The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

I would do all I could within reason. Obviously I couldn’t be forceful about it but would be extremely disappointed should they make the wrong discion.

Within reason? Such as?

When you say wrong decision, in accordance with who, you or your 12 yr old pregnant sister?

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

I would do all I could within reason. Obviously I couldn’t be forceful about it but would be extremely disappointed should they make the wrong discion.

If a 12 year old were going to drop a baby headfirst out of a second or third floor window, could you not be "forceful" about stopping them? I would. Without hesitation.

And I'd be a lot more than "extremely disappointed" if I didn't manage to stop them.

So what's the difference? I mean, I see one, but I'm not going round calling women who terminate pregnancies murderers. You're the one doing that.

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

Well I’ll tell you my side of the story. As you know everyone only has one life on this earth therefore life is sacred. An abortion ends a life and the one chance that baby had of a life is gone. That baby will never have a life, this as a result of an abortion (which I personally consider a selfish oact). This is all personal to me as I was informed I would have me aborted should the law have allowed. Therefore the eight amendment saved my life, the life I currently enjoy that only for the eighth I wouldn’t never have seen. Surely you see where I’m coming from and why the eighth is so important to me

Da Boss wrote: »

I would be most totally against it and explain exactly why. In my case I know my mother sister would be of the same opinion as me but say they weren’t I would be against any such thing and would make my stance more than clear to them

But... these two statements contradict each other - if your mother sister (unsure if this is one person or two tbh) is of the same opinion as you than why would they have aborted you??

It's not going to be compulsory you know. Your mother would have had a choice, in fact she did have an 'Irish solution' choice - to travel or not to travel. Perhaps she couldn't afford it of perhaps she chose not to...

Do you know who didn't have a choice? Those women forced into the laundries and those children born into hell holes like Tuam and left to die.

Do you know who else didn't have a choice? Those women denied medical treatment because of the 8th - where was their right to life?

Keeping the 8th doesn't prevent abortions. It prevents women and girls being able to access safe abortions with full medical aftercare at a reasonable cost in their own country.

All the 8th does is force desperate women and girls into desperate measures - debt, buying pills on line, wirehangers.....

hatrickpatrick

This is a very, very, very pointless debate. The issue of whether a foetus counts as a human life is such a deeply held belief either way that attempting to change peoples' minds about it is totally pointless IMO. This referendum will come down to whether more people believe that it does count as a human life, or more people believe that it doesn't. I don't personally believe that there are enough undecideds or open-to-persuasion folks to make any tangible difference on the referendum result.

eviltwin

January wrote: »

There's absolutely no point. You're so staunchly anti choice that nobody could change your mind no matter what they say. I've told you my story, you don't believe me bringing a child into a world of poverty and pushing my already born children into poverty was reason enough for me to have an abortion in my own country without feeling like a criminal. You don't believe the 8th affects the care of pregnant and birthing people.

You won't change your mind so there's no point.

Don't forget he thinks you should be labelled a murderer and go to prison.

Da Boss

pilly wrote: »

If that's true then your mother did a disgusting thing by telling you that and you will never have a rational view on this.

I'm not sure it's true to be honest though because that is a level of cruelty that I don't believe most women to be capable of.

She could in my eyes at least do a more disgusting thing,-have an abortion

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Da Boss

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But... these two statements contradict each other - if your mother sister (unsure if this is one person or two tbh) is of the same opinion as you than why would they have aborted you??

It's not going to be compulsory you know. Your mother would have had a choice, in fact she did have an 'Irish solution' choice - to travel or not to travel. Perhaps she couldn't afford it of perhaps she chose not to...

Do you know who didn't have a choice? Those women forced into the laundries and those children born into hell holes like Tuam and left to die.

Do you know who else didn't have a choice? Those women denied medical treatment because of the 8th - where was their right to life?

Keeping the 8th doesn't prevent abortions. It prevents women and girls being able to access safe abortions with full medical aftercare at a reasonable cost in their own country.

All the 8th does is force desperate women and girls into desperate measures - debt, buying pills on line, wirehangers.....

Indeed however and having seen me alive my mother was shocked as to how she contemplated having an abortion, when she planned having one she’d never thought of the child she was killing, just of herself ( no different to many in this forum) however she is now staunchly anti abortion after seeing me and the shock that she unbeknownst to herself at the time almost denied me my life

Da Boss

Da Boss wrote: »

She could in my eyes at least do a more disgusting thing,-have an abortion

If your mother considered abortion as an (unobtainable) solution to an unplanned pregnancy, she must be pro choice?

