The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Kurtosis

end of the road wrote: »

i already said yes, i still believe abortion on demand must not be availible in ireland though. we have real issues to sort first IMO.

So which are the real issues that once we've sorted, you'll be happy for "abortion on demand" to be introduced?

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

It does, it 100% does. The two statements contradict each other which is why I asked for clarification.
You can’t say you trust women and in your next breath say you support the problem being exported to the UK as it makes people ‘really think’.
If you really trusted women, you would believe they would ‘really think’ about it, regardless of where the abortion took place.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

sondagefaux

end of the road wrote: »

NuMarvel wrote: »

So killing someone is wrong (because that's how you view abortion) unless the woman can show they really want to do it, in which case, off with them, you won't do anything to stop them. And you call yourself pro life...

I hope you never become a bodyguard, because your clients are guaranteed goners with that attitude!

no . i'm against abortion on demand full stop, however i cannot stop someone from traveling abroad to procure one. i can only vote to hopefully stop it within this state. your post is a false representation/twisting of my point into what you wanted it to read.

You can if you want to. You might end up in prison but if you really wanted to you could.

More realistically, there's nothing to stop you from campaigning for the repeal of the article in the constitution which permits women to leave the state to get abortions.

Finally, if you want women to 'really think' about getting an abortion, why not call for the law to require women to notify their intent to get an abortion, with a mandatory waiting period of three weeks between notification and actually getting the abortion, along with a legal requirement to get counselling about their intentions during the three week waiting period?

There could be exceptions for urgent cases where lives are in danger etc.

I mean if you don't think women are capable of making these decisions on their own, or think that they might make decisions hastily, a mandatory waiting period and mandatory counselling make sense, right?

captbarnacles

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't imply i don't trust them at all. try again.
the current system is deterring some abortions and those who really want them are funding it themselves. IMO that is a small win for society. it would be a bigger win if there was no threat of abortion on demand being legislated for so that the 8th could be repealed with full support so that the other issues that the act does cause, which actually do need solving, could be dealt with once and for all.

Is it ok with you that this 'small win' is at the expense of people who cannot afford an abortion?

RobertKK

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

One eyed Jack

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

That statement carries as much meaning as me saying "abortion has no place in modern Ireland", because society has progressed a massive amount in the last 30 odd years!

You asked the question does EOTR trust women, and by that I assume you mean does the person you're asking trust women to make decisions for themselves when they have the full capacity and freedom and resources to make decisions for themselves. On that basis, yes, of course I trust women.

The people I don't trust is anyone who would exploit someone else's lack of decision making capacity to coerce anyone into making decisions they wouldn't normally make for themselves that aren't in their best interests, but which serve the interests of those people encouraging them towards an outcome which suits that persons best interests.

sondagefaux

RobertKK wrote: »

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To a lot of people the current state of affairs is perfectly fine.
Quietly export the problem to the UK and proclaim proudly "There is no abortion in Ireland!"
If hypocrisy was an Olympic sport, Ireland would win gold, silver and bronze every time.

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

The problem with that analogy is that abortion is not tax. In many cases, it is simply not possible for a woman to travel to get an abortion because of poor health, or in some cases, a woman who travels for an abortion may face greater risks of death or damage to her long term health as a result of the travel.

If you need an abortion to help save your eyesight (a real life example is the Tysiac case from Poland: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tysiąc_v_Poland), the extra stress on your body caused by a long journey could make it difficult for you to leave the state to have an abortion.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

There is a large public appetite in favour of repealing. If it doesn’t go through this time, it will in the future. It’s just a case of when.

sondagefaux

RobertKK wrote: »

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

...and if people vote against repealing for a 12 week no limits abortion regime, then what?
Will the repeal side move on?

Why should they 'move on'? Has the decision of the US Supreme Court in Roe vs Wade (which effectively legalised abortion in the USA) led to the anti-choice movement in the USA moving on?

Ireland is a democracy. The absolute essence of democracy is the ability to change past decisions. If the upcoming referendum does not result in the current constitutional restrictions on abortion being removed, nobody should have to drop their wish to see that changed.

