Civil service

Katie9

Hi,

I'm a middle ranking, very hard working civil servant.

Promotion competition has just been advertised.

I feel I have the competencies for the post, and would do an excellent job, however one pretty major stumbling block....

Female high level manager two grades above me harrassed me relentlessly for over 6 months, until I eventually stood up for myself- not out of courage, but rather I experienced another horrible incident that was just one incident too many- I politely, but firmly, expressed my concern at her behaviour...she has left me alone ever since, to the extent that she blanks me when she can, takes work off me without consultation, doesn't reply to e.mails for some days or not at all, etc.

This manager, two grades above me, will be on the board of three interviewers!

(She also previously blocked me getting promotions to my current grade from two successive panels, refusing me flexible work conditions (I was a single Mum with a young son living a distance from the posts offered) that she then granted to male colleagues below me on panels who accepted the posts that I'd had to turn down due to the conditions imposed by this manager!).

Will I simply be wasting my time even applying?

How does one handle an interviewer who has treated you with very little respect in the workplace?

Regards

Wanderer2010

Thats a tough one OP. For some reason this woman has it in for you and thats not likely to change now. However i think you should still go for it, as you will probably be filled with regret if you dont. Would this new position mean dealing with her more or having more interaction with her? If shes part of a 3 person panel and she gives you a hard time its going to be obvious to the other 2 whats going on and that will strengthen your case if you feel you were treated badly.
Go for it OP. If you get a hard time can you have a word with HR about her being biased?

exaisle

I'd have thought that a direct superior on an interview panel constituted a conflict of interest on the part of the superior.

You could ask that she recuse herself from the panel in your case on the basis that "she knows you and might look overly-favourably on your application".....

Katie9

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Thats a tough one OP. For some reason this woman has it in for you and thats not likely to change now. However i think you should still go for it, as you will probably be filled with regret if you dont. Would this new position mean dealing with her more or having more interaction with her? If shes part of a 3 person panel and she gives you a hard time its going to be obvious to the other 2 whats going on and that will strengthen your case if you feel you were treated badly.
Go for it OP. If you get a hard time can you have a word with HR about her being biased?

Thank you.

This manager is notorious for being a micro manager and few have stood up to her.

When I confided in another senior manager last year, he said he was shocked, but not surprised, to hear the way she was treating me. It's widely recognised by colleagues that I was treated unfairly by this manager, when I tried so many times to get to the grade I'm currently in....their theory was that this manager saw me as a threat/competition to them in their job!

As a female manager, I do everything I can to support female colleagues in their careers, so I find this behaviour difficult to comprehend.

One consolation is that the senior manager I confided in last year has since been promoted and will also be on the interview panel....hopefully, if she's unduly harsh in her post interview analysis of my performance, he might take that on!

There will be 5 posts to be filled from this panel. Were I to secure a post in the area I have most expertise in, I would actually be reporting to the decent senior manager referred to above, who has recently been promoted and taken over her portfolio! The female manager would probably try to stick her oar in, as she will find it hard to keep out of our Division's work, but I feel I could handle her!

Regards

Katie9

exaisle wrote: »

I'd have thought that a direct superior on an interview panel constituted a conflict of interest on the part of the superior.

You could ask that she recuse herself from the panel in your case on the basis that "she knows you and might look overly-favourably on your application".....

She's actually two grades above me ( and should, therefore, have had minimal involvement in my daily work. The fact that, since I stood up to her, she has had minimal contact with me whatsoever raises questions as to the level of contact she deemed necessary previously).

Being two grades above me, it would be appropriate that she is on the interview panel.

Just another question re. promotion interview, is it appropriate, when referring to work you've done, if you have worked for/with some of the interviewers, to make reference such as 'as you know, Paddy, my work on that project was..." or would that be too familiar? It would be one way of managing this female interviewer, highlighting work I've done at a high level which she is aware of, for which I've received no acknowledgement!

