The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

I thought it was a repeal referendum?

Repeal and replace with a clause allowing the dail to legislate. but you knew that already.

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Repeal and replace with a clause allowing the dail to legislate. but you knew that already.

That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

Loafing Oaf

Edward M wrote: »

if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

You know how people say "That's a big if." Well the one in your sentence is like the smallest 'if' in the world...

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

but the 8th will still be repealed.

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but the 8th will still be repealed.

Well, let's see.

ohnonotgmail

Edward M wrote: »

Well, let's see.

If the referendum is passed the 8th will still be repealed irrespective of what happens in the dail afterwards.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bonniedog wrote: »

Is that a proposition from Wittgenstein?

And no, he didn't play for Bayern Munich. oh, the never ending fun provided by leftist imbeciles. Worth the entry fee.

Mod note: Bonniedog, don't post in this thread again.

Buford T. Justice

seamus

Edward M wrote: »

That's true, but what its replaced with is not necessarily a 12 week abortion limit, that is what is likely to be proposed, but if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

That's right. And they'll go back and propose something else.

The POLDPA will continue to apply even after the 8th is repealed. So immediately there will be functionally no change to Ireland's abortion laws or position.

But that's not really the primary focus here. Even if the Dail were to (say) approve abortion for fatal abnormalities, but shoot down a 12-week limit, that would only be possible because the 8th amendment has been repealed.

The goal is repealing the 8th because changing the law is child's play compared to changing the constitution.

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception..

Is conception to you a fertilised egg or an implanted fertilised egg? The reason I was asking is that the morning after pill is already freely available here in Ireland and can be taken up to 5 days after sex. From what I understand it prevents pregnancy of a fertilised egg. Is this an abortion to you?

I am unsure though of the specific end point of the prevention, ie if the map can halt a fertilised egg that is implanted in the womb or halt a fertilised egg before implantation.

Edward M

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If the referendum is passed the 8th will still be repealed irrespective of what happens in the dail afterwards.

Where did I disagree or say otherwise?

goulders

After following this thread for a while I was more confused than ever on which way I might vote.
After talking about the referendum I had an idea which was acceptable among my friends.

I started a new thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851002

Would like to see what others think ??

(hope this ok with MODS)

Zubeneschamali

Edward M wrote: »

if enough TDs don't support it that might not materialise?

If Repeal passes, and then you are one of the TDs that votes down the 12 week legislation, I think it is obvious that you will attract a great deal of attention asking you what you propose instead. After all, the 12 week framework has been well flagged, and will be further publicised by the referendum commission.

And whatever you propose, the Citizen's Assembly, Oireachteas Committee and the Referendum itself are not going to give you anything to hide behind. You are going to own it.

We do not have TDs with the courage for that. They will gripe and then pass the 12 week legislation, telling their constituents they had no choice.

January

goulders wrote: »

After following this thread for a while I was more confused than ever on which way I might vote.
After talking about the referendum I had an idea which was acceptable among my friends.

I started a new thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851002

Would like to see what others think ??

(hope this ok with MODS)

I think it's a great idea in theory. What do their parents think of it?

goulders

January wrote: »

I think it's a great idea in theory. What do their parents think of it?

Parents delighted to think they have a voice, the family can talk about it knowing they each will be heard on voting day.

Oldtree

goulders wrote: »

Parents delighted to think they have a voice, the family can talk about it knowing they each will be heard on voting day.

I don't think it is appropriate as they are under the age for voting for good reasons imo. How far would you take it, to a ten year old as the same rationale could apply.

It's all well and good for the family to discuss and debate and in that context for gran and grandad to arrive at a voting conclusion that way, but no one should give away their vote that was so hard fought to gain.

The very notion is anti democratic as I see it or just gran and grandad afraid to vote as they see fit.

splinter65

January wrote: »

It's possible they have, their version of the alternatives view though, not the actual alternative view.

