The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

david75

Great stuff in the times. Facts and explanations of everything in and around the referendum and our history on it.

https://t.co/b12qVEXGx6?amp=1

Infini

January wrote: »

This. If she was marching with an inflammatory sign at the March today then I'd take it that she was just a **** stirrer but the fact she's actively volunteering for the anti choice side and not matching with signs tells a lot.

Wonder where she fits on this list!



Its funny because she would probably fit the bill of the emotional muppet who tries shocking people with pic's of dead fetus's etc to "win" their argument and viewpoint which personally has discredited their entire viewpoint and arguments in my opinion. He'll the whole "support the 8th" side has actually further put me off by throwing "emotional" billboard signs out before the referendum date has even been announced. All people like that do is harden my conviction further.

I'm honestly voting repeal because the way I see it abortion is a medical issue and needs to be only dealt by those who are involved. Those who support the 8th I can respect they might believe they're saving lives but I honestly believe the constitution is wholly the wrong forum for this sort of thing and that it was pushed through by a largely discredited religious lobby back in the 80's.

splinter65

david75 wrote: »

As with the fascist placards being handed out by the guy at the Repeal march the other night, it’s simply to make Repeal look bad any way at all possible.

So if they’re resorting to such pathetic and transparent tactics you know they’re on the ropes and desperate.

The public aren’t stupid. It’s treating them like they are that’ll lose it as it lost it for them in marref

I don’t know how you could describe the crowd at the rally today desperate or on the ropes Dav, unless you desperately wanted to see it like that?
If you only ever mix with other people with the same opinion as you then it probably comes as a shock that so many others don’t agree with you and feel differently.
There was a 60% turnout for the SSM. Referendum and nearly 40% of those voted against SSM.
That’s a lot of people unhappy that SSM is legal.
You seem to think that there are a few thousand really old cranky people anti abortion.
That’s not the case at all.

actaphobia

There were some attractive women in my neighborhood today, they knocked on my door and had leaflets, but I didn't answer. They were quite persistent.

Have no idea whether their were pro-life or choice, but I hate having such conversations on the door steps.

Nettle Soup

Not repealing the 8th would be very mean spirited. It would be the last sting of a dying church perhaps but it would be morally wrong to do that to young women in Ireland.

I just hope people do some critical thinking on it instead of letting religious leaders or their parents decide for them.

Bannasidhe

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t know how you could describe the crowd at the rally today desperate or on the ropes Dav, unless you desperately wanted to see it like that?
If you only ever mix with other people with the same opinion as you then it probably comes as a shock that so many others don’t agree with you and feel differently.
There was a 60% turnout for the SSM. Referendum and nearly 40% of those voted against SSM.
That’s a lot of people unhappy that SSM is legal.
You seem to think that there are a few thousand really old cranky people anti abortion.
That’s not the case at all.

It was 60.5% turnout.
62% voted yes - or 1,201,607 people.
38% voted no - or 734,300
Giving a majority of 467,307. Given that you like to round things off shall we call that half a million?

That's a pretty decisive victory.

It was the highest turnout for a Referendum vote since 1995's Dissolution of Marriage Ref (62.1%), which was less than 1992's Abortion related Ref (Right to travel/Suicide/Information etc) at 68.2/1%.
Between 1995 and 2015 there were 19 referenda - with turnouts of between 29.2% (Bail 1996) and 59.9% (Citizenship 2004)

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/lrsnotes/Election_Turnout_FINAL_28_Jan2016_180434.pdf

I think the people who are in for a shock are the ones who think old Ireland still exists. They need to take a long hard look at the country around them and realise that Ireland is dead and gone.

STB.

Rezident wrote: »

Why should a baby termination "service" be available in Ireland because it's 2018? How can you justify killing the only people on the planet that are innocent? If abortion without shame was possible then the pro-abortion lobby would at least be able to call themselves 'pro-abortion' but even they can't use the word, they have to go with the misleading title of 'pro-choice', that's a sign that they are hiding something.

Abortion is obviously wrong, no reasonable person would want someone they loved to go through an abortion. You know that some babies survive the abortion, and must be left to die of neglect, it's called 'comfort care'.

