The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

david75

applehunter wrote: »

I must have missed the memo.

I must excuse myself. Sure what would doctors dealing with pregnant women know? They haven't lived in the future.

All hail "the most clued in, educated, progressive, and sound youth in all Europe."

What party do they represent?

Youth defence are claiming they’re doctors now?

Oh wait. That’s probably exactly what they’re claiming.


You’re excused.

Oldtree

Fred Swanson wrote: »

As a man I would have severe problems accessing information on vasectomies in Ireland. Every sperm is sacred.

Here you go bruv, every sperm is blessed

http://vasectomyireland.ie/

applehunter

Oldtree wrote: »

Doctors are not obliged to give information on abortion in Ireland and have been in a legal quandary for many years. The referendum will sort that out for them, allowing them to provide a complete medical service where appropriate.

This referendum could legalise killing our unborn.

You call this the "complete medical service"

#euphomism.

david75

Every sperm is sacred? Seriously?

I’ve some consecrated socks and maybe a t shirt if you’re stuck?

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

This referendum could legalise killing our unborn.

You call this the "complete medical service"

#euphomism.

Yes, it will allow for a complete medical care scheme for Irish women including terminations.

#what's with the hash tag business?

Oldtree

david75 wrote: »

Every sperm is sacred? Seriously?

I’ve some consecrated socks and maybe a t shirt if you’re stuck?

I think he is referring to the life of Brian tune, I was!

david75

Oldtree wrote: »

I think he is referring to the life of Brian tune, I was!

Ah man. Only saying last night we need to watch that again. And withnail. It’s been too long

applehunter

Oldtree wrote: »

Yes, it will allow for a complete medical care scheme for Irish women including terminations.

#what's with the hash tag business?

It's from twitter.

It is supposed to crystallize an opinion. That is what I as trying to do anyway. I'm not on twitter but I tune in and watch from the gallery.

i'm a dinosaur compared with the "most clued in, educated, progressive, and sound youth in all Europe"

#Couldn't resist:pac:

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

It's from twitter.

It is supposed to crystallize an opinion. That is what I as trying to do anyway. I'm not on twitter but I tune in and watch from the gallery.

i'm a dinosaur compared with the "most clued in, educated, progressive, and sound youth in all Europe"

#Couldn't resist:pac:

The twitter machine dosn't work out this way

applehunter

Oldtree wrote: »

The twitter machine dosn't work out this way

Thank God for Boards.:)

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

Thank God for Boards.:)

Thank Boards for Boards

david75

applehunter wrote: »

It's from twitter.

It is supposed to crystallize an opinion. That is what I as trying to do anyway. I'm not on twitter but I tune in and watch from the gallery.

i'm a dinosaur compared with the "most clued in, educated, progressive, and sound youth in all Europe"

#Couldn't resist:pac:

Hey go easy on dinosaurs!!
Their remains are kinda important. Their opinions, not so much. We’d be dinner for them. They often ate their young too. Crazy lizards.

applehunter

eviltwin wrote: »

I brought my son to the pro choice march last year, he's 8. He doesn't understand abortion but he knew we were marching so women could have agency over their own body, he understands that concept well. It's up to each parent to decide what their child needs to know and every child is different. I don't think taking a child to any march regardless of your "side" is wrong, I just know I'd rather my kids marched with those who are now judgemental, open minded and supportive.

It is definitely something to consider.

I think as kids they will remember the whole pageantry of the occasion and the music etc.

I remember vividly in the 80s being "around" when my father was involved with the Progressive Democrats when they were a real growing party under O'Malley. I couldn't tell you a thing about their policies at that time but the blues and yellows of the various hats and flags are etched in my memory.

PD's would probably be a "repeal" party as proposed if they were still in involved in politics today.

It makes for some interesting conversations with my father recently.

He will be voting for repeal as of now.

david75

The pro life rally last year right in front of the dail was almost entirely elderly people and their grandkids. Listening to that American woman that claims she survived an abortion and ‘climbed out of the bucket.’ Her exact words.

Wonderful stuff for little kids to be listening to. Here. Have a pro life balloon.

applehunter

david75 wrote: »

The pro life rally last year right in front of the dail was almost entirely elderly people and their grandkids. Listening to that American woman that claims she survived an abortion and ‘climbed out of the bucket.’ Her exact words.

Wonderful stuff for little kids to be listening to. Here. Have a pro life ballon.

Sound like the premise for a great Superhero movie.

