What's your unpopular football opinion?

blinding

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Depends on your definition of middling. The guy has 70 international goals.


Youre talking about the difference between a 1.65 games to goal ratio and a 1.97, not some lad that score every 5 or 6 games.

What have Argentina achieved while Messi has being playing for them.

Maradona took them to two World Cup finals, winning one of them !

Messi is in the hape-penny place in comparison for Argentina.

Guy:Incognito

Not winning tournaments single handily isnt an indication that youre a middling player.

Portugal had a couple of half decent players in the Euros you know.

Plus, C.Ronaldo hardly tore the tournament up. 2 goals in a 3-3 draw in the groups v Hungary and a goal against Wales.

Mitch Connor

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Not winning tournaments single handily isnt an indication that youre a middling player.

Portugal had a couple of half decent players in the Euros you know.

Plus, C.Ronaldo hardly tore the tournament up. 2 goals in a 3-3 draw in the groups v Hungary and a goal against Wales.

I reckon George Best was rubbish. What World Cups did NI win? NONE. Pfft, rubbish!

I've always disliked the idea that team achievements dictate personal rewards or recognition.

blinding

Argentina don’t tend to have very poor squads of Players.

Messi has done very little with Argentina considering that they are Argentina.

Look he is very good for Barcelona but he is a One Team Player ( A Player that did it for One Team )

And that Team is Barcelona which is quite often just in a Two Team Competition ! ! !

RugbyLover123

blinding wrote: »

Argentina don’t tend to have very poor squads of Players.

Messi has done very little with Argentina considering that they are Argentina.

I would argue that the majority of big named players have underperformed for Argentina in the tournaments Messi has been apart of.

People sing Aguero’s praises as being the best foreign import striker to the PL. What has he done in the 3 WCs he’s played in?

Higuain missed a sitter in the 2014 final - had he got that Argentina probably would’ve gone on to win.

Is some of this down to maybe the pressure of playing with Messi? We will never know, but for me, Messi, along with Masch, almost dragged Argentina to the WC in 2014. And were a few penalties away from a couple of Copa America’s.

Dr. Bre

My unpopular opinion is change games from 45 mins to 30mins . Clock stopped every time the ball goes out of play. The clock taken from the Referee .

AdamD

Lionel Messi the 15th highest international goalscorer ever - middling

Bridge93

Interesting that some can apply a hypothetical to maradona with ‘imagine if he was fit and looked after and could play today’ yet Messi is treated with the binary argument of he only did it at one team. What about a hypothetical for him too? It’s 100 times more likely Messi would’ve been amazing for another club than it is maradona would’ve had the mentality and drive to get into the shape needed to play today. Maradona with the money in the game today would’ve been a recipe for disaster

blinding

AdamD wrote: »

Lionel Messi the 15th highest international goalscorer ever - middling

I would have though he would be higher, playing for Argentina.

The Golden Miller

blinding wrote: »

Argentina don’t tend to have very poor squads of Players.

Messi has done very little with Argentina considering that they are Argentina.

Look he is very good for Barcelona but he is a One Team Player ( A Player that did it for One Team )

And that Team is Barcelona which is quite often just in a Two Team Competition ! ! !

Argentina have been very badly managed for a long time, and have been very poor since 2006. From selecting the wrong managers like Maradona himself, to what goes on in the AFA. Having good individuals doesn't always make a good team. They basically gave up on being any sort of a cohesive offensive team in the 2014 world cup, their plan being to park a bus and give the ball to Messi at the half way line to do the rest. 2018 was a write off completely. Messi has been one of the few bright sparks for Argentina, often having to play in very constrained conditions. He's done quite well for them all things considered


Has Ronaldo really been much better for Portugal? Not really. Was anonymous when they went out of the last world cup. Portugal were a well managed and well drilled team at the previous euros, but could you say Ronaldo led them to that victory? Not really. He chipped in with the odd goal, but their success was about the system. They functioned just as well when he didn't even play in the final.

I'd say Messi has been the better of the two at international level, often having to be the fulcrum in a team which is often in tactical disarray from the sidelines. Messi still managed to create enough that Argentina stumbled into several finals, without him they would have been hopeless.

citytillidie

blinding wrote: »

I would have though he would be higher, playing for Argentina.