Equally, if the upcoming referendum does change the Constitution, anti-choice campaigners have every right to continue to campaign for what they want.

Democracy isn't a one-off event. It's an ongoing process. Just because you find yourself on the losing side of a vote doesn't mean you have to stop campaigning for what you believe in or that you can't campaign for the result of that vote to be changed through another vote.

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It does, it 100% does. The two statements contradict each other which is why I asked for clarification.
You can’t say you trust women and in your next breath say you support the problem being exported to the UK as it makes people ‘really think’.
If you really trusted women, you would believe they would ‘really think’ about it, regardless of where the abortion took place.

it 100% doesn't. the 2 statements don't contradict each other at all. i can say i trust women and disagree with abortion being availible in ireland outside extreme circumstances.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In 1983, contraception had only been legalised 3 years previously. Divorce and same sex marriage we’re still illegal.
Society has progressed a massive amount since then, and has moved on. The 8th amendment has no place in modern Ireland.

as a whole it doesn't, but the bit that gives protection to the unborn does.

captbarnacles wrote: »

Is it ok with you that this 'small win' is at the expense of people who cannot afford an abortion?

i believe the protections remaining for the unborn being at the expence of affordible abortion within the state is for the best yes . sometimes choices have to be made for the greater good of society.

RobertKK

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

There is a large public appetite in favour of repealing. If it doesn’t go through this time, it will in the future. It’s just a case of when.

I don't know anyone who is supporting repeal in my circle of friends. It is not like the marriage referendum where it wasn't a life and death matter. that had a 12% margin over the 50%. There won't be a large appetite for what is being proposed to replace it. The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.
Even the Taoiseach thinks the open ended 12 week any reason abortion proposal makes it questionable if the referendum will pass.

Loafing Oaf

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don’t think so. I honestly can’t see it failing, but on the off chance it does, I would be expecting another referendum over the next couple of years.

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

thee glitz

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

uptherebels

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

why?

Da Boss

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Loafing Oaf

uptherebels wrote: »

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect another referendum on the issue in "a couple of years."

why?

Just very difficult politically, the government would be accused of asking the same question over and over until it got the answer it wanted.

Akrasia

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

bodily autonomy is a right.

The next time someone from the government turns up telling you that you have been conscripted into a medical drug trial you might remember that.

We value autonomy so much that we don't harvest organs from the dead without express consent even if doing so would save the lives of innocent children

One eyed Jack

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here.

That statement actually shows a terrible lack of faith in the Irish electorate in that they must only have have 'seen sense' according to you, if a referendum on the issue fails. Seems a tad egotistical, not to mention that you're unlikely to see anyone's face on here regardless of the outcome of any referendum.

Personally, I wouldn't be so confident of the outcome either way, as contrary to earlier opinion I really don't think there is actually that much of an appetite for change in this country, let alone much of an interest in the issue of abortion. I imagine the electoral turnout will be somewhere along the lines of 60% with a 55/45 split in the vote that could go in either direction.

They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

I doubt there will be anyone that shocked, fatigued probably, but not shocked, and I wouldn't encourage any goading of either side no matter the outcome of the referendum. I really don't see it having any significant effect on Irish society at local and community level, but I expect to see the effects at national level in say about 50 years time when we can gather enough data to observe trends to see an overall picture rather than arguing using a handful of outlier cases.

NuMarvel

thee glitz wrote: »

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

Polls say that the type of change being proposed and discussed is favoured by the majority of people,so pro choicers are the ones in the middle on this.

But even if that wasn't the case, realistically, repeal needs to happen to effect any type of change. The Constitution isn't the place to try and provide for abortion, and the 8th has shown us that. That was supposed to be a simple provision to bolster the existing statutory ban on abortion, and it has resulted in numerous cases in the High and Supreme Courts, four, soon to be five, referendums, and Ireland cited for breaches of human rights on multiple occasions. And that's all on a national level, without getting into the effect it has on individual people.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the AG back in 1983 argued against the text that was voted on. In his words, "the subject matter of the amendment sought is of such complexity, involves so many matters of medical and scientific, moral and jurisprudential expertise as to be incapable of accurate encapsulation into a simple constitution-type provision." That , especially the bolded part, holds true to pretty much anything we'd put into the constitution about abortion.