And as for the dead babies that you de-humanise as if they are some pest to be removed by a "service", what about them? Do you just not think about them? Pretend that they are not human? How do you do it?

I just want you to know that I was on the fence but your self righteous, judgemental attitude has moved me to a pro choice stance.

Thanks

david75

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t know how you could describe the crowd at the rally today desperate or on the ropes Dav, unless you desperately wanted to see it like that?
If you only ever mix with other people with the same opinion as you then it probably comes as a shock that so many others don’t agree with you and feel differently.
There was a 60% turnout for the SSM. Referendum and nearly 40% of those voted against SSM.
That’s a lot of people unhappy that SSM is legal.
You seem to think that there are a few thousand really old cranky people anti abortion.
That’s not the case at all.

I didn’t say that about those in attendance today and you know that. I meant those trying really underhanded tactics that I mentioned in my previous post. And those people are involved in the pro life campaign and youth defence.

They’re losing it for themselves by their own stupidity and by assuming everyone is as stupid as them. Here we are talking about it the last few pages. And it’s all over twitter and Facebook. They’re literally trying to pull a fast one and everyone is aware. So that’s destroying trust in the plc.
I think you’re under playing and being disengenuous about marriage equality.
It wasn’t 40%. It was 32% against was it not? We won that one by a landslide.
Here we are three years later. And the sky is where we left it. No babies have been adopted to abuse them. Nobody’s married their dog or their sister etc etc

And you’re right. There are people out there still obviously unhappy about that.
Can I ask how it affects them at all? Three years later? Being angry cos other people can be equal and recognised as equal under our nations laws and on to love each other ?

It’s a mean spirited joyless and probably lonely person that thinks like that. But as you said. They’re out there.

Bonniedog

Oldtree wrote: »

Workers solidarity claiming 7,000 at rally. One has to wonder at the disparity in numbers being claimed.

:):):)

It was at least as big as the water charges march in December 2014. Easily 100,000.

Workers Solidarity are small sect of middle class wasters who lionise muggers and junkies as heroes of the revolution. Doubt there is a genuine worker among all their sorry asses

Ultra left is clearly spooked by today's massive turnout. The attempt to destroy the Irish people as a race through abortion and Leo's plans for more cheap labour and LIDL looters might be running into some hiccups.

STB.

[PHP][/PHP]

Deleted User wrote: »

jesus

thats pretty damning stuff

ive a general maxim that people active in campaigning to tell voters what to think are weirdos who presume far too much about their own opinion

but behaviour like uncovered in the last few posts should be of interest to the gardai. profoundly subversive and antidemocratic

shame on any prolifer in this thread who wouldnt disavow it

Pretty shocking alright. Between them and the american based and funded spin, you'll see more of it

Same person on RTE speaking on behalf of the Life Institute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QFiAx0nElY

erica74

Rezident wrote: »

Why should a baby termination "service" be available in Ireland because it's 2018? How can you justify killing the only people on the planet that are innocent? If abortion without shame was possible then the pro-abortion lobby would at least be able to call themselves 'pro-abortion' but even they can't use the word, they have to go with the misleading title of 'pro-choice', that's a sign that they are hiding something.

Abortion is obviously wrong, no reasonable person would want someone they loved to go through an abortion. You know that some babies survive the abortion, and must be left to die of neglect, it's called 'comfort care'.

And as for the dead babies that you de-humanise as if they are some pest to be removed by a "service", what about them? Do you just not think about them? Pretend that they are not human? How do you do it?

We say pro choice because we are PRO CHOICE. We are on the side of EVERY woman having a choice. If you don't want to have an abortion, you won't be forced to have one, you'll have the choice. Do you understand that?

david75

Bonniedog wrote: »

:):):)

It was at least as big as the water charges march in December 2014. Easily 100,000.

Workers Solidarity are small sect of middle class wasters who lionise muggers and junkies as heroes of the revolution. Doubt there is a genuine worker among all their sorry asses

Ultra left is clearly spooked by today's massive turnout. The attempt to destroy the Irish people as a race through abortion and Leo's plans for more cheap labour and LIDL looters might be running into some hiccups.