Have Marvel the rights?

Now there is a movie that would break box office records.

But of course Hollywood would block such a movie being made.

david75

applehunter wrote: »

Sound like the premise for a great Superhero movie.

Have Marvel the rights?

Now there is a movie that would break box office records.

But of course Hollywood would block such a movie being made.

Wrong franchise. Pro life campaign are living between Narnia and Jurassic Park. Music provided by la la land.

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

Sound like the premise for a great Superhero movie.

Have Marvel the rights?

Now there is a movie that would break box office records.

But of course Hollywood would block such a movie being made.

More like some B horror movie from the eighties.
"It came from the bucket!"

applehunter

If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

applehunter

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Does that include in utero?

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

Levity is perhaps out of place, but it does give a short recess, in what is going to be a traumatic time for everybody.

david75

applehunter wrote: »

If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

Spares us your tears. Crocodiles can’t vote in Ireland either.

They’re from a totally different part of the world in fact! Mad coincidence.

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

Does that include in utero?

Is that in your view, from insemination on?

applehunter

Oldtree wrote: »

Is that in your view, from insemination on?

I believe life starts at conception.

Those IONA billbouds are lovely to look at but the horror of one of the posters by the Daniel O'Connell statue on Saturday is undoubtedly more a true reflection of the issue.

Yer Da sells Avon

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception.

Just to be absolutely clear, do you believe that, from the very moment of conception, the foetus is a person, as much a human being as you or I?

A yes/no answer will suffice.

_Dara_

tretorn wrote: »

That was an enormous crowd today and a surprising number of young people.

The media have got it all wrong about the amendment and the public appetite for change, whether this is deliberate or not is hard to know. The media should be objective but they are partisan regarding this issue and when people come together to march you can clearly see how wrong the media is.

It was the same with Brexit and the same with Donald Trump.

Ismisejack wrote: »

The media couldn’t be more bias should they try, so much for impartial news. Ud be forgiven for thinking the pro choice side fund them;)

Actually, I’ve found that RTÉ is much more likely to run pro-life marches as a main news story than pro-choice ones. Reporting of the pro-choice march I attended in 2016 was buried a good bit down the RTÉ News homepage. Not so for the pro-life march this weekend. So lose the victimhood complex.

applehunter

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Just to be absolutely clear, do you believe that, from the very moment of conception, the foetus is a person, as much a human being as you or I?

A yes/no answer will suffice.

"Just to be absolutely clear"

Who do you think out are, Jeremy Clarkson?

Take it that I believe life begins at conception.

Yer Da sells Avon

applehunter wrote: »

"Just to be absolutely clear"

Who do you think out are, Jeremy Clarkson?

Take it that I believe life begins at conception.

No, I don't think I'm Jeremy Clarkson.

And on that bombshell... I'll ask you again. Is that newly implanted clump of cells a person?

applehunter

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

No, I don't think I'm Jeremy Clarkson.

And on that bombshell... I'll ask you again. Is that newly implanted clump of cells a person?

I don't play games.

I believe life begins at conception.

Get out canvassing Hapax. We need you out there on the doorsteps for the repeal movement.

Yer Da sells Avon

applehunter wrote: »

I don't play games.

I believe life begins at conception.

Get out canvassing Hapax. We need you out there on the doorsteps for the repeal movement.

I'm not trying to catch you out. It's a simple question. Is that cluster of cells a person?

applehunter

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

I'm not trying to catch you out. It's a simple question. Is that cluster of cells a person?

Take this yes/no gameshow quiz to the doorsteps.

Please.

Yer Da sells Avon

applehunter wrote: »

Take this yes/no gameshow quiz to the doorsteps.

Please.

Oh well, it was a simple question. No idea why you don't want to answer it.

Edward M

No guarantee the 12 week legislation will pass a dail vote according to the indo, the numbers aren't stacking up, so its down to SF it looks like.
Who'd ever have thought that?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/uncertainty-over-whether-12week-abortion-legislation-will-pass-dil-vote-as-top-tds-refuse-to-disclose-their-views-36694547.html

nice_guy80

Edward M wrote: »

No guarantee the 12 week legislation will pass a dail vote according to the indo, the numbers aren't stacking up, so its down to SF it looks like.
Who'd ever have thought that?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/uncertainty-over-whether-12week-abortion-legislation-will-pass-dil-vote-as-top-tds-refuse-to-disclose-their-views-36694547.html

they don't want to reveal views as it will stop canvasing for the vote
I also hope it is a secret ballet in the Dail chamber

JupiterKid

The anti choice brigade love to roll out the attractive looking young women at the front of their marches. But take a closer look at the demographic when said marches wind up at the Dail or disband and you get a truer picture of those pulling the strings.

baylah17

nice_guy80 wrote: »

they don't want to reveal views as it will stop canvasing for the vote
I also hope it is a secret ballet in the Dail chamber

the Dail cannot have "Secret Ballots", TDs have to vote publicly and their vote is recorded, as it should be.

