The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

swampgas

Martina1991 wrote: »

You're looking so hard at the uterus, you can't see the human being attached to it.

This +1000.

Why are so many people so hostile to women who find themselves with a pregnancy they don't want? A foetus of a few weeks that might not make it to term is somehow more important than the woman who is carrying it.

Anti-abortion people always talk about "the baby" as if it was a bouncing 2-year old toddler and never give a moment's thought to the living, breathing, thinking, feeling woman (or girl) who is carrying it.

Sweetemotion

January wrote: »

Have I? I'm absolutely delighted to hear that.

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier I was on my way work.

Just when I read your comment today something clicked in my head and suddenly realized, how can I be against something that will help women in these situations and maybe let them keep the last bit of dignity they may left.

People will probably think I'm just trolling but I just want you to know you have turned a no vote to a yes and I honestly feel ashamed of my stupid posts on this thread.

Percy Judd

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

I grew up in England too, & I don't know what you are talking about.
Oh, & I know at 5 Irish women who have had abortions, that's just the ones that feel able to admit to. I only know one English woman who had one.
Doesn't prove anything obviously, but that's just my experience.

Ave Sodalis

Experience_day wrote: »

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

Scientifically and medically, the foetus becomes a child when it's born... whether or not a foetus should become protected to the same level as the mother at a certain point during the pregnancy is a matter of opinion. However, a foetus literally becomes a child by definition once born.

nice_guy80

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Scientifically and medically, the foetus becomes a child when it's born... whether or not a foetus should become protected to the same level as the mother at a certain point during the pregnancy is a matter of opinion. However, a foetus literally becomes a child by definition once born.

legally in Ireland too
thank you Supreme Court

Edward M

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

Edward M

Edward M wrote: »

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

first ive heard of it and last attention ill pay to it

jesus why do these issues bring out the crazies

gandalf

Anti Choice out canvassing in our area tonight. Have they shot their load too early.....

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

January

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I think so. They will have spent all that American money by the time the date is announced. Pro choice are playing a blinder by staying quiet and saving their money until the time comes.

Pro choice groups have started to canvas over the last couple of weeks. Our local group will have its first canvas on Monday.

BattleHardened

January wrote: »

Pro choice groups have started to canvas over the last couple of weeks. Our local group will have its first canvas on Monday.

Where are ye canvassing? What parts of dublin are most likely to be receptive to the pro-repeal side rather than anti-repeal?

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would have thought the more educated a person was, the more likely they are to be pro-repeal. Even if this is because universities tend to be more liberal settings and so liberal values tend to rub off on the students. So i'm surprised to see it is the poorer working class areas that are receptive to pro-repeal rather than the more affluent areas of dublin.

Ajsoprano

Word around my job seems to be allow the woman to abort the baby in fetal fatal situations and not for lifestyle reasons.

One lad thinks we should allow the man to abort the baby, he has his arguements I could never see a politician backing his views though.

It’s a good mix of average Irish people. All sorts. I think the problem with internet or college warriors is they think the whole world sees things the way they do.

Half the twitter people won’t even vote unless it’s to take a picture of themselves voting.

Nobody seems to be taking the old vote into consideration anymore because they arnt on Twitter. They vote like no other crowd. It could come down to the weather or whether there is a pop concert on that day.

I’m rambling now.....

PhoenixParker

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Word around my job seems to be allow the woman to abort the baby in fetal fatal situations and not for lifestyle reasons.

One lad thinks we should allow the man to abort the baby, he has his arguements I could never see a politician backing his views though.

It’s a good mix of average Irish people. All sorts. I think the problem with internet or college warriors is they think the whole world sees things the way they do.

Half the twitter people won’t even vote unless it’s to take a picture of themselves voting.

Nobody seems to be taking the old vote into consideration anymore because they arnt on Twitter. They vote like no other crowd. It could come down to the weather or whether there is a pop concert on that day.

I’m rambling now.....

Lifestyle reasons, jaysus that gets my back up, as though the difference between having a child and not having a child boils down to whether you prefer to go hiking or go to the pub.

Having a child affects every single aspect of a woman’s life. It also affects the lives of her immediate family and often her extended family too. It’s not some tiny f*ing “lifestyle” change not worthy of accommodation or consideration, it’s one of the single biggest events in any mothers life.

