.ie/news/tusla-failed-to-report-800-allegations-of-child-sexual-abuse-225107 )

Best not to talk too much about these children. It might detract from the medias propaganda against the dark days of the Catholic church. We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

david75

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its a great Ireland now if you only follow the Medias propaganda. Things like the following get very little coverage:

Tusla failed to report 800 allegations of child sexual abuse
Over 800 allegations all relating to child sexual abuse in Laois and Offaly lay dormant in an office in Portlaoise for years — and were only discovered by a Tusla worker in 2015. As a result of this, hundreds of children who alleged they were sexually abused were left in “dangerous and potentially violent situations”
(Source: https://www.buzz.ie/news/tusla-failed-to-report-800-allegations-of-child-sexual-abuse-225107 )

Best not to talk too much about these children. It might detract from the medias propaganda against the dark days of the Catholic church. We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

It wasn’t better. It was worse on every front. We didn’t have media covering any of it nor any organisations keeping records and investigating all these areas as we do now.
The past is immutable. You can view it through all the rose tinted glasses you like but Ireland’s past is horrific and shameful on every front you mentioned. Particularly as it relates to the church and it’s total grip on every aspect of our society back then. So yes, it is the churches fault.

Zubeneschamali

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

Suicide used to be a mortal sin and strongly denied by everyone in every case.

It is still probably under-reported - the official number of suicides by driving a car fast straight into an obstacle without braking or skidding and no seatbelt is zero, even though suicide is a bigger killer now than road accidents in general, and many such accidents happen every year.

2wsxcde3

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its a great Ireland now if you only follow the Medias propaganda. Things like the following get very little coverage:

Tusla failed to report 800 allegations of child sexual abuse
Over 800 allegations all relating to child sexual abuse in Laois and Offaly lay dormant in an office in Portlaoise for years — and were only discovered by a Tusla worker in 2015. As a result of this, hundreds of children who alleged they were sexually abused were left in “dangerous and potentially violent situations”
(Source: https://www.buzz.ie/news/tusla-failed-to-report-800-allegations-of-child-sexual-abuse-225107 )

Best not to talk too much about these children. It might detract from the medias propaganda against the dark days of the Catholic church. We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

We have a much more open society now, where thankfully people are not afraid to speak about their issues.
All those things you mention are just spoken about & reported more now.
People are not willing to just hide problems under the carpet anymore.

2wsxcde3

bubblypop wrote: »

We have a much more open society now, where thankfully people are not afraid to speak about their issues.

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

bubblypop wrote: »

All those things you mention are just spoken about & reported more now.

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

SusieBlue

Sorry but this is after getting ridiculous. A politicians comments on Islam has nothing to do with the referendum.
Stop deflecting, it’s seriously annoying.

ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

What does a politician expect to happen when they talk nonsense? and not for the first time in his case.

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Yet again, here we have people mindlessly repeating anti-Catholic propaganda they've been fed by the media without actually doing their own research:

Teenage pregnancies decline as funding for sex education is cut
The state’s efforts to teach adolescents about sex and make access to contraceptives easier may have encouraged risky behaviour rather than curbed it, the research suggests.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-education-funding-cuts-drive-decline-in-teenage-pregnancies-n67v6mnzr )

You know as well as anyone that thousands of women and girls passed through the doors of those places; 30,000 by some estimates, many of whom never left. And we have statements from women who were around at the time, such as Philomena Lee who herself stated that she had no idea that she was pregnant, had no idea how you got pregnant, and wasn't even entirely sure what 'pregnant' was.

You're either deluded or lying.

Zubeneschamali

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

Well, that's me voting to keep the 8th amendment, so! After all, if a FG councillor can't be a racist in public anymore, we must obviously protect the unborn!

Do I have that right?

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

I don't know why you're referring to articles about STIs when the poster you were replying to was talking teenage pregnancies.

The number of teenagers becoming pregnant has fallen dramatically in the last few decades. In 2013 the rate was its lowest in 50 years, and the numbers have dropped further since.

And, to bring us back on topic, the number of teenagers going to Britain for an abortion has also dropped. As I mentioned earlier.

If you want to reduce or prevent abortions, it's clear that reducing the number of crisis pregnancies is the way to go.

Zubeneschamali

NuMarvel wrote: »

If you want to reduce or prevent abortions, it's clear that reducing the number of crisis pregnancies is the way to go.

But what about bigoted FG councillors who are being oppressed on Twitter?

2wsxcde3

NuMarvel wrote: »

If you want to reduce or prevent abortions, it's clear that reducing the number of crisis pregnancies is the way to go.

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in abortion.

uptherebels

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

You don't believe that years ago in conservative Catholic Ireland where suicide and unplanned pregnancies were sins that these things may have been under reported?

