The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RHJ

This post has been deleted.

maxsmum

Do you think Leo might change his tune if every woman who has to travel for abortion stands to get 30k?
That's a LOT of taxpayer dough, whether you personally agree with abortion or not.

captbarnacles

This country is embarrassing sometimes.

Loads more cases no doubt and they deserve every cent.

Odhinn

maxsmum wrote: »

Do you think Leo might change his tune if every woman who has to travel for abortion stands to get 30k?
That's a LOT of taxpayer dough, whether you personally agree with abortion or not.

30k plus whatever legal fees. The tendency to fight change tooth and nail in the courts is sickening.

Doltanian

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

maxsmum

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

Yeah but regardless of your views, this is what's happened!

endacl

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

On an unrelated topic....

Please don’t use the word ‘liberal’ in the Fox News sense. It loses its meaning and makes you sound stupid.

Mint Sauce

Most disturbing line in that article..

'Let nature take its course'. The woman was serverly failed by the health service and our government. Sounds like some sh!te Youth Defense would come up with.

:mad:

Outlaw Pete

maxsmum wrote: »

State has to pay 30k to woman denied abortion in Ireland

Good.

The condition meant the foetus would likely die in her womb and if carried to term the baby would probably die during labour or soon after.

mahamageehad

Odhinn wrote: »

30k plus whatever legal fees. The tendency to fight change tooth and nail in the courts is sickening.

I didn't even cop that, legal expenses would surely be as much if not more than the €30,000 award right? I've no idea, but I'm guessing it's not cheap!

Odhinn

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

From the article-

"..........a scan revealed her unborn son had holoprosencephaly, a congenital brain malformation occurring in one in 250 pregnancies during early embryo development, and 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 20,000 at term.
The condition meant the foetus would likely die in her womb and if carried to term the baby would probably die during labour or soon after."
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/state-pays-30k-in-compensation-to-woman-denied-abortion-in-ireland-36298487.html

maxsmum

Maybe someone legal would know whether, if the country voted No in a referendum, we'd still be liable for these payouts under Human Rights law?

Odhinn

mahamageehad wrote: »

I didn't even cop that, legal expenses would surely be as much if not more than the €30,000 award right? I've no idea, but I'm guessing it's not cheap!

Well previously they fought a group of women all the way to and through the European court. We'd need the more informed than I to give a guesstimate of that sort of expense.

Oink

RHJ wrote: »

That woman deserves every single cent.

I think what mothers and fathers deserve is for the Band of Righteous Brothers to come to them crying and BEGGING for forgiveness, saying “we are so, so fùcking sorry for what we did to you and to all the others and we beg God to forgive us for doing that to you in His Name.”

Other than that I agree with you.

uptherebels

maxsmum wrote: »

Maybe someone legal would know whether, if the country voted No in a referendum, we'd still be liable for these payouts under Human Rights law?

while i'm no legal eagle, I would say yes. A no to repealing the 8th would have no affect on the outcome to the above situation in relation to human rights law

Doltanian

maxsmum wrote: »

Maybe someone legal would know whether, if the country voted No in a referendum, we'd still be liable for these payouts under Human Rights law?

And it will be No vote believe me, upto €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote, this is one battle Soros will not win. Today is the 100th Anniversary of the Bolshevik takeover and they have cost the lives of over 150million people in Europe in the last century with their destructive policies.

Mrs OBumble

Oink wrote: »

Have you ever been told that your daughter is not going to make it. Then watched your wife sitting there wondering is her child dead or not. Every. Single. Fücking. Day.

Do you know anyone who was told that her baby was most likely not going to make it, but chose to continue with the pregnancy any - and ended up having a child with almost no impairment.

I do.

And she thinks - Every Single Day - what if I'd taken the doctor's advice and just got rid of him?

Double-edged sword here.

There are a few conditions where they know 100% that the baby won't survive. There are vastly more where it's a best guess with a probability (value unknown) of being wrong either way.


There's also the vexed question of how long after birth you set the cut-off at - is a child who's likely to live for less than a day worth keeping? A few days? A few weeks, months, years? How on earth to you decide ...





FWIW, if it were up to me, I'd remove all legal regulation of abortion. Leave it totally for doctors to decide, in consultation with their patients. There would still be plenty refused, because doctors decide it's not in their best interests.

mahamageehad

maxsmum wrote: »

Maybe someone legal would know whether, if the country voted No in a referendum, we'd still be liable for these payouts under Human Rights law?

Retrospective payments to people forced to travel before any referendum change was implemented? I'd guess probably. But I think many of these women don't care about the money, they are doing it to stop other women being in the same situation so I don't know if many would pursue once a restriction was lifted.