_Dara_

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Ok, this is something that I have never delved into on these threads because it isn't relevant, and could be perceived as point scoring, but seeing as your response was so aggressive, I will tell you something.
I have had a crisis, unplanned pregnancy. At quite a young age. I progressed with the pregnancy. I kept the baby. I ended up having a stillbirth, but the point remains.
So don't for a minute tell me I'm pro abortion. I'm not.
I still support having a choice for others. Its not a choice I would make for myself but who knows what the future holds.
It is possible to be both. I am both.

All that would make you pro-choice in general and in your own life. Proceeding with the crisis pregnancy is consistent with a pro-choice stance. Pro-choice and pro-abortion aren’t synonymous. By making a distinction by saying you are pro-life for yourselves makes it seem like you are saying they ARE synonymous. The choice bit means the choose between continuing with the pregnancy and having an abortion.

SusieBlue

_Dara_ wrote: »

All that would make you pro-choice in general and in your own life. Proceeding with the crisis pregnancy is consistent with a pro-choice stance. Pro-choice and pro-abortion aren’t synonymous. By making a distinction by saying you are pro-life for yourselves makes it seem like you are saying they ARE synonymous. The choice bit means the choose between continuing with the pregnancy and having an abortion.

I would agree that in a general sense I am pro choice, totally.
My explanation about being pro life was to show that you can support giving women a choice while not being in favour of abortion for yourself.
That it is possible to want to repeal without wanting an abortion in your own circumstances.

I then made the point you quoted when someone else said I was 100% pro abortion and didn’t have a pro life bone in my body, or something to that effect. Which simply isn’t true.
I ageee in a wider sense I’m pro choice, though.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

it 100% doesn't. the 2 statements don't contradict each other at all. i can say i trust women and disagree with abortion being availible in ireland outside extreme circumstances.



as a whole it doesn't, but the bit that gives protection to the unborn does.



i believe the protections remaining for the unborn being at the expence of affordible abortion within the state is for the best yes . sometimes choices have to be made for the greater good of society.

If you really don’t see how you are contradicting yourself then there is absolutely no point in taking this any further.

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't know anyone who is supporting repeal in my circle of friends. It is not like the marriage referendum where it wasn't a life and death matter. that had a 12% margin over the 50%. There won't be a large appetite for what is being proposed to replace it. The thing is a far more restricted regime to replce the 8th would have had a far higher chance than the open ended recommendation which was a dream for people who want no change as it makes it far easier to campaign against.
Even the Taoiseach thinks the open ended 12 week any reason abortion proposal makes it questionable if the referendum will pass.

And on the contrary, everyone in my circle, from work colleagues to elderly relatives, are in support of repealing.
I wouldn’t hold much weight in the Taoiseach, public support for him is at all all time low and he is afraid of doing anything that will rock the boat.
I don’t think it’ll be a landslide win by all means, if it passes it will be by a very small margin.

Candamir

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

Who are the pro abortion contingent here? I haven’t seen any evidence of anyone advocating that women should have abortions. Only that women should have a choice in what they do. And as has been said, those same people would rather see no abortions be needed, so in that sense are very much ‘pro life’.

SEPT 23 1989

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

They think it will be like the marraige equality referendum

Nothing could be further from the truth

NuMarvel

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I would agree that in a general sense I am pro choice, totally.
My explanation about being pro life was to show that you can support giving women a choice while not being in favour of abortion for yourself.
That it is possible to want to repeal without wanting an abortion in your own circumstances.

I then made the point you quoted when someone else said I was 100% pro abortion and didn’t have a pro life bone in my body, or something to that effect. Which simply isn’t true.
I ageee in a wider sense I’m pro choice, though.

We have a "pro life" poster who won't stop women having abortions if they've "really thought about" whether they want one, and another who might stop someone having one, but he wouldn't be "unreasonable" about it.