Laughable. You really believe it was that many people fair enough. It demonstrably wasn’t. And it seems at least 40% of the crowd were minors.
Gardai wouldn’t have even been able to handle that many people either and they estimated about 6k

Regardless a great many of those in attendance were all from overseas and travelled over for it, it seems. Neither them nor the kids can vote.

Bannasidhe

Bonniedog wrote: »

:):):)



Ultra left is clearly spooked by today's massive turnout. The attempt to destroy the Irish people as a race through abortion and Leo's plans for more cheap labour and LIDL looters might be running into some hiccups.

Is this your's by any chance?

Bonniedog

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is this your's by any chance?

I equally despise totalitarians of the left and right. They are mirror images of one another, and indeed were allies from 1939 - 1941 when Hitler came close to victory with the aid of Stalin. Indeed today they espouse an anti Semitism that is close to that rag which you posted.

Ultra left and leftist opportunists like the shinners in this country are a sad joke. They are the most enthusiastic supporters of policies that most impact negatively on the "workers." Useful idiots.

baylah17

Bonniedog wrote: »

Oldtree wrote: »

Workers solidarity claiming 7,000 at rally. One has to wonder at the disparity in numbers being claimed.

:):):)

It was at least as big as the water charges march in December 2014. Easily 100,000.

Workers Solidarity are small sect of middle class wasters who lionise muggers and junkies as heroes of the revolution. Doubt there is a genuine worker among all their sorry asses

Ultra left is clearly spooked by today's massive turnout. The attempt to destroy the Irish people as a race through abortion and Leo's plans for more cheap labour and LIDL looters might be running into some hiccups.

Mummy and Daddy need to revoke your internet privliges
Lol

Bonniedog

david75 wrote: »

Laughable. You really believe it was that many people fair enough. It demonstrably wasn’t. And it seems at least 40% of the crowd were minors.
Gardai wouldn’t have even been able to handle that many people either and they estimated about 6k

Regardless a great many of those in attendance were all from overseas and travelled over for it, it seems. Neither them nor the kids can vote.

You know this how

There were at least 100,000 there. If you want to delude yourself otherwise, I am sure it fits perfectly well with your dysfunctional grasp of reality.

Hoboo

david75 wrote: »

40% of the crowd were minors.......Regardless a great many of those in attendance were all from overseas and travelled over for it, it seems.

Are these facts, have you a source/link please?

Bonniedog

baylah17 wrote: »

Mummy and Daddy need to revoke your internet privliges
Lol

Is that a proposition from Wittgenstein?

And no, he didn't play for Bayern Munich. oh, the never ending fun provided by leftist imbeciles. Worth the entry fee.

Bannasidhe

Bonniedog wrote: »

Is that a proposition from Wittgenstein?

And no, he didn't play for Bayern Munich. oh, the never ending fun provided by leftist imbeciles. Worth the entry fee.

Indeed.
But you are no fun as all you have is empty right wing babble and so many have spouted that rubbish with far greater elan than you.
Perhaps when you have finished venting your spleen we can have a reasoned discussion.

pleas advice

i doubt it

_Dara_

splinter65 wrote: »

What makes you think that they’re not happy with the turn out?

Well, a pro-life acquaintance of mine has a photo of herself at the march today on Facebook right now with #100000 and “with 100,000 amazing Irish people” written on it.

Oldtree

Bonniedog wrote: »

You know this how

There were at least 100,000 there. If you want to delude yourself otherwise, I am sure it fits perfectly well with your dysfunctional grasp of reality.

Well now, well now....

Are you suggesting Rte cannot count to the really big numbers? Their 15,000 is an overestimation imo of the number that were there from the footage and photos I have seen and the length of somthing thin does not indicate the number involved.

In excess of 15,000 people attended the rally at Merrion Square.

There was no official estimate of how many attended the actual march but at one stage it stretched from the city quays to Parnell Square North.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0310/946411-save-eighth-march/

Bonniedog

Merrion Square was full of people while there were still people leaving Parnell Square!

I saw both today's rally and the big water charges rally in December 2014. Todays was bigger.

Will also be bewildering to the numbskulls on the left that many were on both those protests.