Regards

red ears

Katie9 wrote: »

As a female manager, I do everything I can to support female colleagues in their careers, so I find this behaviour difficult to comprehend.
s

As a man working in the public service i find this a very worrying statement. I would not want you interviewing me. I don't believe I'd get a fair hearing. How would you feel if a man said the same. That he would do everything he could to help men. Tbh i think this manager simple has the measure of you.

Tigger99

Katie9 wrote: »

Just another question re. promotion interview, is it appropriate, when referring to work you've done, if you have worked for/with some of the interviewers, to make reference such as 'as you know, Paddy, my work on that project was..." or would that be too familiar? It would be one way of managing this female interviewer, highlighting work I've done at a high level which she is aware of, for which I've received no acknowledgement!

Regards

Bad idea. At best it comes across as too familiar, at worst passive aggressive.

Having her on the board is less than ideal but all you can do is treat her professionally and politely, the way you'd treat the others on the board.

Also I think you were crazy to bring up flexible conditions before you got that previous promotion you mentioned.

On interview boards I treat men and women the same, it's their competencies and experience that counts but I'm very aware of how we all have different biases, I found unconscious bias training very useful.

But I suspect what you mean about helping female staff where you can is exactly what I do, encourage excellent candidates that are good at their job yet doubt they should go for promotion. It's something I see time and time again with female staff and really contrasts with the way I see male staff approach promotion. It's a funny one, I've seen a number of female staff be very confident in their day to day jobs, yet applying for promotion is some weird Achilles heel.

Best if luck with it. You will get there.

Katie9

red ears wrote: »

What's the problem, the men could do the job required and you couldn't do it due to your circumstances. I don't see a problem. Maybe the job needed someone there full time.

The 'problem' was that I asked for remote working a few days a week and was refused. The guy given the job was immediately given remote working two days a week for family commitments. My line manager at the time was livid.

Senior management then went onto create a new position in a county to suit another male colleague. When I raised this a long time later with a senior manager, I was told they 'owed him one'.

I accepted my current post on the basis that my manager (who reports to this female manager) wanted me for the job and, knowing my financial concerns re.costs of travelling/accommodation) advised that he would be happy for me to work in Dublin two days p.w. When I started the job, he denied he'd offered those conditions and the female manager advised that other colleagues could remote work but 'under no cirumstances will you be remote working". As I had elderly parents and son still at home, I had to take annual leave a number of days each week in order to remote work!

Ironically, since finally taking up this post that I tried hard to secure years ago, 95% of the job is PC-based, and could be done from anywhere in the country!

More recently, a colleague was given a post without internal advertising of same, and allowed move the headquarters to the other side of the country, and is paid travel and subsistence every time they travel to headquarters, at signifucant cost to the public purse, whereas my post is costing me significant money every week! I'm paying for the privilege of being promoted!

Regards

average_runner

Katie9 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm a middle ranking, very hard working civil servant.

Promotion competition has just been advertised.

I feel I have the competencies for the post, and would do an excellent job, however one pretty major stumbling block....

Female high level manager two grades above me harrassed me relentlessly for over 6 months, until I eventually stood up for myself- not out of courage, but rather I experienced another horrible incident that was just one incident too many- I politely, but firmly, expressed my concern at her behaviour...she has left me alone ever since, to the extent that she blanks me when she can, takes work off me without consultation, doesn't reply to e.mails for some days or not at all, etc.

This manager, two grades above me, will be on the board of three interviewers!

(She also previously blocked me getting promotions to my current grade from two successive panels, refusing me flexible work conditions (I was a single Mum with a young son living a distance from the posts offered) that she then granted to male colleagues below me on panels who accepted the posts that I'd had to turn down due to the conditions imposed by this manager!).

Will I simply be wasting my time even applying?

How does one handle an interviewer who has treated you with very little respect in the workplace?

Regards

If she has done all of what you said then report her. You have the evidence with email, don't allow her to take work off you without an email. Any meetings with her have someone present.

And regarding you only look out for female colleagues, you definitely should not be promoted. A manager needs to be non bias and you are clearly not

Katie9

red ears wrote: »

As a man working in the public service i find this a very worrying statement. I would not want you interviewing me. I don't believe I'd get a fair hearing. How would you feel if a man said the same. That he would do everything he could to help men. Tbh i think this manager simple has the measure of you.