If it's okay for them to describe themselves as pro life, then you definitely can, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

SusieBlue

thee glitz wrote: »

Most people do want at least some change, but 'some change' is not (widely) being discussed. It suits pro-choicers to use special circumstance cases to have those in the middle potentially be repealers rather than what that group want be a possibility, bounded by the constitution.

Well I can only speak for myself but I have posted at length here about the other implications of the 8th, from maternity care, to consent.
I think any reason deemed good enough by a woman and her doctor is good enough to procure an abortion, if she feels it’s the best decision. Even more so in the cases of FFA and special circumstances, but I’m in support of leaving that decision up to the woman.

SusieBlue

Da Boss wrote: »

When the Irish electorate in the majority hopefully see sense and the referendum fails, I can’t wait to see the faces on some of the pro abortion contingent here. They seem to consider abortion as some sort of “right” and are so blinded they see no wrong. There will be IMO some shocked pro abortion people here on boards after referendum

Legal abortion will be available in this country at some point in the near future. This is undeniable.
I’m not saying it will be in the next referendum, but it will be passed eventually.
However, you have nothing to worry about; because you will never be forced to have an abortion.
Men and women will finally be equal in terms of bodily autonomy. Every aspect of pregnancy will be safer. I can’t wait for Ireland to join every other progressive modern country in the world.

Edward M

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well I can only speak for myself but I have posted at length here about the other implications of the 8th, from maternity care, to consent.
I think any reason deemed good enough by a woman and her doctor is good enough to procure an abortion, if she feels it’s the best decision. Even more so in the cases of FFA and special circumstances, but I’m in support of leaving that decision up to the woman.

By a woman and her doctor?
So if a doctor deems it unnecessary she shouldn't have it?
I honestly didn't get that from your previous posts!

SusieBlue

Edward M wrote: »

By a woman and her doctor?
So if a doctor deems it unnecessary she shouldn't have it?
I honestly didn't get that from your previous posts!

I’ll word it better. I feel it’s between a woman and her doctor and it’s none of my business.

uptherebels

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They think it will be like the marraige equality referendum

Nothing could be further from the truth

and you have evidence to back that claim up?

One eyed Jack

WhiteRoses wrote: »

My explanation about being pro life was to show that you can support giving women a choice while not being in favour of abortion for yourself.
That it is possible to want to repeal without wanting an abortion in your own circumstances.

WhiteRoses while I do get what you're saying, the bit in bold is I think anyway what causes confusion for people. You're not in favour of abortion for yourself. Well, isn't that a choice that you have made, for yourself?

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I can’t wait for Ireland to join every other progressive modern country in the world.

And again, that statement only works if you imagine that the availability of abortion is a determining factor in what constitutes a progressive modern country. By that standard, China is a progressive modern country. Less said about America the better.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

uptherebels

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And again, that statement only works if you imagine that the availability of abortion is a determining factor in what constitutes a progressive modern country. By that standard, China is a progressive modern country. Less said about America the better.

or if you see it as the removal of a law that hinders the medical care of pregnant women;)

SusieBlue

One eyed Jack wrote: »

WhiteRoses while I do get what you're saying, the bit in bold is I think anyway what causes confusion for people.

Yeah I can accept why it might come across that way, that’s why I explained myself a bit more. In the general sense I think it’s easier for me to just identify as pro choice.
The point I was trying to make was that I’m not pro abortion.You're not in favour of abortion for yourself. Well, isn't that a choice that you have made, for yourself?

And again, that statement only works if you imagine that the availability of abortion is a determining factor in what constitutes a progressive modern country. By that standard, China is a progressive modern country. Less said about America the better.

Absolutely. It’s one of many definitely factors in progressiveness. Not the only one. It’s just a particularly important one at the moment given the referendum.

Kurtosis

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And again, that statement only works if you imagine that the availability of abortion is a determining factor in what constitutes a progressive modern country. By that standard, China is a progressive modern country. Less said about America the better.