To describe, for instance, a single mother struggling to get services for an autistic child while holding down a job as choosing a lifestyle abortion is one of the most insulting odious statements possible.

The sitting in judgement of deserving vs undeserving women . . . Ugh

splinter65

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Lifestyle reasons, jaysus that gets my back up, as though the difference between having a child and not having a child boils down to whether you prefer to go hiking or go to the pub.

Having a child affects every single aspect of a woman’s life. It also affects the lives of her immediate family and often her extended family too. It’s not some tiny f*ing “lifestyle” change not worthy of accommodation or consideration, it’s one of the single biggest events in any mothers life.

To describe, for instance, a single mother struggling to get services for an autistic child while holding down a job as choosing a lifestyle abortion is one of the most insulting odious statements possible.

The sitting in judgement of deserving vs undeserving women . . . Ugh

Are you suggesting that no woman ever had an abortion because being pregnant was inconvenient for her?

PhoenixParker

splinter65 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that no woman ever had an abortion because being pregnant was inconvenient for her?

I'm suggesting that to describe pregnancy as merely "inconvient" is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation of how much a pregnancy affects a woman's life.

An inconvience is your bus being late.

splinter65

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I'm suggesting that to describe pregnancy as merely "inconvient" is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation of how much a pregnancy affects a woman's life.

An inconvience is your bus being late.

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.
I don’t judge people but I don’t think you have a very well rounded view of parenthood. It seems to be very negative and fraught with anxiety with very little upside.
If it was as awful as you seem to think it is then no one would ever have a second baby, yet people still have 5 and 6.

Ajsoprano

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I'm suggesting that to describe pregnancy as merely "inconvient" is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation of how much a pregnancy affects a woman's life.

An inconvience is your bus being late.

When you called me odious I got angry and started writing a flippant post about how the poor women have to all live under the bridge because somebody’s family got pregnant like your other post suggested.
I’m doing this new thing where I count to ten before I hit post. It’s working a treat.

It’s either a lifestyle choice to not use birth control when it’s available on the medical card or the morning after pill or else it’s a lifestyle choice to have an abortion because you want to go to college.

To call that odious just tells me that you are trying to exaggerate women’s problems in 2018 Ireland. It’s not Cambodia, it’s not 1741.

As far as most people are concerned it’s
Option a no abortion
Option b fatal fetal
Option c lifestyle abortion

Missing out on an arts degree because you were too hungover to get the morning after pill isn’t really a human rights struggle now is it?

PhoenixParker

Ajsoprano wrote: »

When you called me odious I got angry and started writing a flippant post about how the poor women have to all live under the bridge because somebody’s family got pregnant like your other post suggested.
I’m doing this new thing where I count to ten before I hit post. It’s working a treat.

It’s either a lifestyle choice to not use birth control when it’s available on the medical card or the morning after pill or else it’s a lifestyle choice to have an abortion because you want to go to college.

To call that odious just tells me that you are trying to exaggerate women’s problems in 2018 Ireland. It’s not Cambodia, it’s not 1741.

As far as most people are concerned it’s
Option a no abortion
Option b fatal fetal
Option c lifestyle abortion

Missing out on an arts degree because you were too hungover to get the morning after pill isn’t really a human rights struggle now is it?

It abso****inglutely is a human rights struggle.
That women should be punished for the rest of their lives because of a single bad decision.

Oh you smoked, no cancer treatment.
Oh you Jay walked, here are some crutches because were not resetting your leg.
Oh you forgot to use a condom, here's a child you don't want.

I didn't call you odious, you said your co-worker talked about lifestyle abortions not you, but if it's you I suggest you really really think about the inherent misogyny in those views.

RobertKK

It is two lives, the mother with another life in her womb.
People see the woman, some don't see the life in the womb and view the unborn which is alive as potential waste rather than being a life in his or her own right.

It would be good if the government put as much effort into fixing the health system as they are into repeal the 8th.
They expect doctors to become abortionists when 66% or so say they will not, Some saying they became doctors to save lives, not take it.