But you’ve give your child your version of the pro repeal view.
Horses for courses

January

splinter65 wrote: »

But you’ve give your child your version of the pro repeal view.
Horses for courses

That's true but I've also tried to explain to her that some people don't want to change the way things are because they believe a baby is a baby from the very start. I also don't take them on marches (she has asked to come) and only talk about it when asked a question on it.

Edward M

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If Repeal passes, and then you are one of the TDs that votes down the 12 week legislation, I think it is obvious that you will attract a great deal of attention asking you what you propose instead. After all, the 12 week framework has been well flagged, and will be further publicised by the referendum commission.

And whatever you propose, the Citizen's Assembly, Oireachteas Committee and the Referendum itself are not going to give you anything to hide behind. You are going to own it.

We do not have TDs with the courage for that. They will gripe and then pass the 12 week legislation, telling their constituents they had no choice.

It will depend on the constituency breakdown perhaps, the largest population centres might we pass it but the rural ones not maybe, you could end up with a situation where there are more TDs afraid for their seats because of their location and the way the vote went there who might be afraid to back the 12 week proposal.
The eighth may well be repealed overall but still more constituencies not vote for repeal than do.
A quandry could arise then, perhaps.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

david75

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

retro:electro

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception.

That’s fine. If those are your beliefs that’s your prerogative and you are entitled to live your life by your principles.

I don’t think that though. And so why should I live my life arrested by a complete strangers principles?
Repealing will ensure we all have a choice. You don’t have to do what you don’t want to but the ideology you support restricts many women whose principles don’t align with yours.

I doubt you actually give those women and their bodies much thought though apart from pontificating on a forum.

Zubeneschamali

Edward M wrote: »

The eighth may well be repealed overall but still more constituencies not vote for repeal than do..

But again - what exactly are these TDs to do? If they vote down the 12 week legislation, what will they put in its place?

If nothing, if they just say let's keep the PLDPA, defying a national referendum for change, i think their seats will be in worse jeopardy.

NuMarvel

applehunter wrote: »

I believe life starts at conception.

When do you think the right to life should begin? Because it's not presently at conception.

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

That link does not seem to relate to your post - it describes a "Home to Vote" campaign to bring people home to vote FOR repeal.

david75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That link does not seem to relate to your post - it describes a "Home to Vote" campaign to bring people home to vote FOR repeal.

That’s weird. It’s posted on a plc page. I didn’t catch that
Thanks

Bannasidhe

david75 wrote: »

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

It's giving those who are currently abroad an opportunity to determine the kind of Ireland they will return to.

I am of the generation that voted against the 8th and promptly got the hell out of Ireland as what I personally experienced while campaigning for choice convinced me that there was no place in 80s Ireland for anyone who was even slightly liberal in their world view. I wasn't alone. I worked, lived... and played... among people from all parts of the Republic who felt ourselves to be in exile. It says a lot that a generation found Thatcher's Britain more welcoming than our native land.
It's no coincidence that most of us returned after the election of Mary Robinson as we sensed change was in the air. We voted for divorce. We voted for the right to travel and get information. We voted for the Ireland we wanted and now another generation need to know this is their chance.

PLC know that and are afraid.

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

It’s posted on a plc page.

They may want to draw attention to it - there was a similar campaign for SSM and many opponents said it was illegal, or at the least encouraging voters who are ineligible to vote illegally.

Frank Bullitt

david75 wrote: »

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

In fairness, using a bloke who said he was a nurse but was actually a gun runner for you campaign, that smacks of both desperation and stupidity.

Which would be this - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/save-the-8th-campaign-wrongly-described-video-speaker-as-nurse-lrlb6lm2s

January

Gintonious wrote: »

In fairness, using a bloke who said he was a nurse but was actually a gun runner for you campaign, that smacks of both desperation and stupidity.

David is pro repeal. Think he's just getting his wires crossed

JDD

NuMarvel wrote: »

When do you think the right to life should begin? Because it's not presently at conception.

To be fair to the catholic/Christian pro-lifers, they'd be against the morning after pill and IVF, for the very reason that they think a fertilized egg has a soul. The church has always been consistent on that front.