The vast majority of people seem to be behind repeal in the case of FFA so I'd be hopeful that that will stop these cases coming up in future.

Doltanian

Doltanian wrote: »

And it will be No vote believe me, upto €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote, this is one battle Soros will not win. Today is the 100th Anniversary of the Bolshevik takeover and they have cost the lives of over 150million people in Europe in the last century with their destructive policies.

What the **** planet are you posting from and in response to what topic

mahamageehad

mahamageehad wrote: »

Retrospective payments to people forced to travel before any referendum change was implemented? I'd guess probably. But I think many of these women don't care about the money, they are doing it to stop other women being in the same situation so I don't know if many would pursue once a restriction was lifted.

The vast majority of people seem to be behind repeal in the case of FFA so I'd be hopeful that that will stop these cases coming up in future.

Sorry actually Maxsmum, I completely misread you, I thought you asked would the country still be liable if the 8th was repealed.

If the referendum fails, then our current laws would stand which are a violation of human rights so it's pretty much guaranteed that we'd be on the hook for these cases.

endacl

Doltanian wrote: »

And it will be No vote believe me, upto €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote, this is one battle Soros will not win. Today is the 100th Anniversary of the Bolshevik takeover and they have cost the lives of over 150million people in Europe in the last century with their destructive policies.

Dafuq are you on about?

eviltwin

Doltanian wrote: »

And it will be No vote believe me, upto €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote, this is one battle Soros will not win. Today is the 100th Anniversary of the Bolshevik takeover and they have cost the lives of over 150million people in Europe in the last century with their destructive policies.

Hold your horses there a second. We don't even know what we are being asked to vote on. It might just be a vote on repealing the amendment which will change little for women like the one in the article. Abortion will still be illegal and will need to be legislated for and that could take years.

If we are being asked to allow abortion for FFA, like the case in the article, the voters would allow it by a huge majority. Unlike some most Irish people are compassionate and realistic where FFA is concerned.

uptherebels

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

FWIW, if it were up to me, I'd remove all legal regulation of abortion. Leave it totally for doctors to decide, in consultation with their patients. There would still be plenty refused, because doctors decide it's not in their best interests.

have to disagree with you there. If there is no regulation then there is no legal reason to deny someone an abortion. While individual doctors might say no people would get it done somewhere else.

bear1

Oink wrote: »

Have you ever been told that your daughter is not going to make it. Then watched your wife sitting there wondering is her child dead or not. Every. Single. Fücking. Day.

“Gravy train.”

I swear to God and all his minions this is one topic that will one day drive me to actual violence.



EDIT: not meant as a threat towards anyone here.

Yep.
This Saturday 1 year ago my son died or at least that's when the doctors time the death as cause it could have been about 2 weeks prior.
We knew in September something was wrong when the scans were coming back incomplete.
By October we knew the child will either die inside the womb or during birth.
I wouldn't wish the agony and torture of that on my worst enemy.
It opened my eyes to the whole abortion debate and i honestly think it should be allowed but there will need to be a cut off point and not simply allowed cause you didn't use protection.
I'll also say, having gone through all that, that the procedure itself is heartwrenching.
No one really focuses on the father, who is usually sitting outside the room waiting for the doctor to come with a black body bag to bring your son away who didn't even have a chance in life but not cause we didn't want him to have but ****ing nature ran its course.

I'm probably going off on a tangent at this point so I'll just bow out.

Sleeper12

captbarnacles wrote:

This country is embarrassing sometimes.

Only sometimes?

mahamageehad

Sorry to hear that you had to go through that bear.
The gentleman from TMFR that spoke at 8 committee really opened my eyes to how much men are left out of the conversation, especially in tragic cases like this. The focus is too often entirely on the woman, while the man is expected to keep the chin up and be the rock. Hope you managed to come through it without too many scars.

captbarnacles

eviltwin wrote: »

Hold your horses there a second. We don't even know what we are being asked to vote on. It might just be a vote on repealing the amendment which will change little for women like the one in the article. Abortion will still be illegal and will need to be legislated for and that could take years.

If we are being asked to allow abortion for FFA, like the case in the article, the voters would allow it by a huge majority. Unlike some most Irish people are compassionate and realistic where FFA is concerned.

??

We're clearly being asked to vote no on a Bolshevik takeover.

Odhinn

merge magic....

Ken.

Mod- Threads merged. The other thread started out about the story but soon became a sister thread of this one.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

You obviously didn't read the article. You see the word abortion and flip your shít.