Ajsoprano

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It abso****inglutely is a human rights struggle.
That women should be punished for the rest of their lives because of a single bad decision.

Oh you smoked, no cancer treatment.
Oh you Jay walked, here are some crutches because were not resetting your leg.
Oh you forgot to use a condom, here's a child you don't want.

I didn't call you odious, you said your co-worker talked about lifestyle abortions not you, but if it's you I suggest you really really think about the inherent misogyny in those views.

Or oh your mother doesn’t want you no maternity treatment.

Ave Sodalis

splinter65 wrote: »

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.
I don’t judge people but I don’t think you have a very well rounded view of parenthood. It seems to be very negative and fraught with anxiety with very little upside.
If it was as awful as you seem to think it is then no one would ever have a second baby, yet people still have 5 and 6.

Not only does the post show a large amount of ignorance towards the reasons people have abortions, it also shows a massive amount of ignorance towards the thought processes behind it.

If I fell pregnant in the near future, I will be having an abortion for some very valid reasons. It is something I've already thought about and planned for so I don't need to make a quick decision if it does happen. I'm doing all I can to prevent it from happening but I'm not ignorant enough to think there's no risk at all. Therefore, I'm planning for that risk. It would be the right decision for me, so why would I think any more on it? There's not always weeks of grief because some people already know what they would do.

Not everyone has an abortion because they don't want to be parents. I'd highly recommend reading some of the stories on the Facebook page "In Her Shoes"

Call me Al

splinter65 wrote: »

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.
I don’t judge people but I don’t think you have a very well rounded view of parenthood. It seems to be very negative and fraught with anxiety with very little upside.
If it was as awful as you seem to think it is then no one would ever have a second baby, yet people still have 5 and 6.

You say you know lots of women who have had an abortion and thought nothing of it.
How can you possibly know LOTS of women in this situation? Lots who have discussed this with you, an openly anti-repeal supporter? How many do you consider "lots"?
I am heading towards 50 years on this earth of ours, and know and have met lots of women over the years. I know a few women who have had abortions. None of them, when they chose to discuss their thought process and choice with me, made the decision lightly or dismissively.
Where are these LOTS OF WOMEN you have encountered?

splinter65

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Not only does the post show a large amount of ignorance towards the reasons people have abortions, it also shows a massive amount of ignorance towards the thought processes behind it.

If I fell pregnant in the near future, I will be having an abortion for some very valid reasons. It is something I've already thought about and planned for so I don't need to make a quick decision if it does happen. I'm doing all I can to prevent it from happening but I'm not ignorant enough to think there's no risk at all. Therefore, I'm planning for that risk. It would be the right decision for me, so why would I think any more on it? There's not always weeks of grief because some people already know what they would do.

Not everyone has an abortion because they don't want to be parents. I'd highly recommend reading some of the stories on the Facebook page "In Her Shoes"

I live in the real world. People have abortions because they have been told that the baby they are having is disabled or will not survive outside the womb.
They have abortions because they thought their family was complete and didn’t intend to start again.
They have abortions because either their contraception failed or they didn’t use contraception.
They have abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant.
Some women have abortions because it has been made clear to them that they will have no support.
Some women have more than 1 abortion.
There’s a trend on amongst the pro repeal advocates to push the idea that every abortion is agonized over and only happens after much heart searching.
What absolute nonsense.
It’s just a bunch of cells. A non sentient clump with no brain and no rights.
There’s no need for any agonizing.

NuMarvel

Edward M wrote: »

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

I know they've a snowball's chance in hell, because to be able register to vote in a referendum you have to ordinarily resident in a Dáil constituency, i.e. within the State. Citizens living outside the State, including Northern Ireland, aren't eligible on that basis.

I notice that the article didn't specify who sought the application for a judicial review, just the solicitors who lodged it. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a pro life group trying to delay the referendum.

Ajsoprano

Call me Al wrote: »

You say you kniw lots of women who have had an abortion and thought nothing of it.
How can you possibly know LOTS of women in thus situation? Lots who have discussed this with you, an openly anti-repeal supporter? How many do consider "lots"?
I am heading towards 50 years on this earth of ours, and know and have met lots of women over the years. I know a few women who have had abortions. None of them, when they chose to discuss their thought process and choice with me, made the decision lightly or dismissively.
Where are these LOTS OF WOMEN you have encountered?