There's no marches against the morning-after pill or IVF for a few reasons. In relation to the morning-after pill, well, that ship has sailed as far as the legislation is concerned. And I suppose from a pragmatic point of view, they might prefer someone to take the morning after pill then go for a termination further along in the pregnancy. Even pro-lifers I'm sure believe there's a scale of wrongdoing here, even if they would never admit it openly.

As for IVF, they know they're on to a losing game. The aim of IVF is to actually conceive a child, something they hold in very high regard. They would look particularly heartless to prevent a childless couple from conceiving. That said, the catholic church have always been against IVF.

david75

January wrote: »

David is pro repeal. Think he's just getting his wires crossed

Smacked my own hand for not bothering to read the article before posting.
It is odd it was posted on plc but then a lot of their campaign is frankly really bizarre. But as a previous poster said it was probably to raise awareness.

pilly

david75 wrote: »

My read on this is it sort of smacks of desperation. They know they don’t have the support to defeat repeal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/11/ireland-abortion-repeal-referendum-home-to-vote-pro-choice-campaign

That doesn't make sense David, this is pro choice campaigners?

Sorry, just read other posters corrected that already.

david75

pilly wrote: »

That doesn't make sense David, this is pro choice campaigners?

See above post.

Hoboo

Can I ask something. If they 8th is repealed, will that give the government the power to legislate on abortion?

Thanks.

NuMarvel

Hoboo wrote: »

Can I ask something. If they 8th is repealed, will that give the government the power to legislate on abortion?

Thanks.

In effect, yes, though technically it's the Oireachtas that legislates, not just the government. A draft of the intended legislation will be published before the end of the month.

ohnonotgmail

Hoboo wrote: »

Can I ask something. If they 8th is repealed, will that give the government the power to legislate on abortion?

Thanks.

that is the point of the referendum.

Grayson

JDD wrote: »

To be fair to the catholic/Christian pro-lifers, they'd be against the morning after pill and IVF, for the very reason that they think a fertilized egg has a soul. The church has always been consistent on that front.

There's no marches against the morning-after pill or IVF for a few reasons. In relation to the morning-after pill, well, that ship has sailed as far as the legislation is concerned. And I suppose from a pragmatic point of view, they might prefer someone to take the morning after pill then go for a termination further along in the pregnancy. Even pro-lifers I'm sure believe there's a scale of wrongdoing here, even if they would never admit it openly.

As for IVF, they know they're on to a losing game. The aim of IVF is to actually conceive a child, something they hold in very high regard. They would look particularly heartless to prevent a childless couple from conceiving. That said, the catholic church have always been against IVF.

To be fair very few pro lifers are pro lifers in the same way the catholic church are.

A lot would allow contraception. Same about the morning after pill. There's many that would allow a termination in the first few weeks.

Most people on both sides of the argument see it as a very nuanced argument with a lot of grey areas. But it's a good tool for pro lifers to turn it into a black and white argument.

Zubeneschamali

Hoboo wrote: »

Can I ask something. If they 8th is repealed, will that give the government the power to legislate on abortion?

The Oireachteas Committee thinks yes. The Citizen's Assembly thinks maybe not, and recommended replacing the 8th with an explicit clause saying the Oireachteas can legislate, and that seems to be the path the Government are taking.

Hoboo

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Oireachteas Committee thinks yes. The Citizen's Assembly thinks maybe not, and recommended replacing the 8th with an explicit clause saying the Oireachteas can legislate, and that seems to be the path the Government are taking.

OK so nothing has been set in stone yet. And going by whats currently on the table, abortion being legalised will therefore up to the government to decide? And depending on what government of the the day, that could go either way?

Cheers.

JDD

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair very few pro lifers are pro lifers in the same way the catholic church are.

A lot would allow contraception. Same about the morning after pill. There's many that would allow a termination in the first few weeks.

Most people on both sides of the argument see it as a very nuanced argument with a lot of grey areas. But it's a good tool for pro lifers to turn it into a black and white argument.

Well, contraception is a different animal. The church is against contraception for a different reason, in that they believe you shouldn't be having sex unless its for procreation purposes.