I do everything I can to assist both male and female colleagues advance in their careers, so I find it difficult to understand why any high level manager would not want to do the same.

Any system in which some officers are facilitated with working terms and conditions not offered to others is unacceptable.

All staff have a right to be treated fairly and equitably.

For info, my own (male) line manager has complained to me about his treatment by this manager.

Katie9

Tigger99 wrote: »

Bad idea. At best it comes across as too familiar, at worst passive aggressive.

Having her on the board is less than ideal but all you can do is treat her professionally and politely, the way you'd treat the others on the board.

Also I think you were crazy to bring up flexible conditions before you got that previous promotion you mentioned.

On interview boards I treat men and women the same, it's their competencies and experience that counts but I'm very aware of how we all have different biases, I found unconscious bias training very useful.

But I suspect what you mean about helping female staff where you can is exactly what I do, encourage excellent candidates that are good at their job yet doubt they should go for promotion. It's something I see time and time again with female staff and really contrasts with the way I see male staff approach promotion. It's a funny one, I've seen a number of female staff be very confident in their day to day jobs, yet applying for promotion is some weird Achilles heel.

Best if luck with it. You will get there.

Thanks for that advice, much appreciated.

Katie9

average_runner wrote: »

If she has done all of what you said then report her. You have the evidence with email, don't allow her to take work off you without an email. Any meetings with her have someone present.

And regarding you only look out for female colleagues, you definitely should not be promoted. A manager needs to be non bias and you are clearly not

I don't only look out for female colleagues, I provide support to a lot of colleagues and have helped many, both male and female, advance and develop in their careers.

My reference to helping female colleagues was in response to the situation I find myself in of a female being harrassed by another female ìn the workplace.

I was advised by legal services in work that the behaviour I've experienced was a strong basis for a greivance case, but I believe tk take such an action would make it very difficult in the workplace.

The fact that this manager now has little to do with me is a relief, even if it's accompanied by less than professional conduct. I was advised by a male colleague that this manager was a controlling bully and that, when taken on, she backs off. So it has proven, but, as a manager of staff, I couldn't imagine treating staff in the manner that I have been and wonder, in current times, how such practices can prevail.

Regards

red ears

Katie9 wrote: »

For info, my own (male) line manager has complained to me about his treatment by this manager.

Are you sure she will be on the interview panel. I avoided going for an internal acting up interview last year because i did not get on with the manager of that service and i thought they would be on the interview panel. Turned out they weren't on the interview panel. She really doesnt need to be on a competency based interview panel anyway. I'd say you aren't the only candidate that wouldn't want her interviewing for the job. Leaves her open to accusations of favouritism no matter who gets the job.

hungry hypno toad

red ears wrote: »

As a man working in the public service i find this a very worrying statement. I would not want you interviewing me. I don't believe I'd get a fair hearing. How would you feel if a man said the same. That he would do everything he could to help men. Tbh i think this manager simple has the measure of you.

Agreed, pretty sickening to read something like that.

Wanderer2010

hungry hypno toad wrote: »

Agreed, pretty sickening to read something like that.

I really don't think the OP meant it in the context you are taking it up as. She mentioned that she would support a female colleague in any way she could because she knows that its tougher (in many jobs) for women to have the confidence to progress in their jobs and move up but that doesn't mean that she would see the skills of men and women any differently or be biased. That's how I took it anyhow.

hungry hypno toad

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I really don't think the OP meant it in the context you are taking it up as. She mentioned that she would support a female colleague in any way she could because she knows that its tougher (in many jobs) for women to have the confidence to progress in their jobs and move up but that doesn't mean that she would see the skills of men and women any differently or be biased. That's how I took it anyhow.

Discrimination.

Katie9

Thank you both.

As explained, I have supported many colleagues, both male and female, during my career.

My comment regarding my being a female manager who is happy to help female colleagues was in reference to the situation described of a female manager harrassing a female colleague in the workplace.

