Group size

ericzeking

Out training solo yesterday, (I am a racing cyclist myself-I just wasn't racing yesterday) I had a group come against me with fully 30-35 riders in it. It was not a sportive or charity event, at least it didn't have support vehicles or signage, it wasn't a chaingang of racers, it appeared to be a leisure group out 'training'.

This was on narrow roads. The first thing I will say is that coasting around in a group of this size at leisure pace is not going to be of much benefit to those in the group apart from 'the chats'. But more importantly, groups this size are nigh on impossible to pass safely on the type of road where I met them.

With the current animosity that is out there towards us fuelled by the irresponsible Gardai, this type of thing is just adding to it and it is making life more dangerous for everyone.

Are these type of groups very common? As I said I would normally be racing on Sundays during the Spring/Summer.
If you are in one of these groups...take the initiative and break the group up into groups of 6, 8 or 10 putting riders of similar ability together....for everyone's sake.

Be safe out there. I feel as bike riders, we are in dangerous times.

Tenzor07

Surely people are entitled to use the roads weather they be on 2 wheels or 4?

Besides, cycling is a great group activity and there's safety in numbers!

Weepsie

I wouldn't say they are that common from my experience. I'm out solo for nearly all of my cycling and rarely do I see groups bigger than maybe 12. That said, it could've been a sportive as there were a few on yesterday, or charity cycle. They can't have a support vehicle for every group. And as above. If a someone wants to get worked up about it, let them.


Where was it?

ericzeking

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Surely people are entitled to use the roads weather they be on 2 wheels or 4?

Besides, cycling is a great group activity and there's safety in numbers!

Absolutely, I ride the bike 6 days a week, I'll defend my rights on the road to the last and can be quite cranky about it. I ride in a training/coffee group of 6-8 maybe once or twice a month.

No one was breaking any laws but there has to be practicality too lads.

It is my opinion, that groups like this make my life on my bike more dangerous.

That's my opinion, and this is a place for opinions. As the next poster down said, he reckons it's not common. I wouldn't know, I race Sundays in the summer mostly when the leisure groups are out.

It definitely wasn't a sportive, there were no riders in front or behind.

Wishbone Ash

I was in a club ride with over 30 on one occasion and it wasn't pleasant - too much variation in ability and lots of phantom braking as well as being difficult for other road users to pass. 10/12 is enough in my experience.

ericzeking wrote: »

...coasting around in a group of this size at leisure pace is not going to be of much benefit to those in the group...

Perhaps if you're into racing but for the majority, isn't it better than lying on the sofa at home? I've never been on a 'training' spin and I don't particularly intend to be on one either.

seamus

I disagree we're "in dangerous times". To some extent the fact that every other week there seems to be someone making a statement about cyclists is an indication of increased public awareness, which is only a good thing.

Anyway on-topic I wouldn't say huge groups are particularly common. The only time I've really encountered enormous groups was during bonafide leisure events or races. Clubs or even people out for the craic will generally split their groups up either for safety or naturally because half the group is travelling too slowly for the other half.

Given that the absolute legal maximum length of a truck is 22 metres, then it would seem logical that given two metres per rider, a group should never be larger than 22, riding two abreast. However the typical length of a truck or bus is around 16 metres, so good sense indicates that any group should aim to keep themselves to 16 riders or fewer.

There is no legal maximum, but it makes sense to ensure that the total size of the group is something which vehicles are accustomed to dealing with on the roads. If your group is 40+ metres long, then traffic will be unfamiliar with overtaking vehicles that size and are more likely to fnck it up and end up pulling in on top of the group.

On narrower roads I would even be inclined to stick to groups of 12 or less, as you don't often encounter full-length vehicles on back roads.

Tenzor07

All I can say is it's great to hear about so many people out on bicycles enjoying the roads.. much better than sitting behind a line of slower moving cars on roads like the one 's into Roundwood or Laragh for example...

But there is safety in numbers.. I recall cycling up out of Enniskerry village when an grumpy fk in his car came out of the newsagents about halfway up the hill and didn't like having to pass out 15 guys on bikes, so he lived close by and came out with a hurling stick when we passed his house.. Though he stayed put as he didn't fancy his chances against that many people...