I'd be sure a lot of older people wouldn't know what the morning after pill actually does. I bet if I asked my Dad whether the morning after pill prevented conception from occurring after sex, or whether it prevented implantation, he probably wouldn't know for sure. Even if he did know, as you say, he's probably fairly comfortable with it.

Pro-lifers can't say the argument is nuanced, because they believe if you open the door a chink you open it to a flood. I've never really got this. I remember having an argument with a friend before the divorce referendum - he was 19, the same as me - when he said he was going to vote no. He said that we'd end up like the UK or the States with every second marriage ending in divorce. Of course, that didn't happen because culturally we are very different to the UK or the States, and our very strict divorce laws have hardly changed in 20 years. And I don't think there's much of a push to change them. So I take all this "oh it'll be a slow creep to allowing abortions to 24 weeks" for what it is. Nonsense.

NuMarvel

Hoboo wrote: »

OK so nothing has been set in stone yet. And going by whats currently on the table, abortion being legalised will therefore up to the government to decide? And depending on what government of the the day, that could go either way?

Cheers.

In reality the legislation that's passed later this year will be our abortion law for the foreseeable future, assuming the 8th is repealed. Politicians won't be in any rush to change it unless there's considerable public support.

CruelCoin

Is there any sign of a commitment to a speedy turnaround if you're seeking an abortion?

Most women don't know they're pregnant before 8 weeks.

Then, take the time for deliberating, getting a doctors appointment, getting referred to a specialist, getting on the waiting list and actually having the procedure done, the 12 week window will sail the majority of women by.

There may soon be legal access to abortion. just not practical access.

.......

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail

CruelCoin wrote: »

Is there any sign of a commitment to a speedy turnaround if you're seeking an abortion?

Most women don't know they're pregnant before 8 weeks.

Then, take the time for deliberating, getting a doctors appointment, getting referred to a specialist, getting on the waiting list and actually having the procedure done, the 12 week window will sail the majority of women by.

There may soon be legal access to abortion. just not practical access.

If a surgical abortion is not required (and before 12 weeks they are generally not required) then it can all be handled by a GP.

January

CruelCoin wrote: »

Is there any sign of a commitment to a speedy turnaround if you're seeking an abortion?

Most women don't know they're pregnant before 8 weeks.

Then, take the time for deliberating, getting a doctors appointment, getting referred to a specialist, getting on the waiting list and actually having the procedure done, the 12 week window will sail the majority of women by.

There may soon be legal access to abortion. just not practical access.

90% of abortions performed before 12 weeks are done using pills. There will be no waiting list, there will be a doctors appt and a prescription given to go to the pharmacist and get the medication, the government are proposing a waiting time, it could be 48/72 hours. In the small number of cases that need surgical abortions there possibly will be a few days wait but that's the same with ERPC's for miscarriages.

ohnonotgmail

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

can we clarify the terminology used here? I thought the use of abortion pills WAS a medical abortion. Something like a D&C is a surgical abortion.

retro:electro

CruelCoin wrote: »

Is there any sign of a commitment to a speedy turnaround if you're seeking an abortion?

Most women don't know they're pregnant before 8 weeks.

Then, take the time for deliberating, getting a doctors appointment, getting referred to a specialist, getting on the waiting list and actually having the procedure done, the 12 week window will sail the majority of women by.

There may soon be legal access to abortion. just not practical access.

Most women? Or some women?
The vast majority of women will have realised they’re pregnant by that stage.

.......

This post has been deleted.

rainbow kirby

anna080 wrote: »

Most women? Or some women?
The vast majority of women will have realised they’re pregnant by that stage.

Yep, 4-6 weeks is fairly standard if your cycle is regular. I found out at 7 weeks with my first son and that was considered late.

Hoboo

NuMarvel wrote: »

Politicians won't be in any rush to change it unless there's considerable public support.

In reality though politicians have often made decisions regardless of public support. The last 10 years alone has proven that.

I'm not a fan of the government holding the cards in this instance.