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Most disturbing line in that article..

'Let nature take its course'. The woman was serverly failed by the health service and our government. Sounds like some sh!te Youth Defense would come up with.

:mad:

It's really sickening. Imagine being told that. It just shows how stuck in time we actually are. You would think that article is from medieval times.

Odhinn wrote: »

From the article-

"..........a scan revealed her unborn son had holoprosencephaly, a congenital brain malformation occurring in one in 250 pregnancies during early embryo development, and 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 20,000 at term.
The condition meant the foetus would likely die in her womb and if carried to term the baby would probably die during labour or soon after."
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/state-pays-30k-in-compensation-to-woman-denied-abortion-in-ireland-36298487.html

maxsmum wrote: »

Maybe someone legal would know whether, if the country voted No in a referendum, we'd still be liable for these payouts under Human Rights law?

She should have received a lot more imo. I hope these payments become common place and the lawmakers of the country pull their heads out of their holes.

People referring to this payout as a gravy train, get fcuked. You have no idea the pain the parents go though, and then to be subject to ridicule from some twats on the internet acting all high and mighty... get some fcuking life experience you god damn snow flakes.

gctest50

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn.

function EmoteEmoteEmote() {

Doltanian wrote: »

......... defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

}

The link below leads to some very graphic photos. You have been warned

Holoprosencephaly :



http://bit.ly/2zqMTRK



The overall prevalence of holoprosencephaly is 1/16000 live birth. It has been associated with autosomal-dominant, recessive and monogenic inheritance, infectious (cytomegalovirus, toxoplasmosis), toxic (hydantoin), maternal diabetes, first trimester bleeding and dizygotic twinning

.

bear1

mahamageehad wrote: »

Sorry to hear that you had to go through that bear.
The gentleman from TMFR that spoke at 8 committee really opened my eyes to how much men are left out of the conversation, especially in tragic cases like this. The focus is too often entirely on the woman, while the man is expected to keep the chin up and be the rock. Hope you managed to come through it without too many scars.

It hurt for a long time but you know you need to move on.
We have a 2.5 year old so our energy poured into her and now my wife is 4 months pregnant with our new one and things are looking good.
Yes the focus is usually all on the mother and I mean in some sense rightly so as it's her body that's being checked and touched and opened etc.
The father deals with the emotional heartbreak of it all.
I must have smoked 3 packets of cigarettes that day and it's emotionally draining too.
I only knew it was a boy when he was removed which made things even worse for me deep down.
But we all got through it in the end

Odhinn

gctest50 wrote: »

function EmoteEmoteEmote() {


}

That link should have a warnin, in fairness.

gctest50

failure to cleave n rotate you see :

kylith

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

Even if the unborn will never live?

sunshine and showers

Tara Dazzling Technician wrote: »

She should have received a lot more imo. I hope these payments become common place and the lawmakers of the country pull their heads out

People referring to this payout as a gravy train, get fcuked. You have no idea the pain the parents go though, and then to be subject to ridicule from some twats on the internet acting all high and mighty... get some fcuking life experience you god damn snow flakes.

I would hazard a guess that the people referring to this as a gravy train held similar views on payments in redress of institutional abuse and the Magdalene Lanudries.

IE, they're completely heartless.

volchitsa

bear1 wrote: »

Yep.
This Saturday 1 year ago my son died or at least that's when the doctors time the death as cause it could have been about 2 weeks prior.
We knew in September something was wrong when the scans were coming back incomplete.
By October we knew the child will either die inside the womb or during birth.
I wouldn't wish the agony and torture of that on my worst enemy.
It opened my eyes to the whole abortion debate and i honestly think it should be allowed but there will need to be a cut off point and not simply allowed cause you didn't use protection.
I'll also say, having gone through all that, that the procedure itself is heartwrenching.
No one really focuses on the father, who is usually sitting outside the room waiting for the doctor to come with a black body bag to bring your son away who didn't even have a chance in life but not cause we didn't want him to have but ****ing nature ran its course.

I'm probably going off on a tangent at this point so I'll just bow out.

I remember you posting about that, Bear, when it happened, and I've often thought about you since. Yes I think it's just as awful for the father in a different way, being under pressure to be "strong" and to keep it all together.
I hope you're both doing as well as possible now.

I do just want to say one thing though, which is that the idea that women carry a pregnancy for months and months and then decide they want an abortion is just not true. In the UK where the limit is 24 weeks, the vast majority of all terminations take place before 14 or 15 weeks. Because no woman in her right mind would choose to have a late termination "just because she can".