No real weak teams in South America to score 4 or 5 times against in a game

blinding

Bridge93 wrote: »

Interesting that some can apply a hypothetical to maradona with ‘imagine if he was fit and looked after and could play today’ yet Messi is treated with the binary argument of he only did it at one team. What about a hypothetical for him too? It’s 100 times more likely Messi would’ve been amazing for another club than it is maradona would’ve had the mentality and drive to get into the shape needed to play today. Maradona with the money in the game today would’ve been a recipe for disaster

Maradona did actually do it for other Clubs and his Country.

Maradona was hacked down unmercilessly through out his entire Career. Maradona suffered more punishment in one year than Messi in ten.

Maradona was often played when he was injured or in need of rest. Messi much much less so. Clubs did not have big squads to rest players in those days

Clubs did not look after players off the field in this days. It is said ( i dunno if its true or not ) that Maradona had 50 hangers on that had to be looked after when he was at Barcelona. That would not be allowed to happen today. It was supposedly some of the reason Barcelona let him go to Napoli.

Ok Maradona went off the rails but I doubt many young man from his very poor uneducated background would have done the same when left to their own devices with all the temptation that was laid before him free of charge.

blinding

It would be nice to see Messi sign for another Club to prove that he can do elsewhere besides Barcelona ! !

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Dr. Bre wrote: »

My unpopular opinion is change games from 45 mins to 30mins . Clock stopped every time the ball goes out of play. The clock taken from the Referee .

Fair point! If they even stopped the clock for every time play is stopped in injury time that would be great. Or no subs allowed after the 90th min.

Guy:Incognito

blinding wrote: »

Argentina don’t tend to have very poor squads of Players.

Messi has done very little with Argentina considering that they are Argentina.

Look he is very good for Barcelona but he is a One Team Player ( A Player that did it for One Team )

And that Team is Barcelona which is quite often just in a Two Team Competition ! ! !

I'm not seeing what's wrong with being a one club man.

It's not like C.Ronaldo has gone to mid table clubs so it's hardly a surprise the teams hes with have won things.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'm not seeing what's wrong with being a one club man.

It's not like C.Ronaldo has gone to mid table clubs so it's hardly a surprise the teams hes with have won things.

Nothing wrong with it, but does show how adaptable Ronaldo is which can only be a plus. Sometimes great players can't do it in different leagues.

Liam O

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Argentina have been very badly managed for a long time, and have been very poor since 2006. From selecting the wrong managers like Maradona himself, to what goes on in the AFA. Having good individuals doesn't always make a good team. They basically gave up on being any sort of a cohesive offensive team in the 2014 world cup, their plan being to park a bus and give the ball to Messi at the half way line to do the rest. 2018 was a write off completely. Messi has been one of the few bright sparks for Argentina, often having to play in very constrained conditions. He's done quite well for them all things considered


Has Ronaldo really been much better for Portugal? Not really. Was anonymous when they went out of the last world cup. Portugal were a well managed and well drilled team at the previous euros, but could you say Ronaldo led them to that victory? Not really. He chipped in with the odd goal, but their success was about the system. They functioned just as well when he didn't even play in the final.

I'd say Messi has been the better of the two at international level, often having to be the fulcrum in a team which is often in tactical disarray from the sidelines. Messi still managed to create enough that Argentina stumbled into several finals, without him they would have been hopeless.

You need to go back and watch the Euros again I think if you think Ronaldo wasn't great in it.

Not that you would give him credit even if he'd scored more goals than any other player in international football history or anything like that...

Sheridan81

blinding wrote: »

It would be nice to see Messi sign for another Club to prove that he can do elsewhere besides Barcelona ! !

blinding

Sheridan81 wrote: »

Its a good test. Ronaldo done it many times in similar places to Stoke and Probably Stoke as well ! !

ionadnapokot

i do believe he hasn't scored away to Stoke:)

ionadnapokot

A few Argentinians and Spaniards I’ve met over the years (work etc.) have said to me that wouldn’t have either Maradona or Messi as the greatest!
They would be adamant that the greatest is indeed...... Di Stefano!

Its a great topic for discussion and different opinions. Particularly across the age groups and nationalities.

Summary below of the players I’ve got from lads of all ages who's opinion is of interest. & I picked a WC that they would have seen when in their mid teens to give context to their age and choice.

under 30 (06' WC) - 95% focused on Messi v Cristi Ronaldo
under 40 (94' WC) - Messi, Cristi, <20% would say Maradona, <10% Ronaldo
under 50 (86' WC) - Diego, Messi, Cristi, <10% Pele
under 60 (74' WC) - Diego, Messi, Best, Cristi <20% Pele or Cruyff
under 70 (66' WC) - Pele, Eusebio, Charlton, Best, Messi <20% Diego or Cristi
under 80 (No WC on TV) – Di Stefano, Pele, Charlton, Best, Messi <10% Eusebio or Puskas
under 90 ? Would love to hear if anybody has gauged opinions amongst this age group?