As for someone who routinely ignores being asked to provide evidence of their claims, I feel this quote is appropriate

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

You don't need a link for the obvious.

Call me Al

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in abortion.

Well then you should also appreciate that the past approach of giving zero or inadequate sex education to teenagers failed miserably in reducing the numbers of teenage pregnancies.

If history teaches us anything it is that kids are going to experiment,

NuMarvel

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But what about bigoted FG councillors who are being oppressed on Twitter?

It's all Tusla's fault or something. :pac:

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in barring access to abortion.

Fixed that for you.

2wsxcde3

uptherebels wrote: »

You don't believe that years ago in conservative Catholic Ireland where suicide and unplanned pregnancies were sins that these things may have been under reported?

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

blanch152

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in abortion.

Do you support wider access to contraception then? All forms, including the morning-after pill? Do you support better sex education for children at a younger age? Do you believe that all contraception should be available free whether or not you have a medical card?

All of those measures are necessary to reduce crisis pregnancies?

ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

None of that sounds any different to when i was a teenager a long time ago.

the referendum is not being forced on anybody. the public want a referendum. If it passed it will solve many problems. As will better sex education and easier access to contraception.

JDD

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

I don't think that's true. I honestly don't. If we're talking about Irish media, the Irish Independent doesn't really seem to have opinion pieces at all on controversial subjects such as abortion or teenage pregnancy or even the same sex marriage referendum. They seem to concentrate more on hard luck stories, tragic accidents, local news and the Irish celebrity scene.

The Irish Times has definitely got an agenda, that's for sure. But there readership is small in overall terms and mainly aimed at liberal base. Even they engage Breda O'Brien and John Waters on opinion pieces to present a bit of balance.

Other papers such as the Irish Sun and the Irish Daily Mail most definitely present a conservative viewpoint, reflecting the position of their owner.

I can't talk about RTE, because generally I don't watch it nor listen to RTE radio. But I can't think about any specific programming aimed at teens that encourages them to engage in sexual activity before they are ready.

If you're talking about media with teens, their main influence is social media. That's definitely a challenge that we as a society need to grapple with, not only with the exposure to teens (and pre-teens) to inappropriate sexual material but the potential for abuse and bullying.

My view is that if a teen comes from a conservative religious family, and chooses to wait to have sex with someone they are in a long term relationship with or until they're married, they tend to surround themselves with like minded people. Conversely, social media enables them to meet like minded people.

If Irish teens are saying that current society (generally meaning their own social group) are pressuring them into doing things, including sexual activity but also drinking, smoking, experimenting with drugs etc., well, that's been the story since the dawn of time right? I don't see any studies out there that show that even a significant minority of people who engaged in extra marital sex regret that decision. I also don't see any studies saying that those adults who engaged in sexual activity before the age of 20 regret that decision. I'd like to see a study of my parents generation, who grew up during your so called Golden Age of Ireland to see if a significant minority or even majority of them felt that they were pressurized by Irish society in the 50's/60's/70's to behave a certain way sexually, and whether that had any long term effects on their own mental health.

My parents are in their 70's. My father is a catholic social conservative, but even he has said on many occasions that he's so glad I grew up in 90's when Ireland was opening up, rather than in my mother's generation. Clearly my mother thinks this also. He was even happy for me to go to CofI secondary school so that I wouldn't be subject to the doctrination of the past.

mrkiscool2

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

Okay. We've known that for a while. We can have better sex education so there is less need for abortion and still have safe and legal access to abortion for women in Ireland. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

The statistics clearly show that the number and rate of teenage pregnancies has been dropping year on year for the last 15 years and is the lowest it's been in decades.

I get that you want to make it look like the referendum is the result of “a liberal media bias!!” but maybe you should pick an example where the outcome is the exact opposite of what you’re claiming the media is doing.

JDD

Teenage crisis pregnancies are only one aspect of the debate though 2wsxcde3.

How to you propose to deal with crisis pregnancies that occur to older married women?

2wsxcde3

How come the media isn't reporting on this story:

Irish News Outlets Forced to Withdraw ‘Fake’ Poll Finding 75% of Doctors Support Abortion
The Journal.ie and the Irish Times – two of Ireland’s largest media organizations – have been forced to pull what appears to be a fabricated story about a poll that claimed 75 percent of Irish doctors support repealing Ireland’s pro-life Eighth Amendment and allowing abortions unrestricted up to 12 weeks gestation. The Irish Examiner also led with the story
(Source: http://www.breitbart.com/abortion/2018/02/12/irish-news-outlets-forced-to-withdraw-fake-poll-finding-75-of-doctors-support-abortion/ )

If the pro-life side did this we'd never hear the end of it. Is a story about 3 of Irelands largest news outlets publishing a fake poll not news worthy?

pilly

2wsxcde3 wrote:

