The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 4:56pm

Experience_day wrote: »

Your quote:

Last question. I don't want another child. I would have to give up my job as my childcare costs would be astronomical. I love my job, I don't want to be a stay at home mother. My other children would have to make sacrifices, not just economic ones like swimming lessons or day trips, but would get less of my time too. I'm exhausted. My children would certainly pick up on the fact that I was frustrated and trapped at home.

Would you truly expect me to carry the pregnancy to full term and give it up for adoption? To explain to everybody at work that I was giving the child up for adoption? Would you expect me to explain to my children that once their baby brother or sister was born I was giving it away because I didn't want it? What do you think that would do their psyche?

So you recognise it will become a child.....you mention the fact it would someone's brother or sister........

Yet try and draw a distinction between a foetus and a child? Some mind boggling gymnastics there!

That's silly logic.
If someone has 3 children, and 1 of them is killed. The other 2 children will obviously have more time/attention/money available from their parents. It doesn't give you the right to kill off 1 of your children.

JDD · 13-03-2018 4:58pm

Yet try and draw a distinction between a foetus and a child? Some mind boggling gymnastics there!

No. I was very careful with that. Every time I mentioned child in my post, it was in reference to a born child. I knew someone would jump on that, so I was very careful. It wasn't gymnastics, it was an accurate description of my beliefs.

No she hasn't. You are wrong. She was just on the pill.

So if I had also used condoms and the condom split, would you have been okay with me getting a termination.

And by the way, you didn't answer Question 1 or Question 2. Don't avoid them please.

January · 13-03-2018 4:59pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

That's silly logic.
If someone has 3 children, and 1 of them is killed. The other 2 children will obviously have more time/attention/money available from their parents. It doesn't give you the right to kill off 1 of your children.

That's a ridiculous analogy only used by a forced birther.

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 4:59pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Well that should show you how often contraception fails then

No it doesn't. It shows how careless English women are about not using contraception and getting pregnant knowing they can easily abort if they decide to have unprotected sex and become pregnant.

January · 13-03-2018 5:00pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

No it doesn't. It shows how careless English women are about not using contraception and getting pregnant knowing they can just abort if they decide to have unprotected sex.

63 percent of women who travelled to England from Ireland last year were using at least one form on contraception. Contraception fails. That doesn't mean women should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term.

SusieBlue · 13-03-2018 5:01pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

No it doesn't. It shows how careless English women are about not using contraception and getting pregnant knowing they can just abort if they decide to have unprotected sex.

Or it shows responsible women dealing with a crisis pregnancy that they do not have the means (mentally, physically, financially or emotionally) to carry, in a way they see fit. Its their health, their life, not yours.

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2018 5:01pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

No it doesn't. It shows how careless English women are about not using contraception and getting pregnant knowing they can easily abort if they decide to have unprotected sex and become pregnant.

No matter how careful a woman is all methods of contraception have a failure rate. The fact that you dont know this is worrying.

....... · 13-03-2018 5:01pm

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Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:03pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No matter how careful a woman is all methods of contraception have a failure rate. The fact that you dont know this is worrying.

I know the contraception pill is 99% effective when used correctly.
I know condoms are 98% effective when used correctly.
Combined gives close to 100% effectiveness at preventing pregnancy.

eviltwin · 13-03-2018 5:03pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

No it doesn't. It shows how careless English women are about not using contraception and getting pregnant knowing they can easily abort if they decide to have unprotected sex and become pregnant.

This kind of stupid and flippant remark is typical of people who know fcuk all about abortion.

If you had an abortion you wouldnt say it's an alternative to contraception. In every possible way contraception is the better option.

January · 13-03-2018 5:04pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

I know the contraception pill is 99% effective when used correctly.
I know condoms are 98% effective when used correctly.
Combined gives close to 100% effectiveness at preventing pregnancy.

Close to but not exactly 100% and again, not everyone can use them.

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:05pm

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Because I disagree with abortion I should just leave the discussion?
That's the general consensus around here.
Pro-life posters are ganged up on, shouted down and told to leave because they disagree with the heavily pro-abortion contingent on this website.
Ironic that the people opposed to killing the unborn are seen as the evil ones. What a sad reflection on modern society.