I know a fair few women who have had miscarriages and for them the thought that people say 11 week old babies are just an unimportant blob of cells sickens them.
I know a fair few gay people who would love to adopt and the thoughts that people would rather babies were aborted rather than gay adoption given more attention sickens them.

It’s a mad referendum all together really.

Beta Ray Bill

Genuinely I am leaning towards the Pro-choice side but only slightly.

I've still not made up my mind on this issue.
My concern is that what seems like a reasonable idea now could have drastic consequences down the road.
Eamon De Valera felt that a catholic state was a good idea and at the time for everyone it made sense... and look how that worked out.
Brexit was heralded as a solution to all of the UK's problems... 2 years in and it's clear that it was the wrong choice and a very costly one at that

The one niggling thing that keeps getting me is; Had abortion had been available at a time when my mother was pregnant with my sister, she might not have been born. My parents were going through a bad break up at the time and my sister was the (presumed accidental) product of a reconciliation attempt.
Things worked out in the end. I love my sister, I cannot imagine growing up as an only child.

splinter65

Call me Al wrote: »

You say you know lots of women who have had an abortion and thought nothing of it.
How can you possibly know LOTS of women in this situation? Lots who have discussed this with you, an openly anti-repeal supporter? How many do you consider "lots"?
I am heading towards 50 years on this earth of ours, and know and have met lots of women over the years. I know a few women who have had abortions. None of them, when they chose to discuss their thought process and choice with me, made the decision lightly or dismissively.
Where are these LOTS OF WOMEN you have encountered?

I meet them in my line of work.
This is getting ridiculous now.
About one in 3 women having abortions in the UK have already had an abortion.
Across Asia 100 baby girls are born to every 120 boys .
I don’t judge any of these people. Every one has to live with themselves.
But pretending that people only have abortions in a crisis is nuts.

swampgas

grahambo wrote: »

The one niggling thing that keeps getting me is; Had abortion had been available at a time when my mother was pregnant with my sister, she might not have been born. My parents were going through a bad break up at the time and my sister was the (presumed accidental) product of a reconciliation attempt.
Things worked out in the end. I love my sister, I cannot imagine growing up as an only child.

What about the twin brother your sister might have had? Do you miss your brother? Can you imagine living without him?

You might as say we should ban contraception because of all the other brothers and sisters you might have right now.

swampgas

splinter65 wrote: »

I meet them in my line of work.
This is getting ridiculous now.
About one in 3 women having abortions in the UK have already had an abortion.
Across Asia 100 baby girls are born to every 120 boys .
I don’t judge any of these people. Every one has to live with themselves.
But pretending that people only have abortions in a crisis is nuts.

And you think that because some people have abortions for reasons that you think trivial, the 8th amendment should be retained?

Do you know how nuts that is?

Ajsoprano

swampgas wrote: »

And you think that because some people have abortions for reasons that you think trivial, the 8th amendment should be retained?

Do you know how nuts that is?

We were talking about whether there was a lifestyle choice element to it.

PhoenixParker

splinter65 wrote: »

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.

I don’t pretend that.
Nor did I state that women always spend weeks agonizing, grieving or contemplating the decision.

I also don’t pretend that being pregnant is merely an inconvenience or that abortion is merely a lifestyle decision.

I’ve been pregnant and have a child. It’s been the most wonderful best thing I’ve ever done. Love it but that’s in a large part because I wanted a child and am in a great position to raise him.

My pregnancy was not merely inconvenient though. It was an easy pregnancy but I had common symptoms, in my case exhaustion. I could work but I certainly couldn’t safely drive to and from the west of Ireland in a day as my job required. Long hours weren’t possible, clear headed analysis was out the window. Staring at a computer screen blankly accounted for big chunks of my day. Staying awake to be able to cook dinner was an impossibility, luckily my husband did that. These are the minor end of pregnancy symptoms but their impact is much greater than an inconvenience. We all know women who’ve had much tougher pregnancies than mine.

The 20+k I didn’t earn when on maternity leave was planned and saved for, but for many women that would mean homelessness. Perhaps that’s the lifestyle choice you’re thinking of? The childcare expenses we now pay, the pay cut I took to move to a more family friendly job. . .