Any chance she's using the "you would have been aborted" line as an anti choice argument? Wouldn't be the first time I've heard it (in regards to myself, and my mother too for that matter!)

applehunter

Not often commented on, but I think the reason that Hillary Clinton lost the American Presidential election was her stance on abortion.

Da Boss

Deleted User wrote: »

If your mother considered abortion as an (unobtainable) solution to an unplanned pregnancy, she must be pro choice?

Any chance she's using the "you would have been aborted" line as an anti choice argument? Wouldn't be the first time I've heard it (in regards to myself, and my mother too for that matter!)

I explained the circumstances there above in relation to me mother , read it there that will answer what u asked I think

Da Boss

Da Boss wrote: »

I explained the circumstances there above in relation to me mother , read it there that will answer what u asked I think

It does. We were writing at the same time, it appears.

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

She could in my eyes at least do a more disgusting thing,-have an abortion

Tell me, since you think all life is sacred - do you think it's murder if a clinically brain dead person is no longer being fed via tube and effectively allowed starve to death?
Do you think we need a clause in the Constitution to protect their right to life?

Are you a pacifist?
Are you disgusted that American military personnel are allowed, in uniform, to avail of facilities in Ireland while on route to potentially take a life?

Where do you stand on self-defence? If someone was seriously likely to kill you and the only way to stop them was end their life - would you??

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

Indeed however and having seen me alive my mother was shocked as to how she contemplated having an abortion, when she planned having one she’d never thought of the child she was killing, just of herself ( no different to many in this forum) however she is now staunchly anti abortion after seeing me and the shock that she unbeknownst to herself at the time almost denied me my life

So does your mother think it would have been fair enough to send her to a psychiatric ward, as happened to a pregnant child recently?

After all, she gave up fairly easily apparently - but what if the pregnancy had been far more distressing to her and she had remained determined not to give birth? Or like Ms Y, who was threatened with incarceration and with force feeding iirc.

I don't believe any woman in her right mind could condone that sort of treatment to a young woman or a child.

Da Boss

Many here are saying they won’t engage with me as I’m
So anti abortion. Since there so pro choice should I resist engaging with them too??

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Da Boss

volchitsa wrote: »

So does your mother think it would have been fair enough to send her to a psychiatric ward, as happened to a pregnant child recently?

After all, she gave up fairly easily apparently - but what if the pregnancy had been far more distressing to her and she had remained determined not to give birth? Or like Ms Y, who was threatened with incarceration and with force feeding iirc.

I don't believe any woman in her right mind could condone that sort of treatment to a young woman or a child.

Well I understand it may be a stressful time for a woman,pregnancy that is, but one cannot relieve the stress by ending the life of the child. That is not a acceptable option, that cannot be condoned

Da Boss

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Changed it, happy now?

frag420

frag420 wrote: »

Within reason? Such as?

When you say wrong decision, in accordance with who, you or your 12 yr old pregnant sister?

Da Boss, you have a habit of skipping the tough questions so again I have to call you out to answer them...come on, man up!!

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

Many here are saying they won’t engage with me as I’m
So anti abortion. Since there so anti life should I resist engaging with them too??

Anti-life - is that the latest spin? I am very much in favour of life as it happens -particularly the lives of the already born.

Ah now. I am not the only one who has asked you very valid questions, I have been polite, I have engaged with you, and now it very much appears as if you are running away from debate...

Here's a thought - have you considered asking Pro-Choice people why they are pro-choice?

ohnonotgmail

Da Boss wrote: »

Many here are saying they won’t engage with me as I’m
So anti abortion. Since there so pro choice should I resist engaging with them too??

Is that a threat or a promise?

Da Boss

frag420 wrote: »

Da Boss, you have a habit of skipping the tough questions so again I have to call you out to answer them...come on, man up!!

Wrong descion for everyone,the 12 year old made a morally unacceptable descion which ended the life of another

Da Boss

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Anti-life - is that the latest spin? I am very much in favour of life as it happens -particularly the lives of the already born.

Ah now. I am not the only one who has asked you very valid questions, I have been polite, I have engaged with you, and now it very much appears as if you are running away from debate...

Here's a thought - have you considered asking Pro-Choice people why they are pro-choice?