It wasn't intended to I imply I don't give support to male colleagues!

Regards

I intend this reply to be a helpful so don't take it the wrong way.

What does your gender have to do with anything?

There's an awful lot of female this and male that in your posts. You leave yourself open to the kinds of responses you're getting here now as a result. Seriously, you need to just get on with it. Male or female has SFA to do with it.

If the manager you have an issue with has progressed in their career to two grades above you without the gender nonsense being brought into it (as you seem to want to do), maybe she recognises that, resents you turning to such tired old approaches and has taken a dislike to you as a consequence.

To be quite honest, she's doing the right thing ignoring you. You could very well be seen as a potential minefield if you think your gender plays any significance at all in your success or failure to progress.

It would put me off wanting to deal with you. Cop on to yourself if that's the case. You'll only alienate people with that kind of line.

bobbysands81

Katie9 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm a middle ranking, very hard working civil servant.

Promotion competition has just been advertised.

I feel I have the competencies for the post, and would do an excellent job, however one pretty major stumbling block....

Female high level manager two grades above me harrassed me relentlessly for over 6 months, until I eventually stood up for myself- not out of courage, but rather I experienced another horrible incident that was just one incident too many- I politely, but firmly, expressed my concern at her behaviour...she has left me alone ever since, to the extent that she blanks me when she can, takes work off me without consultation, doesn't reply to e.mails for some days or not at all, etc.

This manager, two grades above me, will be on the board of three interviewers!

(She also previously blocked me getting promotions to my current grade from two successive panels, refusing me flexible work conditions (I was a single Mum with a young son living a distance from the posts offered) that she then granted to male colleagues below me on panels who accepted the posts that I'd had to turn down due to the conditions imposed by this manager!).

Will I simply be wasting my time even applying?

How does one handle an interviewer who has treated you with very little respect in the workplace?

Regards

Go for the promotion and see how you get on.

By not going for it you'll never get it, by going for it you'll at least have a chance. If you don't get it this time round then hopefully the experience will stand to you in the long run and help for future promotional prospects.

Don't create a barrier to your own career by letting this boss dictate to you that you shouldn't go for promotion because she's on the interview board. You should have the same chance as anyone else, if this boss uses her own personal grievance against you to block you getting promoted then she's leaving herself in the firing line through a potential Grievance Procedure.

Why not contact your EAP to discuss with them? www.cseas.per.gov.ie

mariaalice

Go for the promotion the manager you are talking about has no relevance to going for the promotion, be professional about your work ask for feed back after the interview.

Don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be focusing a lot on how and why others got promotion but that's not anything to do with you it make you sound unprofessional.

How could you have been remoter working and taking annual leave at the same time either you are working or you are on annual leave.

Katie9

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Go for the promotion and see how you get on.

By not going for it you'll never get it, by going for it you'll at least have a chance. If you don't get it this time round then hopefully the experience will stand to you in the long run and help for future promotional prospects.

Don't create a barrier to your own career by letting this boss dictate to you that you shouldn't go for promotion because she's on the interview board. You should have the same chance as anyone else, if this boss uses her own personal grievance against you to block you getting promoted then she's leaving herself in the firing line through a potential Grievance Procedure.

Why not contact your EAP to discuss with them? www.cseas.per.gov.ie

Thank you for that helpful response. Met a colleague during the week who told me he went for promotion a number of times and won't go this time, as he also wasn't treated well by this manager, and considers his not getting on promotion panel previously was due to this manager being on the interview panel.

I contacted EAS last year, found them great.

Have decided to apply for the promotion (long weekend will now be dedicated to the competency-based application form!).

If I don't get through, I won't be taking greivance case, I'll just keep working hard, develop my current role further and build on my CV til the next promotion round.

A very high level manager advised me not to let this manager be a reason not to apply, he knows my work, and has urged me to apply.

This manager has forgotten that staff are her colleagues....there's a great short cartoon video online re. the difference between a boss and a leader... boss rules by fear, leader treats staff as colleagues. I let fear of this boss stop me taking promotion before, I won't let fear of her stop me giving this competition a go.😀