Lots of Poles and Africans on rally. Something you never see at leftist hootenannies, Do these people not know that Sorcha and Jason with some 2:2 "social sciences" certificate know what is best for them?

Which lack of understanding of the Irish people is why the ultra left is an insignificant pimple on the arse of Ireland, puppets of the sutherlands and Merkels.

Shinners used to have some insight into that but are now dominated by people who are not republicans and should really just leave before they destroy it. No wonder Jorry the paedophile protector didn't want to resign and leave his life's work in the hands of idiots like McDonald and O'Broin :-)

Bonniedog

Bonniedog wrote: »

Lots of Poles and Africans on rally. Something you never see at leftist hootenannies, Do these people not know that Sorcha and Jason with some 2:2 "social sciences" certificate know what is best for them?

Repeal has cross party support in case you didn't notice. Fine Gael is the most conservative party in the Dail and they have done their best to kick the can down the road for as long as they possibly could. We're only getting a referendum now because they see which direction public opinion is going.

Also I find it interesting that you object to "Sorcha and Jason" supposedly telling others what's best for them, when you are dictating that women must be forced to give birth no matter their circumstances. How very hypocritical.

eviltwin

I wonder how many of the foreign nationals at the march yesterday are eligible to vote.....

dav3

splinter65 wrote: »

What makes you think that they’re not happy with the turn out?

I said "the organisers certainly aren't happy". The organisers of these events are generally unhappy people. Once the cameras are off, it's back to a life of misery, intolerance and hatred.

As one of the last marches before the referendum, they were expecting over 100,000 people in attendance. This morning they've woken up scratching their heads wondering why so many people decided to stay away yesterday.

suicide_circus

I hear you're a racist now father

erica74

RTE say "in excess of 15,000 people" attended. It attracted people from all over the country and "some from overseas". Strange that people would come here from other countries to march against choice.

pilly

Bonniedog wrote:

It was at least as big as the water charges march in December 2014. Easily 100,000.

Wrong

Achasanai

Bonniedog wrote: »

Merrion Square was full of people while there were still people leaving Parnell Square!

I saw both today's rally and the big water charges rally in December 2014. Todays was bigger.

There may have been people leaving Parnell Square, but at 15,000 for the march, there would have been a fairly substantial gap between them and all of ye in Merrion Square.

Bonniedog wrote: »

Lots of Poles and Africans on rally. Something you never see at leftist hootenannies, Do these people not know that Sorcha and Jason with some 2:2 "social sciences" certificate know what is best for them?

How would you know who attends these leftist hootenannies? I assure you there are Poles and Africans in attendance. Because Poles and Africans occupy a vast range of the political spectrum, from extreme left to extreme right, and everywhere in between.

Bonniedog wrote: »

Which lack of understanding of the Irish people is why the ultra left is an insignificant pimple on the arse of Ireland, puppets of the sutherlands and Merkels.

15,000 marching when 100,000 were expected would suggest that the insignificance certainly isn't on the repeal side.

circadian

100,000 people. Catch yourselves on, that's a ridiculous statement.

Oldtree

circadian wrote: »

100,000 people. Catch yourselves on, that's a ridiculous statement.

It smacks of desperation, having seen in reality that the expected public support is not there for a particular belief. A desperation born of seeing a juggernaut of change, for historical attitudes, having already occurred and again comming to this country shortly.

amdublin

It's far from over yet.


It was a positive for the repeal side that there was a lower than expected turnout yesterday. I would say that even the 15000 number is being generous - but hey what do I know I just live near Parnell and see all of the marches that start out from there.
It is also a positive for the pro-choicers that so many in attendance yesterday are small children who don't have vote.


Indications from a lot of the colleges and universities around Ireland are that they are pro-choice campuses. The repeal side really need all those students to come #hometovote


Those marches however still show how tight of a grip the Catholic church still has over a lot of the country people that they could rustle up 15000 on to the coaches and up to Dublin

Nettle Soup

circadian wrote: »

100,000 people. Catch yourselves on, that's a ridiculous statement.

There is no way Ireland has that many busy bodies?

paw patrol

amdublin wrote: »

It's far from over yet.