Indeed I have, and not one if they had mentioned in any way the unborn child

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

Indeed however and having seen me alive my mother was shocked as to how she contemplated having an abortion, when she planned having one she’d never thought of the child she was killing, just of herself ( no different to many in this forum) however she is now staunchly anti abortion after seeing me and the shock that she unbeknownst to herself at the time almost denied me my life

Does that mean if she hadn't seen you she would be pro-choice??

Again I repeat - abortion would not be compulsory.

Your mother contemplated. She made a decision not to. She is glad she, personally, made that decision.

That is not the case for everyone. Some people regret having children. It;s not all sunshine and lollipops you know. For some people a pregnancy means dire poverty. Continued health problems that seriously impact on their quality of life - and ability to provide care for others. Death.

Women have died.
Where was their right to life???

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

Well I understand it may be a stressful time for a woman,pregnancy that is, but one cannot relieve the stress by ending the life of the child. That is not a acceptable option, that cannot be condoned

That's an opinion, nothing more. And doesn't actually answer the question.

Ah well.

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

Indeed I have, and not one if they had mentioned in any way the unborn child

Child?
Do think an embryo with no brain function is a child?
I would say it is a potential child.

Since you are probably going to say yes - care to answer my question about the brain dead person's life support being turned off? Is that, in your opinion, murder?

Da Boss

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Anti-life - is that the latest spin? I am very much in favour of life as it happens -particularly the lives of the already born.

Ah now. I am not the only one who has asked you very valid questions, I have been polite, I have engaged with you, and now it very much appears as if you are running away from debate...

Here's a thought - have you considered asking Pro-Choice people why they are pro-choice?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Does that mean if she hadn't seen you she would be pro-choice??

Again I repeat - abortion would not be compulsory.

Your mother contemplated. She made a decision not to. She is glad she, personally, made that decision.

That is not the case for everyone. Some people regret having children. It;s not all sunshine and lollipops you know. For some people a pregnancy means dire poverty. Continued health problems that seriously impact on their quality of life - and ability to provide care for others. Death.

Women have died.
Where was their right to life???

yes however if the eighth wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion and ended a life,intentionally ending a life is unacceptable in any circumstances! My mother realized her mistake and it’s a mistake she ensuring others don’t make. Many people don’t think of the life there denying by having an abortion that’s the issue

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

Wrong descion for everyone,the 12 year old made a morally unacceptable descion which ended the life of another

Any chance of a reply to this?

volchitsa wrote: »

If a 12 year old were going to drop a baby headfirst out of a second or third floor window, could you not be "forceful" about stopping them? I would. Without hesitation.

And I'd be a lot more than "extremely disappointed" if I didn't manage to stop them.

So what's the difference? I mean, I see one, but I'm not going round calling women who terminate pregnancies murderers. You're the one doing that.

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

I would be most totally against it and explain exactly why. In my case I know my mother sister would be of the same opinion as me but say they weren’t I would be against any such thing and would make my stance more than clear to them

frag420 wrote: »

Yeah we get that, what i am asking you is what would you do to stop them traveling for an abortion? What would you do to save the potential babies life?

If all you are going to do is make your stance clear then again I shall call you out as weak and ball-less as you don't really give a crap about the potential life you claim to want to save!!

So I ask you again, what would you do to stop them travelling for an abortion?

Da Boss wrote: »

I would do all I could within reason. Obviously I couldn’t be forceful about it but would be extremely disappointed should they make the wrong discion.

frag420 wrote: »

Within reason? Such as?

When you say wrong decision, in accordance with who, you or your 12 yr old pregnant sister?

Da Boss wrote: »

Wrong descion for everyone,the 12 year old made a morally unacceptable descion which ended the life of another

Again you have chickened out of answering the question so I again will ask you...

Apart from telling them you are disappointed in them, what would you do to save the life of the unborn in this instance??

What would you do that is within reason so save the life of the unborn in this instance?

and do you think a 12 yr old is mature enough to look after a child let alone go through 9 months of pregnancy?

We shall assume that if you skip this again that you are even more ball-less and weaker than we thought previously!

And just so you know, much like EOTR I am discussing this in private via PM with some people on your side who know how to have a proper discussion and like EOTR they are frankly embarrassed by you and your pathetic arguments!

Da Boss

volchitsa wrote: »

Any chance of a reply to this?