Good few outliers….e.g. French love Zidane & Platini
Im afraid to ask anybody under the age of 20 for fear of what they might tell me!

Rock77

AdamD wrote: »

Lionel Messi the 15th highest international goalscorer ever - middling

I wouldn’t describe Messi as middling but Ali Daei is the highest international goal scorer ever... not really something to judge a player on..

Guy:Incognito

Liam O wrote: »

You need to go back and watch the Euros again I think if you think Ronaldo wasn't great in it.

Not that you would give him credit even if he'd scored more goals than any other player in international football history or anything like that...

The issue isn't C.Ronaldo here, it's Messi being described as a middling player. The point being that messi isn't any worse because Argentina havnt won international tournaments and just because Portugal won 1 euros and it wasn't a 1 man effort.

Bridge93

Bridge93 wrote: »

Interesting that some can apply a hypothetical to maradona with ‘imagine if he was fit and looked after and could play today’ yet Messi is treated with the binary argument of he only did it at one team. What about a hypothetical for him too? It’s 100 times more likely Messi would’ve been amazing for another club than it is maradona would’ve had the mentality and drive to get into the shape needed to play today. Maradona with the money in the game today would’ve been a recipe for disaster

Because not all hypotheses are the same or remotely similar.

Some are reasonable extrapolations, like that Maradona today would have access to the fitness and care regimes available to all pros at huge club today. I mean, why wouldn't he? Would a club deny the facilities they give to other players?

However, the suggestion that Messi would be amazing for another club is not "100 times more likely" than the idea that Maradona would have access to better treatment.

Bridge93

Deleted User wrote: »

Because not all hypotheses are the same or remotely similar.

Some are reasonable extrapolations, like that Maradona today would have access to the fitness and care regimes available to all pros at huge club today. I mean, why wouldn't he? Would a club deny the facilities they give to other players?

However, the suggestion that Messi would be amazing for another club is not "100 times more likely" than the idea that Maradona would have access to better treatment.

I’m not saying he wouldn’t have access. I’m saying the bloke is drug addict and a drunk. A genius he may be, we have absolutely no idea whether he’d have the mental capability to be as professional as is required to play the game at the highest level now. Therefore it is purely hypothetical

Bridge93

Bridge93 wrote: »

I’m not saying he wouldn’t have access. I’m saying the bloke is drug addict and a drunk. A genius he may be, we have absolutely no idea whether he’d have the mental capability to be as professional as is required to play the game at the highest level now. Therefore it is purely hypothetical

He is a drug addict and a drunk now. He's also almost 60. For all those reasons I don't think he'd play at the highest level now.

I kinda presumed we were talking about the Maradona of the 80s. Who had the mental capacity to play at a level that make many say he was the greatest. And drag a team to the greatest prize of all.

blinding

Deleted User wrote: »

He is a drug addict and a drunk now. He's also almost 60. For all those reasons I don't think he'd play at the highest level now.

I kinda presumed we were talking about the Maradona of the 80s. Who had the mental capacity to play at a level that make many say he was the greatest. And drag a team to the greatest prize of all.

Messi and Ronaldo are certainly better than the Maradona of now;);)

blinding

blinding wrote: »

Messi and Ronaldo are certainly better than the Maradona of now;);)

He's better than Fr. Romeo Sensini...

The Floyd p

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The athleticism is a mute point. If you drag a player into today you surely give the the benefits of today's training, conditioning, conditions etc.

On raw talent there's never been anyone like him. The one facet of the game Messi exceeds him is dribbling.....just. What really separates him to Messi was his onfield leadership, Maradona was a warrior.

People say world cup success shouldn't count for much anymore, as the Champions League is a higher standard these days. I don't fully agree. It's different, the pride representing your country. It's the one tournament the world watches once every 4 years so there's huge pressure to perform. And when the world watched, Maradona stood up to the mark and played his best football. Not only that, he led like a general. Apply the pressure and Maradona only got better. The hallmark of the greats. Maradona was the greatest!

Messi is clearly a better finisher and passer, his goal and assist numbers bear that out, or just watching him.