Late terminations are all for serious reasons. Even the very few that are not medical are for reasons like young girls who were unable to tell anyone before, sometimes because they were the victims of abuse.

That said I have nothing against there being a time limit, if that's what the majority vote for. I just don't think it's actually needed, and may end up causing its own problems. Like women affected by Zika who don't know how badly affected the baby is: if they have to decide before a certain date, they may be pushed into terminating out of fear of the baby being terribly disabled, but they won't actually know. That would be terrible.

PopePalpatine

endacl wrote: »

On an unrelated topic....

Please don’t use the word ‘liberal’ in the Fox News sense. It loses its meaning and makes you sound stupid.

Who cares about logic when there's slut-shaming to be done?

gctest50

Doltanian wrote: »

And it will be No vote believe me, upto €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote, this is one battle Soros will not win. Today is the 100th Anniversary of the Bolshevik takeover and they have cost the lives of over 150million people in Europe in the last century with their destructive policies.

Doltanian wrote: »

And it will be No vote believe me, up to €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote ,

And where is all this money for those that might need a little help after going through heartbreak ?

mahamageehad

volchitsa wrote: »

...In the UK where the limit is 24 weeks, the vast majority of all terminations take place before 14 or 15 weeks. Because no woman in her right mind would choose to have a late termination "just because she can".
...

On that point, 81% of UK abortions in 2016 were performed before 9 weeks, and 92% by 13 weeks. And the trend over the years has been that the average gestational age has been falling. +1 on your point about late abortions, every single one is performed in tragic circumstances, no woman would volunteer herself for that if she had any other choice.

mahamageehad

gctest50 wrote: »

And where is all this money for those that might need a little help after going through heartbreak ?

Yeah, like most of this crowd care. Didn't Youth Defence try and get benefits cut off for single mothers sure? The antichoice extremists don't care one iota for the women involved, or indeed the men. They just want to press their agenda. Not all of em, but the vocal ones are certainly like this.

circadian

Not sure how mods feel about Reddit posts being linked here but this one is something that has stuck with me. https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/5m4lx9/_/

Warning: swearing and graphic description of FFA.

It's from a father's point of view, and imagining what these poor people went through. What thousands of poor people went through, and continue to do so just because others don't want abortion, in any shape or form, drives me up the walls.

Another point, if you're anti abortion and especially if you disagree even in medical conditions you should read it. Read it and tell me you still don't think an abortion was the right thing to do.

kylith

circadian wrote: »

Not sure how mods feel about Reddit posts being linked here but this one is something that has stuck with me. https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/5m4lx9/_/

Warning: swearing and graphic description of FFA.

It's from a father's point of view, and imagining what these poor people went through. What thousands of poor people went through, and continue to do so just because others don't want abortion, in any shape or form, drives me up the walls.

Another point, if you're anti abortion and especially if you disagree even in medical conditions you should read it. Read it and tell me you still don't think an abortion was the right thing to do.

That is just awful. Those poor people. I just wanted to give that poor man a hug

nozzferrahhtoo

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn.

You might benefit from a quick education on the meaning of the word "murder" at which point you will find it does not actually apply, nor should it, to what the vast majority (near totality) of choice based abortion is......... the termination of a fetus in or before week 16 and usually by week 12.

Doltanian wrote: »

One of the most rights is the right to life

Sure it is. But that sentence of yours leaves MUCH unsaid. What exactly ARE rights? When do we assign them? To what? On what basic? By what criteria and pre-requisities?

When you sit down and do more than a "back of a cereal packet" level of introspection on those questions you find that the answers you get tend not to apply to a fetus at 8 12 or 16 weeks gestation.

We are 100% agreed that a right to life is the core foundation right. We simply disagree on when and where that right gets applied.

So your little american-speak bipartisan motivated sound bite does not address the core of the issue. You are trotting out a line as if it defines the differences between us, when in fact it is one of the core things we actually agree on.

And you if you contrive to erode what little common ground actually exists, then discourse will never be possible.

gctest50

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Who cares about logic when there's slut-shaming to be done?

you get a bit of that sometimes

Doltanian wrote: »

Judging by some of the Instagram whores and snapchat sluts I follow we badly need another recession and quick.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

As far as I'm concerned, someone else's rights don't trump mine. I'm not going to put my body or mind through something I'm not able for, or don't want to, to give someone rights. If something's impacting my health or mental wellbeing it's in my best interests to deal with that whatever way I see fit.

NuMarvel

Doltanian wrote: »

Better than taxpayer funded murder of the unborn. One of the most rights is the right to life however liberals obviously don't want to extend that human right to defenceless babies who haven't had the chance to be born or grow.