Off the point irrelevant

eviltwin

Da Boss wrote: »

yes however if the eighth wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion and ended a life,intentionally ending a life is unacceptable in any circumstances! My mother realized her mistake and it’s a mistake she ensuring others don’t make. Many people don’t think of the life there denying by having an abortion that’s the issue

My abortion wasn't a mistake

end of the road

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Keeping the 8th doesn't prevent abortions. It prevents women and girls being able to access safe abortions with full medical aftercare at a reasonable cost in their own country.

All the 8th does is force desperate women and girls into desperate measures - debt, buying pills on line, wirehangers.....

buying pills and using wire hangers are absolutely a concern, but the rest is just a case of you want it so pay for it. i certainly agree the after care should be availible due to the high risks after the abortion but if people want an abortion due to lifestyle or other non-extreme reasons then them getting into debt and having to go abroad is their problem ultimately, and it's not the state's job to provide abortion on demand, especially free ones.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tell me, since you think all life is sacred - do you think it's murder if a clinically brain dead person is no longer being fed via tube and effectively allowed starve to death?

given that they are being allowed to suffer in the name of ending their life i would say it is at least cruelty, even a crime against humanity. they should be given an injection that would allow them to go quickly. done that way, then it wouldn't be an issue. but slowly starving someone to death is wrong in my view and we need to remove that and bann it.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you disgusted that American military personnel are allowed, in uniform, to avail of facilities in Ireland while on route to potentially take a life?

i am yes . it's putting my country at greater risk of a terrorist attack.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Where do you stand on self-defence? If someone was seriously likely to kill you and the only way to stop them was end their life - would you??

i would only use reasonable force.

Da Boss

frag420 wrote: »

Again you have chickened out of answering the question so I again will ask you...

Apart from telling them you are disappointed in them, what would you do to save the life of the unborn in this instance??

What would you do that is within reason so save the life of the unborn in this instance?

and do you think a 12 yr old is mature enough to look after a child let alone go through 9 months of pregnancy?

We shall assume that if you skip this again that you are even more ball-less and weaker than we thought previously!

And just so you know, much like EOTR I am discussing this in private via PM with some people on your side who know how to have a proper discussion and like EOTR they are frankly embarrassed by you and your pathetic arguments!

No pro choice people have any time for listening so why should I bother explaining. It’s my opinion that abortion is killing of defenseless unborn so for that reason I’m against abortion as I believe it constitutes killing, simple as that
U

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

yes however if the eighth wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion and ended a life,intentionally ending a life is unacceptable in any circumstances! My mother realized her mistake and it’s a mistake she ensuring others don’t make. Many people don’t think of the life there denying by having an abortion that’s the issue

Your mother made a choice. A choice you seek to deny others.

Brain dead person is alive.
Is deliberately ending that life unacceptable?

Da Boss

eviltwin wrote: »

My abortion wasn't a mistake

How u know? U killed a child. If you hadn’t made ur mistake Ud probably have a child to love right now and Ud
agree with me

NuMarvel

Da Boss wrote: »

Many here are saying they won’t engage with me as I’m
So anti abortion. Since there so pro choice should I resist engaging with them too??

People aren't engaging with you because you're not extending the same courtesy to them. You're being deliberately belligerent and won't (or can't) engage in good faith with them.

Which is pretty much what I predicted you'd continue to do the last time I responded to you.

Da Boss

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Your mother made a choice. A choice you seek to deny others.

Brain dead person is alive.
Is deliberately ending that life unacceptable?

My mother couldn’t make a choice, that’s the point I’m making. That meant she’d to carry me and she’s happy she done so having realized she’d otherwise have being a murderer. Regards brain dead people your again off topic

eviltwin

Da Boss wrote: »

How u know? U killed a child. If you hadn’t made ur mistake Ud probably have a child to love right now and Ud
agree with me

I didn't make a mistake. I know my own mind. I made my choice under careful consideration and I knew it was the right one. I have never felt any regret and if I could go back and make a different choice I wouldn't.

FYI my abortion was at nine weeks, it wasnt a child.

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

Off the point irrelevant

So you call a woman who has had an abortion a murderer, but you won't tell us why it would not be right to physically prevent a child from killing another child.

Looks like physical cowardice to me. You're up for calling people names, well, anonymous ones behind a screen anyway, but you wouldn't be prepared to act to save a baby's life.

Da Boss

NuMarvel wrote: »

People aren't engaging with you because you're not extending the same courtesy to them. You're being deliberately belligerent and won't (or can't) engage in good faith with them.