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2018 5:06pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

I know the contraception pill is 99% effective when used correctly.
I know condoms are 98% effective when used correctly.
Combined gives close to 100% effectiveness at preventing pregnancy.

"close to 100%"? So not 100% then. and if a woman just happens to fall into the fraction of a percent then that is just tough **** is it?

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2018 5:07pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

Because I disagree with abortion I should just leave the discussion?
That's the general consensus around here.
Pro-life posters are ganged up on, shouted down and told to leave because they disagree with the heavily pro-abortion contingent on this website.

No because your arguments are woefully ignorant.

....... · 13-03-2018 5:10pm

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Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:10pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

"close to 100%"? So not 100% then. and if a woman just happens to fall into the fraction of a percent then that is just tough **** is it?

The unborn receiving capital punishment is not the answer either.

Ave Sodalis · 13-03-2018 5:11pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

Not really, all I can see is 1 poster describing the 12 week fetus as similar in appearance to a rubber alien toy. Google the images for yourself. This isn't just some unwanted cancerous growth you can destroy, it's another tiny human being with it's own heartbeat, head, arms, legs, fingers, toes, synapses formed in the brain, intestine, responds to stimulus ,etc.

Actually, I don't need to google them. I already know what a 12 week foetus looks like. I don't see your point?

Grayson · 13-03-2018 5:11pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

That's silly logic.
If someone has 3 children, and 1 of them is killed. The other 2 children will obviously have more time/attention/money available from their parents. It doesn't give you the right to kill off 1 of your children.

You know that they (and I) don't think terminating a pregnancy at a very early stage is killing a baby/child so it's really a false analogy.

If you want to convince someone abortion is wrong you'll have to demonstrate that an embryo/foetus at a particular stage is a person.

Simply saying abortion is killing a child isn't going to change minds or win an argument unless you show why it is so.

Fred Swanson · 13-03-2018 5:12pm

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SusieBlue · 13-03-2018 5:12pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

The unborn receiving capital punishment is not the answer either.

You wonder why people don't respect your opinion, yet you go around soap boxing and posting hyperbole such as the above? Really?

There are people reading and posting here who have had abortions themselves. Perhaps a bit of sensitivity when making your point wouldn't go amiss.

Fred Swanson · 13-03-2018 5:13pm

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....... · 13-03-2018 5:14pm

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Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:14pm

....... wrote: »

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I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

....... · 13-03-2018 5:16pm

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Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:16pm

Grayson wrote: »

If you want to convince someone abortion is wrong you'll have to demonstrate that an embryo/foetus at a particular stage is a person.

I've already addressed this in a previous post:

Not really, all I can see is 1 poster describing the 12 week fetus as similar in appearance to a rubber alien toy. Google the images for yourself. This isn't just some unwanted cancerous growth you can destroy, it's another tiny human being with it's own heartbeat, head, arms, legs, fingers, toes, synapses formed in the brain, intestine, responds to stimulus ,etc.

To me that's a tiny human being and most certainly a person.

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2018 5:17pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

how many abortions do you think a woman can have before she permanently damages her fertility?

Ave Sodalis · 13-03-2018 5:17pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

Because I disagree with abortion I should just leave the discussion?
That's the general consensus around here.
Pro-life posters are ganged up on, shouted down and told to leave because they disagree with the heavily pro-abortion contingent on this website.
Ironic that the people opposed to killing the unborn are seen as the evil ones. What a sad reflection on modern society.

Great, we're going to have this sort of rubbish in this referendum too? Firstly, the poster didn't tell you to leave. They said you've nothing to bring to the discussion, and if you're using the type of unreasonable arguments that you are, which have been discussed repeatedly at this stage, then yes, your posts have added nothing more to the discussion.
Secondly, what ganging up on and shouting down are you experiencing? Please point it out. You are entitled to your opinion, but putting it on a discussion board means that that opinion will be discussed and other people are entitled to tell you what they think of that opinion. This sounds like a last ditched attempt of someone who's ran out of valid arguments and has now resorted to the "but they're bullying me because they don't agree with me!" argument...