Choosing to have an abortion, no matter how quickly or decisively, is never for convenience and lifestyle reasons because pregnancy is not merely inconvenient and having a child does not merely tweak your lifestyle.

Ajsoprano

swampgas wrote: »

What about the twin brother your sister might have had? Do you miss your brother? Can you imagine living without him?

You might as say we should ban contraception because of all the other brothers and sisters you might have right now.

Are you saying an 11 week old baby in the mammies belly is the same as a bit of jizz on a sock?

zedhead

splinter65 wrote: »

I live in the real world. People have abortions because they have been told that the baby they are having is disabled or will not survive outside the womb.
They have abortions because they thought their family was complete and didn’t intend to start again.
They have abortions because either their contraception failed or they didn’t use contraception.
They have abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant.
Some women have abortions because it has been made clear to them that they will have no support.
Some women have more than 1 abortion.
There’s a trend on amongst the pro repeal advocates to push the idea that every abortion is agonized over and only happens after much heart searching.
What absolute nonsense.
It’s just a bunch of cells. A non sentient clump with no brain and no rights.
There’s no need for any agonizing.

Do you think the decisions you listed were snap judgements decided on a whim? Just because its not a crisis situation, does not mean its an easy decision to make. You may 100% know it is the right thing to do but still wish you weren't in the situation to have to make the decision.

swampgas

Ajsoprano wrote: »

We were talking about whether there was a lifestyle choice element to it.

Lifestyle choice - that's a horrible little phrase, to be honest, designed to imply that people are making arbitrary choices on little more than a whim.

It also suggests that some people's choices are not worthy enough for the rest of us to respect. So much easier to have a draconian law that makes everyone's choice for them instead, is that your opinion?

You either respect people's right to have autonomy, and make their own choices, or you don't. Hiding behind a thinly veiled sneer at "lifestyle choices" isn't much of an argument and doesn't reflect well on you.

swampgas

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Are you saying an 11 week old baby in the mammies belly is the same as a bit of jizz on a sock?

Nope. I never said that. Try thinking harder.

splinter65

zedhead wrote: »

Do you think the decisions you listed were snap judgements decided on a whim? Just because its not a crisis situation, does not mean its an easy decision to make. You may 100% know it is the right thing to do but still wish you weren't in the situation to have to make the decision.

Yes lots of women find it easy to decide to abort. It’s just a bunch of cells. It’s a fetus not a baby. It doesn’t feel anything. It’s the same as the morning after pill.
Really I’m thinking now you want to have your cake and eat it.
If it’s a nothing, a zygote, a speck, then why on earth would it be a difficult desicion to make?

Ave Sodalis

splinter65 wrote: »

I live in the real world. People have abortions because they have been told that the baby they are having is disabled or will not survive outside the womb.
They have abortions because they thought their family was complete and didn’t intend to start again.
They have abortions because either their contraception failed or they didn’t use contraception.
They have abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant.
Some women have abortions because it has been made clear to them that they will have no support.
Some women have more than 1 abortion.
There’s a trend on amongst the pro repeal advocates to push the idea that every abortion is agonized over and only happens after much heart searching.
What absolute nonsense.
It’s just a bunch of cells. A non sentient clump with no brain and no rights.
There’s no need for any agonizing.

People have abortions for all those reasons and more. It didn't take much... ehh... heart searching... for me to make my decision for the future. I am really struggling to see your point here. Some people agonize over it before they become pregnant, some people do afterwards, some people don't at all. However, the fact remains that you cannot call it an easy decision, or one that's done on a whim when so many do agonize over it.

Also, do you truly believe those last lines? Or is this part of the weird point you're making?

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I know a fair few women who have had miscarriages and for them the thought that people say 11 week old babies are just an unimportant blob of cells sickens them.
I know a fair few gay people who would love to adopt and the thoughts that people would rather babies were aborted rather than gay adoption given more attention sickens them.

It’s a mad referendum all together really.

They aren't unimportant when they're wanted.
Fertile women are not baby makers for people who can't have children. That thought sickens me.