Will I Am Not

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Oh well, it was a simple question. No idea why you don't want to answer it.

When is the “clump of cells” no longer a clump of cells? Simple question.

JupiterKid

realitykeeper wrote: »

blah, blah, blah. A clout from a Christian Brother never did anyone a bit of harm and all this nonsense about abuses by the Catholic Church is just an excuse not to get up on a Sunday morning and go to mass. Is it any wonder that the slothful are the poorest in society.

Despicable views. Utter contempt for others. Do you know just how many lives were ruined by the twisted ideology of judgemental religious doctrine and the lust for control over the rights of others? Ireland is on the cusp of thanking a step into social normality for the rest of the developed world. Very soon the power of the views of you and your ilk will be considered to the dustbin of history.

swampgas

applehunter wrote: »

Take it that I believe life begins at conception.

Are you also against the morning after pill (MAP), the coil, and the pill?

Do you think IVF is wrong?

Or is it just abortion (when it happens in Ireland) that bothers you?

Yer Da sells Avon

Will I Am Not wrote: »

When is the “clump of cells” no longer a clump of cells? Simple question.

I don't know. See, it's actually really easy to give an honest answer to these questions. When we're talking about a gradual 9-month process, none of us will ever agree on an exact point at which the unborn becomes an actual human being whose right to life matches that of an already-born woman. Suggesting that it happens at the point of conception is no better than suggesting it happens at birth, or some other arbitrary point in between. Which is why I think it's important to be pragmatic and accept that if abortion must happen, it should really happen as early as possible. And I don't think retention of the 8th Amendment is conducive to that.

nozzferrahhtoo

Will I Am Not wrote: »

When is the “clump of cells” no longer a clump of cells? Simple question.

That has been discussed A LOT on this thread so far. But at nearly 10,000 posts on the thread now I can not fault you for not having seen it.

In short though the answer to that question is contextual. It really depends on what differences you are looking for, defining, or consider relevant to the current context as to what answer you give.

In the context of abortion I think we are talking about when a biological mass of cells attains rights. Or more specifically when it stops being any old entity and starts being an entity towards which we can or should hold moral and ethical concern.

And I have argued (at nauseating length some will assure you) that this occurs when the fetus attains the basic faculty of human consciousness/sentience. And I think that because WITHOUT such a faculty I can see no basis for affording any entity, of any kind, moral or ethical concern.

The near totality (usually up around 98%) of abortions done purely by choice (not for medical necessity etc) occur in or before week 16 of gestation. Nothing operating at that point in the process even begins to suggest the fetus has attained the aforementioned faculty.

I hope that answers your question somewhat. If not, feel free to ask questions.

Zubeneschamali

statesaver wrote: »

This is a thread about Repealing the 8th not about the many sins of the Catholic Church.

The 8th IS one of the sins of the Catholic Church.

Every other Christian church in Ireland was opposed to passing it back in 83. It is a piece of Catholic dogma slapped into our Constitution by catholic ideologues as a last measure before they lost their majority.

Zubeneschamali

applehunter wrote: »

This referendum could legalise killing our unborn.

The 8th already made it legal.

By accident, admittedly, but legal all the same.

Zubeneschamali

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Suggesting that it happens at the point of conception is no better than suggesting it happens at birth, or some other arbitrary point in between.

Everyone knows it is not at birth. Babies are often delivered by section before birth, and they are clearly human beings. Birth is just a legal line in the sand.

Nobody really believes it happens at conception either, apart from some real looney tunes who imagine angels handing out tiny souls to single-celled organisms. That's why the pro-lifers put up so little fight when the courts decided the 8th only applies from implantation on.

This is part of why the Citizen's Assembly came up with proposals more radical than any politician was likely to: away from all the screaming and campaigning and insults and gory posters, reasonable people can agree that the current legal regime is wrong, and that a move to a more typical framework like that in Germany is a sensible move.