It was a positive for the repeal side that there was a lower than expected turnout yesterday. I would say that even the 15000 number is being generous - but hey what do I know I just live near Parnell and see all of the marches that start out from there.
It is also a positive for the pro-choicers that so many in attendance yesterday are small children who don't have vote.


Indications from a lot of the colleges and universities around Ireland are that they are pro-choice campuses. The repeal side really need all those students to come #hometovote


Those marches however still show how tight of a grip the Catholic church still has over a lot of the country people that they could rustle up 15000 on to the coaches and up to Dublin

there were a lot more than 15000 there.
anyone who says otherwise is lying or has a bias.

secondly that catholic church stuff is bull**** , many people who are pro life aren't involved in the church. Some are. Many aren't.
The Catholics did it mantra it is a nonsensical as the Russians did it regarding Trumps election.

Sofiztikated

paw patrol wrote: »

there were a lot more less than 15000 there.
anyone who says otherwise is lying or has a bias.

Works both ways.

_Dara_

amdublin wrote: »

It's far from over yet.


It was a positive for the repeal side that there was a lower than expected turnout yesterday. I would say that even the 15000 number is being generous - but hey what do I know I just live near Parnell and see all of the marches that start out from there.
It is also a positive for the pro-choicers that so many in attendance yesterday are small children who don't have vote.


Indications from a lot of the colleges and universities around Ireland are that they are pro-choice campuses. The repeal side really need all those students to come #hometovote


Those marches however still show how tight of a grip the Catholic church still has over a lot of the country people that they could rustle up 15000 on to the coaches and up to Dublin

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with whole campuses being declared as one thing or another. I say that as a pro-choicer. Nobody on any campus should feel they have to suppress their views if it’s not seen as the “campus view.”

Reminds me of a class rep we had in college who sent an email to the entire class admonishing them for the poor turnout from the class at some protest or other. She actually said she was ashamed of us. The next day, she wrote a grovelling apology email so I’d say she had a full inbox of emails telling her where to go.

Oldtree

amdublin wrote: »

It's far from over yet.

It was a positive for the repeal side that there was a lower than expected turnout yesterday. I would say that even the 15000 number is being generous - but hey what do I know I just live near Parnell and see all of the marches that start out from there. It is also a positive for the pro-choicers that so many in attendance yesterday are small children who don't have vote.

Indications from a lot of the colleges and universities around Ireland are that they are pro-choice campuses. The repeal side really need all those students to come #hometovote

Those marches however still show how tight of a grip the Catholic church still has over a lot of the country people that they could rustle up 15000 on to the coaches and up to Dublin

I'm not suggesting for one minute that anyone become complacent about a referendum, because of a poor turnout at an organised March.

Anyone that does not vote or does nothing, acquiesces to, and are not innocent of, the result of the upcoming referendum.

amdublin

_Dara_ wrote: »

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with whole campuses being declared as one thing or another. I say that as a pro-choicer. Nobody on any campus should feel they have to suppress their views if it’s not seen as the “campus view.”

Reminds me of a class rep we had in college who sent an email to the entire class admonishing them for the poor turnout from the class at some protest or other. She actually said she was ashamed of us. The next day, she wrote a grovelling apology email so I’d say she had a full inbox of emails telling her where to go.

I hear you. I think it's fine "declaring" as in, we had a vote and the majority voted pro-choice.
But there should still be the place for everyone to express their views, without suppression.

eviltwin

I was in town yesterday. What stuck me was the age profile of those on the march, most I saw were over 65.
The age profile on the March for Choice was the opposite, mostly under 40.

I don't know how things will go in May but even if the referendum is defeated it's just a matter of time before we have abortion here. It's deluded to think otherwise.

amdublin

paw patrol wrote: »

secondly that catholic church stuff is bull**** , many people who are pro life aren't involved in the church. Some are. Many aren't.
The Catholics did it mantra it is a nonsensical as the Russians did it regarding Trumps election.

Yeah I am just basing it what I saw...a lot of priests and nuns, a lot of people carrying signs indicating they were part of a religions associations/group, and some statues (effigies??) I saw being carried.


Strangely enough I also heard some (would I go as far as saying a lot?) of American accents. I am thinking they don't have the vote too hopefully.