Weepsie

ericzeking wrote: »

Absolutely, I ride the bike 6 days a week, I'll defend my rights on the road to the last and can be quite cranky about it. I ride in a training/coffee group of 6-8 maybe once or twice a month.

No one was breaking any laws but there has to be practicality too lads.

It is my opinion, that groups like this make my life on my bike more dangerous.

That's my opinion, and this is a place for opinions. As the next poster down said, he reckons it's not common. I wouldn't know, I race Sundays in the summer mostly when the leisure groups are out.

It definitely wasn't a sportive, there were no riders in front or behind.

Why do groups like this make your life more dangerous.

It p!sses plenty of people off to accommodate for large bunches of A4, A3, A2/A1 bike races that go in laps around places. So if you're willing to think that that it's not right that a leisure bunch is allowed ride in a big group, be prepared for people to tell you you shouldn't be allowed race.

More people cycling the better and common sense is needed no matter what type of cycling is being done.

I do a charity cycle once a year that is roughly only 30 people, now we only start and finish it (roughly) 50 km out of 300 all together, but it's not impossible if managed well

buffalo

ericzeking wrote: »

Out training solo yesterday, (I am a racing cyclist myself-I just wasn't racing yesterday) I had a group come against me with fully 30-35 riders in it. It was not a sportive or charity event, at least it didn't have support vehicles or signage, it wasn't a chaingang of racers, it appeared to be a leisure group out 'training'.

If they were an identifiable club, I would try get in touch with them and let them know. As a club member myself, it wouldn't surprise me if this happens occasionally - two groups unintentionally merge on the road, or nobody shouts 'stop' when loads of people turn up for a group spin.

If it wasn't a club, there's probably not much you can do.

Count Down

What if one of the leaders crashes, say going downhill at speed? The results would be spectacular/disastrous/amusing as 15-20 following riders add to the carnage. 25-30 is far too big a group to be safe on our secondary roads.
Still remember a big crash in a Tour de France stage where there was a massive pile-up resulting in broken bikes and bodies. A race, yes, but these were experienced cyclists. It could happen to anyone.

Wishbone Ash

Count Down wrote: »

What if one of the leaders crashes, say going downhill at speed? The results would be spectacular/disastrous/amusing as 15-20 following riders add to the carnage....

What if? What if? What if?.....

You'd better contact the organisers of the ROK, WW200 etc. and have them all cancelled bearing in mind that the groups are multiple times larger than any group/club ride and people are often cycling with people they don't know.

ericzeking

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

What if? What if? What if?.....

You'd better contact the organisers of the ROK, WW200 etc. and have them all cancelled bearing in mind that the groups are multiple times larger than any group/club ride and people are often cycling with people they don't know.

I'm not talking about marshalled, signed and supported spins or events....I'm talking about club group spins with excessively large numbers.

seamus

Count Down wrote: »

What if one of the leaders crashes, say going downhill at speed? The results would be spectacular/disastrous/amusing as 15-20 following riders add to the carnage. 25-30 is far too big a group to be safe on our secondary roads.
Still remember a big crash in a Tour de France stage where there was a massive pile-up resulting in broken bikes and bodies. A race, yes, but these were experienced cyclists. It could happen to anyone.

It's not really comparable.

The TDF guys are racing professionally, they make a lot of assumptions about what's happening (that there won't be traffic coming the other way or animals in the road, as two examples), and they take a lot more risks than a leisure group would. Because that's what they do, it's why they get paid. They hold on tight to the rider in front @ 60km/h even though they know a wipeout will take them both out.

Comparing a group out for a spin to a TDF peloton is like comparing a Sunday driver to a rally driver.

I have never once seen a tight group remain tight through a downhill. Self-preservation kicks in.

ThisRegard

There was some sort of organised ride yesterday, I came across the caravan of escort vehicles in the afternoon around the Ballycoolin area, they were heading towards Blanchardstown.

07Lapierre

ThisRegard wrote: »

There was some sort of organised ride yesterday, I came across the caravan of escort vehicles in the afternoon around the Ballycoolin area, they were heading towards Blanchardstown.