Abortion may be a determining factor but not the only one. Not all countries with abortion may be progressive and modern.

Bannasidhe

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Yeah I can accept why it might come across that way, that’s why I explained myself a bit more. In the general sense I think it’s easier for me to just identify as pro choice.
The point I was trying to make was that I’m not pro abortion.You're not in favour of abortion for yourself. Well, isn't that a choice that you have made, for yourself?






Absolutely. It’s one of many definitely factors in progressiveness. Not the only one. It’s just a particularly important one at the moment given the referendum.

I understand completely what you are saying.

While I, personally couldn't have seen myself choosing to have an abortion (can't say never would have because if I had ever been pregnant with a fetus that was not compatible with life then, having considered the options, I probably would have chosen to end that pregnancy), it is not my right to make that choice for other women.

I wish abortion wasn't necessary. I wish there was 100% safe contraception, no rape, no foetal abnormalities, no poverty, no addictions, no AIDS, no medical complications, basic income so parents/guardians were not forced to work outside the home out of economic necessity, affordable childcare, equal parental leave, equal pay....

Mainly I wish we had a country where every single child born is wanted and cherished.

But - I am a realist and no matter how much I wish for utopia it's not going to happen so I will work for a country where women have children because they want to rather than a country where women have children because they have no choice, where on-line pills and wire hangers are consigned to the past, where every female truly controls what happens to her own body - as least as far as medical procedure are concerned.

I am pro-choice because the only body I get to say what happens to it is my own, and what I choose to do with is is no bodies business but my own.

One eyed Jack

uptherebels wrote: »

or if you see it as the removal of a law that hinders the medical care of pregnant women;)

Ahh right, that explains why I didn't understand the point, because I don't see it as a law that hinders the medical care of pregnant women. I see it as a law that protects the right to life of the unborn.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Absolutely. It’s one of many definitely factors in progressiveness. Not the only one. It’s just a particularly important one at the moment given the referendum.

I get what you mean, I guess the difference is in how both of us would define a progressive society, and if I were to be fair to you, earlier in the discussion pilly mentioned the example of Sweden. I wouldn't think of Sweden as a progressive society, I would think of Sweden as a failed economic experiment, and as the saying goes, "a picture paints a thousand words", or graph at least, in this case -




Source: Economic Survey of Sweden 2017
(OECD btw, so not exactly pulling it out of my arse!)

Spanish Eyes

County Roscommon will decide this.

nice_guy80

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

County Roscommon will decide this.

hopefully
how did we get on in the last one?

Annasopra

RobertKK wrote: »

But people voted for the 8th amendment in 1983, it is not like it was imposed on the country, it was the choice of the people, it doesn't matter if people use their choice to go to the UK, we are not obliged to have the same laws as other countries, even if people want to avail of them like abortion, to pay less tax, work opportunities, drug use etc.

Yeah. And now we can give them the opportunity to repeal the 8th.

nice_guy80

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I understand completely what you are saying.

While I, personally couldn't have seen myself choosing to have an abortion (can't say never would have because if I had ever been pregnant with a fetus that was not comparable with life then, having considered the options, I probably would have chosen to end that pregnancy), it is not my right to make that choice for other women.

I wish abortion wasn't necessary. I wish there was 100% safe contraception, no rape, no foetal abnormalities, no poverty, no addictions, no AIDS, no medical complications, basic income so parents/guardians were not forced to work outside the home out of economic necessity, affordable childcare, equal parental leave, equal pay....

Mainly I wish we had a country where every single child born is wanted and cherished.

But - I am a realist and no matter how much I wish for utopia it's not going to happen so I will work for a country where women have children because they want to rather than a country where women have children because they have no choice, where on-line pills and wire hangers are consigned to the past, where every female truly controls what happens to her own body - as least as far as medical procedure are concerned.

I am pro-choice because the only body I get to say what happens to it is my own, and what I choose to do with is is no bodies business but my own.

exactly
should be your choice and not based on law due to the teachings of some religious sect

volchitsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

WhiteRoses while I do get what you're saying, the bit in bold is I think anyway what causes confusion for people. You're not in favour of abortion for yourself. Well, isn't that a choice that you have made, for yourself?