_Dara_

eviltwin wrote: »

I was in town yesterday. What stuck me was the age profile of those on the march, most I saw were over 65.
The age profile on the March for Choice was the opposite, mostly under 40.

I don't know how things will go in May but even if the referendum is defeated it's just a matter of time before we have abortion here. It's deluded to think otherwise.

Makes me think it will be very close this time around. Over 65s are among the best age groups for voting. But it makes me hopeful for the future.

I hope the MarRef results don’t make people complacent. This is a more contentious issue.

Nettle Soup

eviltwin wrote: »

I was in town yesterday. What stuck me was the age profile of those on the march, most I saw were over 65.
The age profile on the March for Choice was the opposite, mostly under 40.

I don't know how things will go in May but even if the referendum is defeated it's just a matter of time before we have abortion here. It's deluded to think otherwise.

Yep I think you are spot on. Again its an aging Roman church influence.

paw patrol

amdublin wrote: »

Yeah I am just basing it what I saw...a lot of priests and nuns, a lot of people carrying signs indicating they were part of a religions associations/group, and some statues (effigies??) I saw being carried.


Strangely enough I also heard some (would I go as far as saying a lot?) of American accents. I am thinking they don't have the vote too hopefully.

i passed the march on oConnell STreet and I disagree with your synopsis of the make-up - I'm not saying those people didn't exist , they did. But it was quite a varied selection of people..

Guess since we both aren't lying , it proves it was a big march and we saw different sections.

amdublin

paw patrol wrote: »

i passed the march on oConnell STreet and I disagree with your synopsis of the make-up - I'm not saying those people didn't exist , they did. But it was quite a varied selection of people..

Guess since we both aren't lying , it proves it was a big march and we saw different sections.

Lol. Umm no.

Oldtree

paw patrol wrote: »

i passed the march on oConnell STreet and I disagree with your synopsis of the make-up - I'm not saying those people didn't exist , they did. But it was quite a varied selection of people..

Guess since we both aren't lying , it proves it was a big march and we saw different sections.

When you say big, have you an attendance figure in mind, or are you just "big upping" the March?

Crea

Look even at 15,000 it was a big March. Let's not think all is well just because pro-life are giving a different number. The notion that all students are pro-choice just because it's a pro-choice campus is ridiculous too.
Now is not the time to be smug and gloating - it passes people off and dilutes the message.
This is too important.
#Repeal

PopePalpatine

Nettle Soup wrote: »

There is no way Ireland has that many busy bodies?

Just over 734,000 voted against marriage equality, they haven't gone away you know.

erica74 wrote: »

RTE say "in excess of 15,000 people" attended. It attracted people from all over the country and "some from overseas". Strange that people would come here from other countries to march against choice.

Not if you're aware of Ireland's historical position as the "crown jewel" of the pro-life movement. I remember EWTN (a reactionary/ultra-conservative Catholic TV station based in the USA) doing some sort of "emergency report" featuring many prominent Irish pro-lifers in the run up to the enactment of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.

Oldtree

Crea wrote: »

Look even at 15,000 it was a big March. Let's not think all is well just because pro-life are giving a different number. The notion that all students are pro-choice just because it's a pro-choice campus is ridiculous too.
Now is not the time to be smug and gloating - it passes people off and dilutes the message.
This is too important.
#Repeal

I don't think anyone is being smug or gloating and I hope not complacent. But organisers of the march are splashing 100,000 marchers all over the media and that should be met with the correction such a claim deserves at every juncture, for this important issue. Optics are important as any politician will tell you.

The supposed 15,000 is big for a county football match, not for a referendum rally that was cast as bring the biggest event ahead of the referendum.

Rte still has tens of thousands as it's headline while saying 15,000 + attended.

HandsomeBob

eviltwin wrote: »

I was in town yesterday. What stuck me was the age profile of those on the march, most I saw were over 65.
The age profile on the March for Choice was the opposite, mostly under 40.

I don't know how things will go in May but even if the referendum is defeated it's just a matter of time before we have abortion here. It's deluded to think otherwise.

If it's defeated how long do you think it will take for another vote to happen?