Ajsoprano

swampgas wrote: »

Lifestyle choice - that's a horrible little phrase, to be honest, designed to imply that people are making arbitrary choices on little more than a whim.

It also suggest that some people's choices are not worthy enough for the rest of us to respect. So much easier to have a draconian law that makes everyone's choice for them instead, is that your opinion?

You either respect people's right to have autonomy, and make their own choices, or you don't. Hiding behind a thinly veiled sneer at "lifestyle choices" isn't much of an argument and doesn't reflect well on you.

It’s not a sneer. You can’t just call things you don’t like a sneer.

I’m glad I had autonomy over my body when I was growing in my mother. What if she wanted to go study literature in dit?

Ave Sodalis

Ajsoprano wrote: »

It’s not a sneer. You can’t just call things you don’t like a sneer.

I’m glad I had autonomy over my body when I was growing in my mother. What if she wanted to go study literature in dit?

So only arts students have abortions? Or is it only arts students who aren't doing a course that's worthy of abortion? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

zedhead

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes lots of women find it easy to decide to abort. It’s just a bunch of cells. It’s a fetus not a baby. It doesn’t feel anything. It’s the same as the morning after pill.
Really I’m thinking now you want to have your cake and eat it.
If it’s a nothing, a zygote, a speck, then why on earth would it be a difficult desicion to make?

For one, because its not an easy process to go through. The process has been described a few times in this thread, its not just popping a pill and 10 minutes later its as if you were never pregnant. Its not the same process as the morning after pill.

splinter65

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

People have abortions for all those reasons and more. It didn't take much... ehh... heart searching... for me to make my decision for the future. I am really struggling to see your point here. Some people agonize over it before they become pregnant, some people do afterwards, some people don't at all. However, the fact remains that you cannot call it an easy decision, or one that's done on a whim when so many do agonize over it.

Also, do you truly believe those last lines? Or is this part of the weird point you're making?



They aren't unimportant when they're wanted.
Fertile women are not baby makers for people who can't have children. That thought sickens me.

No I don’t believe those lines.
That’s part of the pro repeal spiel here.
The bloody hypocrisy .
One minute it’s a zygote a fetus a speck non sentient and a bunch of cells. It’s even been described as a parasite.
The next post were asked to believe that every woman who ever had an abortion only did so after “much heart searching” etc....over the zygote/bunch of cells/parasite ....oh please.

Ajsoprano

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

So only arts students have abortions? Or is it only arts students who aren't doing a course that's worthy of abortion? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

A degree is a degree. I named two separate degrees in the last two posts I mentioned degrees. In my next post if mentioning degrees I’ll say marketing in trinity to please you.

You say you are not a baby maker for the barren but tell me why would you rather your child not live than have him live with somebody else?

Beta Ray Bill

swampgas wrote: »

What about the twin brother your sister might have had? Do you miss your brother? Can you imagine living without him?

You might as say we should ban contraception because of all the other brothers and sisters you might have right now.

I feel abortion should an option in some cases.
However my concern is that it will be become a form of mainstream contraception. (I'm trying to be sensitive with my words here)

If I felt people were responsible in this country it would be a big "repeal" from me.
However people are not responsible in this country, not at all in fact.

Irish people are renowned for the "It's always someone else's fault" attitude or "just my luck" or "not my problem", not to mention how self entitled a lot of people are today. Such to the extent that they feel they should have X,Y or Z not because they've earned it, but because the feel they are entitled to/deserve it, because someone that has earned it has gotten it. (Obviously you dont earn the right to have an abortion, I' not using this as a metaphor. rather trying to gauge the way people think in this country)

You only have to look at all the crap that happen in the lead up to and during the crash to understand we Irish are not responsible.

PhoenixParker

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Are you saying an 11 week old baby in the mammies belly is the same as a bit of jizz on a sock?

I had an 11 week miscarriage.
It was upsetting, devastating at the time, I still think about the baby and what might have been . . .

But. . .

That miscarriage was in no way remotely comparable to the loss of a living breathing child. As a mother the pain of such a loss is something I can’t even bare to think about.

I know many women who’ve had miscarriages, I know a few people who’ve lost children. The two are not remotely comparable because while a fetus has more value then your sock full of jizz, it is nowhere close to the value of a living breathing child.