Well of course. That's why it's called pro-choice and not pro-abortion, despite how the other side would have it. In fact you're (unwittingly I assume) making the case that they should be called anti choice, since it's the "choice" bit that seems to puzzle you so.

Whereas in fact someone choosing not to terminate a pregnancy is as much of a right for pro choice as the right to terminate it.

Annasopra

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They think it will be like the marraige equality referendum

Nothing could be further from the truth

I dont think it will be like that at all. I dont know anyone who thinks that either.

thee glitz

NuMarvel wrote: »

Polls say that the type of change being proposed and discussed is favoured by the majority of people,so pro choicers are the ones in the middle on this.

Nothing to fear so for hard pro-choicers in finding out what people really want, since it's established that it's what they want.

But even if that wasn't the case, realistically, repeal needs to happen to effect any type of change.

It does - I'm saying there's a greater chance of that happening if the implications of doing so are restricted

The Constitution isn't the place to try and provide for abortion, and the 8th has shown us that.

It's a good place to generally prohibit it. The 8th is what we have now - can we do better?

Ireland cited for breaches of human rights on multiple occasions.

By the UN I believe - on what grounds other than they say so though?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the AG back in 1983 argued against the text that was voted on. In his words, "the subject matter of the amendment sought is of such complexity, involves so many matters of medical and scientific, moral and jurisprudential expertise as to be incapable of accurate encapsulation into a simple constitution-type provision." That , especially the bolded part, holds true to pretty much anything we'd put into the constitution about abortion.

Change it ye, but give the people something they can support in big numbers.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well I can only speak for myself but I have posted at length here about the other implications of the 8th, from maternity care, to consent.

I haven't given enough consideration to the implications on consent to give a reply that I would be confidently contented with. It would / will be based on a reasonability basis with regard to the health of the mother and baby.

I think any reason deemed good enough by a woman and her doctor is good enough to procure an abortion, if she feels it’s the best decision.

So any reason, potentially - doctor shopping, anyone?

Even more so in the cases of FFA and special circumstances, but I’m in support of leaving that decision up to the woman.

Even more so in these cases is my point, and this should be recognised and allowed to be voted on.

Annasopra

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh right, that explains why I didn't understand the point, because I don't see it as a law that hinders the medical care of pregnant women. I see it as a law that protects the right to life of the unborn.

It is though. That is the really crazy thing here. The 8th amendment isnt just about abortion at all. It has a number of negative impacts for maternity services and those who are pregnant.

thee glitz

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It is though. That is the really crazy thing here. The 8th amendment isnt just about abortion at all. It has a number of negative impacts for maternity services and those who are pregnant.

But is abortion on demand the only solution?

end of the road

Akrasia wrote: »

bodily autonomy is a right.

The next time someone from the government turns up telling you that you have been conscripted into a medical drug trial you might remember that.

We value autonomy so much that we don't harvest organs from the dead without express consent even if doing so would save the lives of innocent children

and as said if this was about bodily autonomy there would be 100% support for repeal of the 8th.
however killing the unborn bar extreme circumstances goes out of the threshold where it would be reasonable to consider an act as exercising bodily autonomy.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Legal abortion will be available in this country at some point in the near future. This is undeniable.
I’m not saying it will be in the next referendum, but it will be passed eventually.
However, you have nothing to worry about; because you will never be forced to have an abortion.
Men and women will finally be equal in terms of bodily autonomy. Every aspect of pregnancy will be safer. I can’t wait for Ireland to join every other progressive modern country in the world.

men and women would be equal in terms of bodily autonomy without the availability of abortion on demand. that is why the government should decide not to legislate for abortion on demand as that way the 8th could be repealed with full support of irish society. bodily autonomy would be equal, the unborn would be protected as much as is practical, and the other issues the 8th cause which are of concern across the board could be removed once and for all. it really is the only way the 8th has got a huge chance of being repealed. currently the chance is very very slim.