All you're admitting with the second statement is that you'll take a sample size of 7 games in 1986 as the ultimate validation. I'll stick to Messi.

castletownman

For all the talk of Maradona's lifestyle and how it would translate to today's game, he hired a personal trainer in the season leading up to the 1986 World Cup. Was in Mexico, played in altitude, so he obviously wanted to be at the top of his game for it- and so it proved. And surely if he had a questionable fitness regime, the fact he led Napoli to two Serie A titles (only two in their history) at time of a legendary Milan team and a very good Juventus team suggests that if he was subjected to modern standards and methods he would be at a higher level again.

How many times have we heard of trouble in the Barca camp, usually caused by a rift involving Messi? It seems he's as good at throwing the toys out of the pram as other "prima donna" modern footballers. As had many a dispute with the Argentinian FA too. It's not all a bed of roses.

Maradona is indisputably a bigger legend of international football than Messi for me.

blinding

castletownman wrote: »

For all the talk of Maradona's lifestyle and how it would translate to today's game, he hired a personal trainer in the season leading up to the 1986 World Cup. Was in Mexico, played in altitude, so he obviously wanted to be at the top of his game for it- and so it proved. And surely if he had a questionable fitness regime, the fact he led Napoli to two Serie A titles (only two in their history) at time of a legendary Milan team and a very good Juventus team suggests that if he was subjected to modern standards and methods he would be at a higher level again.

How many times have we heard of trouble in the Barca camp, usually caused by a rift involving Messi? It seems he's as good at throwing the toys out of the pram as other "prima donna" modern footballers. As had many a dispute with the Argentinian FA too. It's not all a bed of roses.

Maradona is indisputably a bigger legend of international football than Messi for me.

Ask Argentinians about Maradona and Messi; Messi is not fit to lace Maradona"s Right Boot ! !

Mitch Connor

blinding wrote: »

Ask Argentinians about Maradona and Messi; Messi is not fit to lace Maradona"s Right Boot ! !

isn't there a weird hatred of Messi in Argentina though?

I've not seen as much of Maradona as I have Messi, but if Messi is not good enough to lace his right boot Maradona must have been capable of litteral magic.

The stuff Messi can and has done, his stats, the level of goal he has scored. The teams he has scored against... I just can't see how there can be any argument that Messi isn't right up there with any player to ever play.

Maybe it is the nature of football fans - players can't be comparible, they are either much better or much worse.

blinding

Mitch Connor wrote: »

isn't there a weird hatred of Messi in Argentina though?

I've not seen as much of Maradona as I have Messi, but if Messi is not good enough to lace his right boot Maradona must have been capable of litteral magic.

The stuff Messi can and has done, his stats, the level of goal he has scored. The teams he has scored against... I just can't see how there can be any argument that Messi isn't right up there with any player to ever play.

Maybe it is the nature of football fans - players can't be comparible, they are either much better or much worse.

Messi has not done much for Argentina in comparison to Maradona and at times has not seemed all that keen to play for Argentina.

The Messi hype won’t cut it so much in Argentina when he can be compared to Maradona for Argentina.

Would we even have heard much about Messi if he had not been given Human Growth Hormone ? Is there a drug question there of a different type ? ?

castletownman

And actually it could be argued that Messi hasn't really produced much individual magic to guide Barca deep into the Champions League in the same time-frame as Ronaldo's Madrid spell. They seem to get embarrassed lately when eliminated-Pool last year, Roma in 2018. I know the PSG game is an all-time classic comeback victory, but it was Neymar who took the second leg by the scruff of the neck and dragged them through, and they floundered thereafter.

eagle eye

CSF wrote:

I’d imagine Messi would win any poll but he’d still be close enough, that it’s hardly unpopular

Yeah Messi would win any poll because most of those that would pick Maradona would not be voting on them.

I've seen all of Messi's career and he is wonderful to watch. Maradona was on a different planet to everybody else back in his day.
Comparing different eras is unfair to both. Messi is fitter and stronger than Maradona ever was and the standard of the average player is much higher nowadays.
Messi couldn't glide by players with the same ease as Maradona though but the reasons mentioned above have a lot to do with that.
Then you've got a guy who dragged a very average bunch of players to a World Cup triumph and a final four years later, despite being kicked around the place his whole career, versus a player who has only won when surrounded by world class talent. Messi has played in Argentinian teams with lots more talent comparatively and not succeeded.

Father Hernandez

Mitch Connor wrote: »

isn't there a weird hatred of Messi in Argentina though?