Which is pretty much what I predicted you'd continue to do the last time I responded to you.

Seriously, out of interest, how is it I’m not engaging with good faith?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

My mother couldn’t make a choice, that’s the point I’m making. That meant she’d to carry me and she’s happy she done so having realized she’d otherwise have being a murderer. Regards brain dead people your again off topic

Should she have been force fed if necessary? Like Ms Y was threatened? Or the child we learned was put in a mental hospital last summer?

Doctor Jimbob

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Presenting scenarios that clearly show a fetus isn't analogous to a life = off topic :pac:

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

No pro choice people have any time for listening so why should I bother explaining. It’s my opinion that abortion is killing of defenseless unborn so for that reason I’m against abortion as I believe it constitutes killing, simple as that
U

I'm listening thats why I have asked you several times!?

So again what would you do to stop your 12 yr old sister from going abroad to get an abortion?

Surely the unborn deserve to know what you are willing to do to save them from abortion?

Man up!!

Bannasidhe

end of the road wrote: »

buying pills and using wire hangers are absolutely a concern, but the rest is just a case of you want it so pay for it. i certainly agree the after care should be availible due to the high risks after the abortion but if people want an abortion due to lifestyle or other non-extreme reasons then them getting into debt and having to go abroad is their problem ultimately, and it's not the state's job to provide abortion on demand, especially free ones.

Wire hangers are a reality. We need to either allow it to continue or remove the need.

'Lifestyle' - much bandied about during the marriage equality campaign again but hard to define. What exactly do you mean by lifestyle? Do you think people should be routinely denied medical procedures due to lifestyle? Smokers? Drinkers? Cyclists? Participants in sports? Lovers of fast food?

Are you saying abortion should be illegal but the State should provide aftercare?

Why is it the State's job to provide medication to aid people with erectile dysfunction?
Or lung cancer due to smoking?

This whole 'lifestyle' route you're taking is a very rocky road.

given that they are being allowed to suffer in the name of ending their life i would say it is at least cruelty, even a crime against humanity. they should be given an injection that would allow them to go quickly. done that way, then it wouldn't be an issue. but slowly starving someone to death is wrong in my view and we need to remove that and bann it.

Do you think we need this in the Constitution? Should people be prosecuted? Is it murder??

i am yes . it's putting my country at greater risk of a terrorist attack.

What are you doing about it?

i would only use reasonable force.

But would you be prepared to kill your attacker if that was the only option that seemed open to you?

dr.fuzzenstein

Da Boss wrote: »

My mother couldn’t make a choice, that’s the point I’m making. That meant she’d to carry me and she’s happy she done so having realized she’d otherwise have being a murderer. Regards brain dead people your again off topic

It is fairly clear that you have an unwavering viewpoint and that you will not change it under any circumstances.
While it is admirable if genuine, it does make discussion with you somewhat pointless.
If something is absolutely black and white and clearcut to a person, there is no point even trying to convince that person otherwise.
Some posters just have to realize that some battles are pointless, it is the majority that has to be won and it will never happen that everyone agrees.

Bannasidhe

Da Boss wrote: »

My mother couldn’t make a choice, that’s the point I’m making. That meant she’d to carry me and she’s happy she done so having realized she’d otherwise have being a murderer. Regards brain dead people your again off topic

She did make a choice.

She decided not to travel.
She decided not to give you up for adoption.
She decided not to commit suicide.

applehunter

eviltwin wrote: »

I didn't make a mistake. I know my own mind. I made my choice under careful consideration and I knew it was the right one. I have never felt any regret and if I could go back and make a different choice I wouldn't.

FYI my abortion was at nine weeks, it wasnt a child.

Sounds like a coping mechanism.

Dehumanise then kill.

It's easier that way.

captbarnacles

So his mother was glad state forced her to carry to term and hence other women shouldn't have a choice because they don't 'really' know what they want and will inevitably love motherhood

volchitsa

captbarnacles wrote: »

So his mother was glad state forced her to carry to term and hence other women shouldn't have a choice because they don't 'really' know what they want and will inevitably love motherhood

Funny none of these women ever seem to feel strongly enough about this to come out and say so themselves isn't it?

If she told her son, you'd think she'd want to let other women know at first hand.

They're the ones she'd need to influence, surely? Not her poor son who's clearly traumatized by the idea that he had such a narrow escape.