Will I Am Not

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That has been discussed A LOT on this thread so far. But at nearly 10,000 posts on the thread now I can not fault you for not having seen it.

In short though the answer to that question is contextual. It really depends on what differences you are looking for, defining, or consider relevant to the current context as to what answer you give.

In the context of abortion I think we are talking about when a biological mass of cells attains rights. Or more specifically when it stops being any old entity and starts being an entity towards which we can or should hold moral and ethical concern.

And I have argued (at nauseating length some will assure you) that this occurs when the fetus attains the basic faculty of human consciousness/sentience. And I think that because WITHOUT such a faculty I can see no basis for affording any entity, of any kind, moral or ethical concern.

The near totality (usually up around 98%) of abortions done purely by choice (not for medical necessity etc) occur in or before week 16 of gestation. Nothing operating at that point in the process even begins to suggest the fetus has attained the aforementioned faculty.

I hope that answers your question somewhat. If not, feel free to ask questions.

It seems to me that it’s totally dependent on whether someone plans on seeing it through or not.

My wife miscarried at 9 weeks. She has a tattoo with the date on her leg, she releases a balloon on that date every year. Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

Someone who unwillingly falls pregnant may obviously think it to be just a clump of cells but then would they say the same when they get their first scan pic on a baby they planned for?
The ‘it’s just a clump of cells’ argument is arbitrary.

Zubeneschamali

Will I Am Not wrote: »

The ‘it’s just a clump of cells’ argument is arbitrary.

I have always believed that I am just a clump of cells, and so are you and so is everyone else. What else would I be? A ghost from an invisible dimension somehow controlling a clump of cells by magic, that flies up into the clouds when I "die"?

Ha ha.

Will I Am Not

Will I Am Not wrote: »

It seems to me that it’s totally dependent on whether someone plans on seeing it through or not.

My wife miscarried at 9 weeks. She has a tattoo with the date on her leg, she releases a balloon on that date every year. Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

Someone who unwillingly falls pregnant may obviously think it to be just a clump of cells but then would they say the same when they get their first scan pic on a baby they planned for?
The ‘it’s just a clump of cells’ argument is arbitrary.

then leave it to your wife or the woman who became 'arbitrarily pregnant' to decide

nozzferrahhtoo

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Try telling her it was just a clump of cells and she would probably take your head off.

A few pages back I was explaining to a rather irate and emotional poster that that is in fact what we DO do quite often when treating women who have miscarried.

With that user I was discussing "Swanson's Caring Theory" and the "Meaning of Miscarriage Model", and the many randomized control studies evaluating the differences between people who evaluate the miscarriage as "losing a baby" and those that evaluate it is "losing a pregnancy".

A lot of people build up a narrative of "baby" during a pregnancy. After all, as even Leo one of our countries leaders pointed out "We tend to ask what the name of the baby might be not the name of the fetus". We are a narrative driven species and people can get invested in that narrative as your wife clearly did/has/is.

But when a woman's grief at miscarriage is debilitating or high, we very much do work to remove those narratives and essentially tell her "it was just a clump of cells". We do not do it so crassly or directly, but iteratively and with more empathy. But that is basically what we are doing.

But when it comes to the debate on whether we should allow abortion, we are not longer talking about the narrative each individual might hold. We are talking about the fetus as a general concept, and asking if there is any reason at the level of social morality and law, that we should hold moral and ethical concern for such a fetus. And thus far the answer seems to be a clear and consistent "no".

Loafing Oaf

Edward M wrote: »

No guarantee the 12 week legislation will pass a dail vote according to the indo, the numbers aren't stacking up, so its down to SF it looks like.
Who'd ever have thought that?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/uncertainty-over-whether-12week-abortion-legislation-will-pass-dil-vote-as-top-tds-refuse-to-disclose-their-views-36694547.html

You do realise that newspapers will always strive to make a drama out of a crisis? "If the abortion referendum is approved by the people, it will pass through the Dail no problem." What kind of 'story' is that?

Annasopra

HandsomeBob wrote: »

My concern would be such factors wouldn't be considered.

Brexit is an absolutely huge decision for millions of people. The fact that the vote was so tight hasn't forced another vote.

They dont have a referendum culture in uk like we do so not comparable.

Edward M

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

You do realise that newspapers will always strive to make a drama out of a crisis? "If the abortion referendum is approved by the people, it will pass through the Dail no problem." What kind of 'story' is that?

I thought it was a repeal referendum?