I've not seen as much of Maradona as I have Messi, but if Messi is not good enough to lace his right boot Maradona must have been capable of litteral magic.

The stuff Messi can and has done, his stats, the level of goal he has scored. The teams he has scored against... I just can't see how there can be any argument that Messi isn't right up there with any player to ever play.

Maybe it is the nature of football fans - players can't be comparible, they are either much better or much worse.

Having been a couple times, there is weirdly true.

It's an odd one, on one hand he is an incredible player, one of the best of all time and probably more appreciated this side of the world.

On the other hand, he has been at Barca since 2003 so a lot of Argentinians feel he is a Barcelona player rather than an Argentine. In comparison to Maradona, he at least won a national title with Boca and made them a serious amount of cash before heading for Europe.

More so I think it's down to the national team where the hatred comes from. It's a team of players Messi wants playing with him, nothing more apparently and the lack of international titles. They've lost 4 finals in Messi's time at Copa America and the WC and I reckon many are unfairly comparing it to Maradona in the sense that if it was Maradona, they'd have won.

If Argentina won the 2014 World Cup I think it may have been a diff story but here we are.

From the Argies I know, it's Maradona over Messi everyday of the week, young and old.

blinding

From an Argentinian Point of View Maradona is on a Completely different Level to Messi.

Who knows you better than your own Country People ?

munster87

AdamD wrote: »

Lionel Messi the 15th highest international goalscorer ever - middling

Always said it, not fit to lace Stern John’s boots.

dan1895

munster87 wrote: »

Always said it, not fit to lace Stern John’s boots.

What about Avery John?

dan1895

munster87 wrote: »

Always said it, not fit to lace Stern John’s boots.

What about Avery John?

blinding

munster87 wrote: »

Always said it, not fit to lace Stern John’s boots.

Certainly , Not Robbie Keane's;);)

munster87

dan1895 wrote: »

What about Avery John?

Slightly better left peg than Messi!

RugbyLover123

I think the argument for Maradona being head and shoulders above Messi in Argentina is fairly clear why in two points.

Maradona delivered a WC for Argentina. Where as Higuain failed to deliver one for Messi and Argentina.

And then Messi has been in Barcelona since he was 13. Argentinians probably feel like they don’t have a connection with Messi as they did with Maradona. Which is fairly understandable and one i can relate to as I see it in myself with the Irish soccer team.

With regards to Messi not performing in the latter stages of the CL.. he scored one of the great solo goals in a champions league semi final against Madrid at Madrid? I think he scored 3 across that tie, but I’m not sure. He got MOTM in the final against United in 2011 and scored in the final in ‘09? He also scored 2 against Liverpool in the first leg last year and I seem to remember him destroying Bayern Munich another year. I think he’s more then performed at the latter stages.

Had Messi chosen to play for Spain instead of Argentina this wouldn’t even be a debate.

Guy:Incognito

blinding wrote: »

Messi has not done much for Argentina in comparison to Maradona and at times has not seemed all that keen to play for Argentina.

He has 138 caps (40 odd more than Maradonna). Not sure how much more often he can be expected to turn up.

Guy:Incognito

blinding wrote: »

.

Who knows you better than your own Country People ?

People with objective opinions?

blinding

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

He has 138 caps (40 odd more than Maradonna). Not sure how much more often he can be expected to turn up.

Perhaps they are Man Utd turn ups = Make sure you don’t get injured and just do enough or barely enough. A Man Utd turn up is not like a Real Turn-Up ! !:eek:

blinding

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

People with objective opinions?

Foreigners would not have the same forensic examination as your own Country People.

citytillidie

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

He has 138 caps (40 odd more than Maradonna). Not sure how much more often he can be expected to turn up.

But teams in South America are playing more games now compared to when Maradonna played, the qualification process changed for the 1998 world cup where it went to one big group, for 1994 it was 2 groups and 1990 and before it was 3 groups so teams were only playing 4 games to qualify for the World Cup, compared to 18 now.

Mitch Connor

blinding wrote: »

Foreigners would not have the same forensic examination as your own Country People.

nor the same hero worship.

Guy:Incognito

citytillidie wrote: »

But teams in South America are playing more games now compared to when Maradonna played, the qualification process changed for the 1998 world cup where it went to one big group, for 1994 it was 2 groups and 1990 and before it was 3 groups so teams were only playing 4 games to qualify for the World Cup, compared to 18 now.

He's still by far the most capped current player though. He's only 5 off Zanetti and 9 off Mascherano in their all time list.