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

Better for whom? For men? Because it certainly wasn't better for women. I'd much rather an STI than to be locked up for having sex.

mrkiscool2

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

How come the media isn't reporting on this story:

Irish News Outlets Forced to Withdraw ‘Fake’ Poll Finding 75% of Doctors Support Abortion
The Journal.ie and the Irish Times – two of Ireland’s largest media organizations – have been forced to pull what appears to be a fabricated story about a poll that claimed 75 percent of Irish doctors support repealing Ireland’s pro-life Eighth Amendment and allowing abortions unrestricted up to 12 weeks gestation. The Irish Examiner also led with the story
(Source: http://www.breitbart.com/abortion/2018/02/12/irish-news-outlets-forced-to-withdraw-fake-poll-finding-75-of-doctors-support-abortion/ )

If the pro-life side did this we'd never hear the end of it. Is a story about 3 of Irelands largest news outlets publishing a fake poll not news worthy?

Firstly, never use Breitbart as a source. They have a clear anti-choice narrative. Secondly, just because there is no way to accurately verify who the respondents to this poll was doesn't automatically mean that doctors don't support abortion to 12 weeks. Also, they didn't make up the story. 75% of respondents claimed they were a doctor and said that they supported abortion to 12 weeks. Pretty much a non story to be honest. Should they have been more diligent in their research? Sure, but it doesn't prove anything either way.

JDD

Irish News Outlets Forced to Withdraw ‘Fake’ Poll Finding 75% of Doctors Support Abortion

Okay, I refuse to click on Breitbart for many reasons. A quick google shows pro-life websites repeating the article from Breitbart. Is there any independent website confirming this? I've searched in the The Journal, The Irish Times and the Examiner search engines and there's no reference to a poll or to the withdrawal of one. It's not that I don't believe it, if it's true it's very sloppy reporting. But I'll need to see reproduction of the accusation from somewhere other than a cut and paste from Breitbart.

pilly

2wsxcde3 wrote:

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

Many posters (including yourself!) have provided you with links that disprove your statement about teen pregnancies and you ignore them.

What exactly is the point in giving you proof?

Timberrrrrrrr

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.



That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

Is watching compulsory? I never watch the news i get my information from various sources online.

pilly

2wsxcde3 wrote:

If the pro-life side did this we'd never hear the end of it. Is a story about 3 of Irelands largest news outlets publishing a fake poll not news worthy?

Breitbart reported it. That's surely your favourite media, what's the problem?

blanch152

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

There are a few strange conclusions in that piece. First, take this quote "Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer". If you wait until you are 42 to have sex, you are hardly likely to say you wished you had waited longer, in fact, the opposite is more likely.

Secondly, "young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy", so the conclusion is that those with less education about sex and those with little access to contraception are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy. Well, excuse me if I am not a bit surprised.

Thirdly, they are more likely "to contract a sexually-transmitted disease". Well, they are stating the bleeding obvious, the earlier you start, the more sex you are likely to have, the more likely you are to contract a disease.

At the end of the day, the Crisis Pregnancy Agency have to justify their existence, so it is a combination of the blatantly obvious and they would say that, wouldn't they?

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

How come the media isn't reporting on this story:

I have another story I bet they won't report on:

Boards.ie user tears through pro life red herring quota in a single afternoon.

Pro life campaigners were left stunned today when Boards.ie user "2wsxcde3" used up the side's entire allowance of red herrings in a single afternoon. A spokesperson for the PLC and the Iona Institute declined to comment, but David Quinn could be heard sobbing loudly in the background. It is understood that No campaigners had intended to save these red herrings for later on in the campaign.

In a discussion about the upcoming referendum on Boards, user "2wsxcde3" (real name unknown) made a number of bizarre claims, all seemingly unrelated to the referendum, including a reference to a comments made by a FG local councillor about Islam. When contacted, the politician would only say "What the hell is a "2wsxcde3"??"

2wsxcde3

JDD wrote: »

Okay, I refuse to click on Breitbart for many reasons. A quick google shows pro-life websites repeating the article from Breitbart. Is there any independent website confirming this? I've searched in the The Journal, The Irish Times and the Examiner search engines and there's no reference to a poll or to the withdrawal of one. It's not that I don't believe it, if it's true it's very sloppy reporting. But I'll need to see reproduction of the accusation from somewhere other than a cut and paste from Breitbart.

Ok, here is the Irish Examiner still having the fake poll up and trying to justify it even though you or I (presumably not doctors) could have voted in the poll. A child could have voted in the poll:

75% of doctors support 12-week access to abortion
(Source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html )

And here are Irelands GPs openly criticizing Simon Harries proposed GP-led abortion service:

GPs 'alarmed' at minister's plans for abortion service
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/gps-alarmed-at-ministers-plans-for-abortion-service-36572022.html )

Something not jiving between the two stories.