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:18pm

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

How are they incorrect if I never said they were or weren't referring to theoretical effectiveness?
Just because you don't like them, doesn't make them incorrect.

SusieBlue · 13-03-2018 5:18pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

4k Irish women procure abortions every single year.
Ireland is by no means an abortion free country. Irish women are having them, just not in Ireland.
I already know a few people who have had them. I imagine most people know someone who has had one. You have no grip on reality at all.

....... · 13-03-2018 5:18pm

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Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:19pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how many abortions do you think a woman can have before she permanently damages her fertility?

Enlighten me then, how many?

....... · 13-03-2018 5:19pm

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JDD · 13-03-2018 5:19pm

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.

Bull. We've had divorce here for 20 years and our statistics aren't even close to the UK's.

after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different

You already know an Irish woman who's had an abortion. They just haven't told you about it.

I know three.

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:21pm

....... wrote: »

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At what point do we 'care' about humans then?
What stage of mental or cognitive development?
What stage of physical development?

Fred Swanson · 13-03-2018 5:21pm

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....... · 13-03-2018 5:22pm

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Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:23pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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So is it OK in your eyes to kill a baby 2 days before the women goes into full-term labor? Birth is just some arbitrary reference point. You know full well it's a human being at that stage. If that were the case, babies born prematurely at 8 months are not human and should be put in the zoo or something, according to your logic.

....... · 13-03-2018 5:24pm

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....... · 13-03-2018 5:25pm

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uptherebels · 13-03-2018 5:26pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

Because I disagree with abortion I should just leave the discussion?
That's the general consensus around here.
Pro-life posters are ganged up on, shouted down and told to leave because they disagree with the heavily pro-abortion contingent on this website.
Ironic that the people opposed to killing the unborn are seen as the evil ones. What a sad reflection on modern society.

relax percy no one has asked you to leave.
Anti choice posters are not ganged up on, when you are in the minority position you will always be outnumbered.
Also you are not shouted down, this is a discussion board, you will get multiple responses to your posts.

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2018 5:26pm

....... wrote: »

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we are well past that stage

SusieBlue · 13-03-2018 5:26pm

....... wrote: »

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Can we add "just put them up for adoption" and "people will want to be euthanising newborns next" to that sticky, too! :rolleyes:

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:26pm

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Because Fred Swanson just said we should only care about humans from when they are born onwards. It's just a few posts up.

SusieBlue · 13-03-2018 5:27pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

Because Fred Swanson just said we should only care about humans from when they are born onwards. It's just a few posts up.

He said nothing about aborting them at that gestation though?

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:30pm

WhiteRoses wrote: »

He said nothing about aborting them at that gestation though?

In response to my post:
At what point do we 'care' about humans then?

He said:
When it is born!

Implying we should not care about humans before they are born. 2 days before birth means you have not been born yet.

....... · 13-03-2018 5:30pm

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gctest50 · 13-03-2018 5:32pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

Percy Judd wrote: »

....
Then eventually we will become like England,.

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England

Now you are here, you want it all to be leprechauns and maidens dancing at crossroads ?

.

Percy Judd · 13-03-2018 5:33pm

I think I have caught you lot out on this point.
I have posted what stage of development a 12-week fetus is at regarding heartbeat, responding to stimulus, hands, feet, arms, legs, brain synapses, etc.
And yet you can't be straight and say you don't consider that a human life.
BUT you can't tell me at what stage of development the pregnancy becomes a human life.
Even Fred Swanson implying we shouldn't care about the life growing inside a woman, until childbirth occurs.

Grayson · 13-03-2018 5:33pm

Percy Judd wrote: »

To me that's a tiny human being and most certainly a person.

Then tell us why. The crux of an argument about abortion always revolves around this and it's rarely explained.

To me what makes a person, a human being is their mind. You can move and replace any organ and it's the same person, it's their mind that makes them human. Until that exists there's no human being present. There's no actual person there.

Conversely if a person is in an accident and is brain dead, but the rest of their body is alive, we consider them to be dead. It's the mind, not the body that makes a person.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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