It's absolutely meaningless to talk about the unborn's human rights if you're not out there looking to repeal the 13th Amendment. 25 years ago, nearly two thirds of voters put a woman’s freedom to travel above the unborn’s right to life, and since then, I’ve not met once single “pro lifer” who wants to reverse that.

maxsmum wrote: »

Maybe someone legal would know whether, if the country voted No in a referendum, we'd still be liable for these payouts under Human Rights law?

We’d still be liable. A No vote wouldn’t absolve us of our obligations under human rights treaties, all of which are treaties we’ve voluntarily entered into. It just makes it harder to reconcile any conflicts that may arise between our laws and those treaties.

January

Doltanian wrote: »

And it will be No vote believe me, upto €1 billion will be pumped into Ireland to ensure it is a No vote, this is one battle Soros will not win. Today is the 100th Anniversary of the Bolshevik takeover and they have cost the lives of over 150million people in Europe in the last century with their destructive policies.

Lol. Soros.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

One billion euro. Giving out free merchandise to people who agree to go canvassing for them, lovely shiny big banners, posters and booklets printed like nobody's business.

And the pro-choice side are the ones rolling in the dough?

Outlaw Pete

Nice to see the lying about the cause of Savita's demise has died down.

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, someone else's rights don't trump mine.

Well, as far as the law is concerned, they can.

I'm not going to put my body or mind through something I'm not able for, or don't want to, to give someone rights.

Cool, well, that's all well and good once what you choose to do is legal wherever it is that you reside but if you were say 30 weeks pregnant and resided in the UK (for example) and took some abortion pills resulting in the death of your baby, you would most likely be imprisoned.

If something's impacting my health or mental wellbeing it's in my best interests to deal with that whatever way I see fit.

Not necessarily. I mean, is prison in your best interests?

Predicted response # 1:

"Who said anything about being 30 weeks pregnant!!?"

Well, you never specified gestational stage, you just said that you would do whatever you want when pregnant.

Predicted response # 2:

"If the baby has a ffa then why....."

I'll stop you there. Total agree with abortions carried out for ffa but again, you never specified such a condition being present.

Predicted response # 3:

"The vast majority of abortions happen long b...."

I'll stop you there again. Yes, the majority of abortions happen long before the gestational stage I used as an example but I did so not to suggest that women are chomping at the bit to have such abortions, but to merely illustrate how yes, you can think anyway you like about what you feel it is that you should be able to do when you are pregnant, but the reality is that in most civilized societies there are laws about what pregnant women can and cannot do with the babies they are carrying and for good reason.

So unless your life is in danger, or the fetus has a ffa, then it might be best if you don't just do "whatever you see fit" just because you "don't want" to be pregnant as you might not like the consequences.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-35121524

gctest50

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Nice to see the lying about the cause of Savita's demise has died down.

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, someone else's rights don't trump mine.

Well, as far as the law is concerned, they can.

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

I'm not going to put my body or mind through something I'm not able for, or don't want to, to give someone rights.

Cool, well, that's all well and good once what you choose to do is legal wherever it is that you reside but if you were say 30 weeks pregnant and resided in the UK (for example) and took some abortion pills resulting in the death of your baby, you would most likely be imprisoned.

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

If something's impacting my health or mental wellbeing it's in my best interests to deal with that whatever way I see fit.

Not necessarily. I mean, is prison in your best interests?

Predicted response # 1:

"Who said anything about being 30 weeks pregnant!!?"

Well, you never specified gestational stage, you just said that you would do whatever you want when pregnant.

Predicted response # 2:

"If the baby has a ffa then why....."

I'll stop you there. Total agree with abortions carried out for ffa but again, you never specified such a condition being present.

Predicted response# 3:

"The vast majority of abortions happen long b...."

I'll stop you there again. Yes, the majority of abortions happen long before the gestational stage I used as an example but I did so not to suggest that women are chomping at the bit to have such abortions, but to merely illustrate how yes, you can think anyway you like about what you feel it is that you should be able to do when you are pregnant, but the reality is that in most civilized societies there are laws about what pregnant women can and cannot do with the babies they are carrying and for good reason.

So unless your life is in danger, or the fetus has a ffa, then it might be best if you don't just do "whatever you see fit" just because you "don't want" to be pregnant as you might not like the consequences.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-35121524

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I'll stop you there again.

How bizzare - Arguing with your own fantasy responses

Frustrated and impatient ?

Everyone else would assume the poster is a normal law abiding person

It would have been easier to ask the poster :

Up to how many weeks do you plan this course of action ?