Even the Irish government accords maternity leave rights only for stillborn babies after 24 weeks gestation.

swampgas

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I’m glad I had autonomy over my body when I was growing in my mother. What if she wanted to go study literature in dit?

You didn't have autonomy. You weren't even aware you existed.

If she had aborted you would never know it, is the point. You (and everyone else) is the result of a staggeringly random set of circumstances. It's crazy (yet quite common) for people to panic about how "if abortion was available to my mother I might not be here", when there are a million and one other reasons why you might not be here, or why you might be a completely different person.

What about if your mother had an abortion and you were the child she had later in life, having met a different partner? If she had never aborted the first time then you wouldn't be here either. It's an insane game of what-if to play with yourself.

zedhead

splinter65 wrote: »

No I don’t believe those lines.
That’s part of the pro repeal spiel here.
The bloody hypocrisy .
One minute it’s a zygote a fetus a speck non sentient and a bunch of cells. It’s even been described as a parasite.
The next post were asked to believe that every woman who ever had an abortion only did so after “much heart searching” etc....over the zygote/bunch of cells/parasite ....oh please.

I think the pro choice show there is a range of feelings, emotions and beliefs on the value of the fetus, but the main point remains it does not have the same value as a living breathing human and so it is the living breathing womens decision whether or not they wish to allow it residency in their womb.

Ave Sodalis

splinter65 wrote: »

No I don’t believe those lines.
That’s part of the pro repeal spiel here.
The bloody hypocrisy .
One minute it’s a zygote a fetus a speck non sentient and a bunch of cells. It’s even been described as a parasite.
The next post were asked to believe that every woman who ever had an abortion only did so after “much heart searching” etc....over the zygote/bunch of cells/parasite ....oh please.

Both of those answers are correct. A foetus is a potential for life. Not every woman aborts as she doesn't want children, not every woman faces that decision until they fall pregnant. However, in the time frame mentioned, it is still very much non sentient. I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

You say you are not a baby maker for the barren but tell me why would you rather your child not live than have him live with somebody else?

Because it would kill me, not that the pro-life would care.

Ajsoprano

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I had an 11 week miscarriage.
It was upsetting, devastating at the time, I still think about the baby and what might have been . . .

But. . .

That miscarriage was in no way remotely comparable to the loss of a living breathing child. As a mother the pain of such a loss is something I can’t even bare to think about.

I know many women who’ve had miscarriages, I know a few people who’ve lost children. The two are not remotely comparable because while a fetus has more value then your sock full of jizz, it is nowhere close to the value of a living breathing child.

Even the Irish government accords maternity leave rights only for stillborn babies after 24 weeks gestation.

I think it’s terrible the maternity leave rights are that way. If not maternity leave I think it shouldn’t be a situation where you are pushed out the door being told the baby didn’t stick at the very least.

swampgas

grahambo wrote: »

I feel abortion should an option in some cases.
However my concern is that it will be become a form of mainstream contraception. (I'm trying to be sensitive with my words here)

If I felt people were responsible in this country it would be a big "repeal" from me.
However people are not responsible in this country, not at all in fact.

Irish people are renowned for the "It's always someone else's fault" attitude or "just my luck" or "not my problem", not to mention how self entitled a lot of people are today. Such to the extent that they feel they should have X,Y or Z not because they've earned it, but because the feel they are entitled to/deserve it, because someone that has earned it has gotten it. (Obviously you dont earn the right to have an abortion, I' not using this as a metaphor. rather trying to gauge the way people think in this country)

You only have to look at all the crap that happen in the lead up to and during the crash to understand we Irish are not responsible.

Look, Irish women have abortions right now - they just travel to the UK. In fact in a referendum years ago the Irish people put it in the constitution that they have the right to travel. The constitution reflects the weird contradictory attitude I find here: abortion is okay if you travel, but a terrible crime if you have one at home. It's the same woman, the same pregnancy, the same foetus/baby, just in a different place for a few days. How crazy is that?

Trying to link abortion to the financial crisis is just ... I don't know where to begin, to be honest.

amdublin

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Fertile women are not baby makers for people who can't have children. That thought sickens me.

Handmaids Tale anyone?