Maybe it was this:

https://www.facebook.com/CycleAgainstSuicide/

The Noble Nudge

I came across a group Saturday about noon while driving down from sally gap to kilbride....
They forced me stop in fear of actually hitting one of them!
Only about 12 of them but they had taken the width of the road including the white line.
Spotted club kit so gonna fire an email off to them.
Silly carry on and they should know better....

ThisRegard

07Lapierre wrote: »

Maybe it was this:

https://www.facebook.com/CycleAgainstSuicide/

Looks like the cars I saw alright.

happyhappy

ericzeking wrote: »

With the current animosity that is out there towards us fuelled by the irresponsible Gardai, this type of thing is just adding to it and it is making life more dangerous for everyone.

.

Explain the 'fuelled by the irresponsible Gardai' bit that is adding to the current animosity?

buffalo

happyhappy wrote: »

Explain the 'fuelled by the irresponsible Gardai' bit that is adding to the current animosity?

Presumably http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057728718

moonshadow

I regularly (tue/thurs/sunday) am in a group of 22-30 , 30 max.
Every one of us know that it's an avg of 26 km...wait on hills, up and down which is hard to moderate but we do.
We keep it tight as possible with three marshalls to keep all together, front middle back all rotating......
Yes it can be frustrating watching vehicles behind but the marshals always have an eye on what's happening, give a thumbs up at the back to motorists when they wait and pass safely which is appreciated (I think)
In three years we have had one (single) issue with an N driver passing on a bend and split the group dangerously.But all was good.
Yes it is a big group, yes there is safety in numbers.....yes I am still nervous .

ninoon

In my opinion it is safer and easier to manage two or three groups of ten or so, one or two minutes apart as against one group of twenty or thirty.

Macy0161

I'd regularly see groups of 30 odd from a few clubs. Not a sportif or races, seems to be just their Sunday spins.

Personally, wouldn't think it's safe and wouldn't fancy it just on a spin. That's up to them. - but i wish they'd tidy up the groups a bit - definitely where all the 5 (or 6 or 7 or 8 whatever it's up to this week) comes from!

seamus

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'd regularly see groups of 30 odd from a few clubs. Not a sportif or races, seems to be just their Sunday spins.

Are you sure though?

As human beings, we're notoriously bad at estimating group sizes. And groups of riders look way bigger than they are.

Par example;

http://secondwindmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Safety-Tips-For-Road-Cycling-Beginners-In-Singapore.jpg

On first glance, this looks like maybe 15? Including the guy right in front of the camera, and the bike he's shielding, I count ten. 11 at most if there's a rider hidden at the front-left.

This one: http://multifiles.pressherald.com/uploads/sites/4/2015/10/572931-20151015_bicyclist3-1024x679.jpg

30 or 40 riders? Count the bikes on the left, multiply by two and add 10% for error; there are 25 riders in that group, maximum.

I don't doubt that you see large groups, but I would say if you actually counted them you'd be surprised at how fewer bodies there actually are than you think. From a front or rear view groups often look like they're riding 3 or even four abreast, which creates an illusion of there being far more in the group than there actually are.

Macy0161

It'd be side on I'd see it, going past my house.

benneca1

"The first thing I will say is that coasting around in a group of this size at leisure pace is not going to be of much benefit to those in the group apart from 'the chats'. "
Racer superiority complex coming out here I fear. What is wrong with going at a slow pace and having a chat and looking at the scenery.
I do take the point about the group size but from the sound of it probably was a newbie group. To be fair it can be very hard to keep a beginner group tidy. Even if you have an experienced rider front and back the group can be all over the shop. Cycling Ireland have written on the leisure licence that you should cycle behind and to the side of the person in front of you which actually encourages the group to spread all over the road so unless you tell folk thats what will happen.

JBokeh

I've to give credit to the clubs around Clonmel/Tipp town, any time you pass any groups along the N24 around that area, they're always no bigger than 12 and a nice tidy bunch. You'd see around 6 bunches out of an evening, so I imagine they break them up to avoid having a big jam of lads coming out the road at once. I personally don't see the attraction with that road though.