whats preventing houses being built?

Yourself isit

pilly wrote: »

Tbf if there was big profits out there they'd be building like there's no tomorrow.

Not if they anticipate more profit next year. That's the nature of land hoarding.

Yourself isit

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You got that from the quote I posted (and posted again above). That's some reading between the lines!

You're right. Someone else said that. But it's true nevertheless

quadrifoglio verde

Tefral wrote: »

It's the actual cost of building versus the return. It's a pain in the ass to build houses. The regulations are mad, houses these days are nearly passive so you are paying upfront for the reduced energy costs. The problem with that is the customer cannot afford it because banks won't lend.

Labour costs are gone stupid too because it's next to impossible to find good tradesmen so the ones that are charge more because they can get it. Material costs never went down.

And the banks shouldn't lend.
3.5 times the income should be the max, unless you've the prospect of serious income gains in the future E.g SHO becoming consultant or a hefty deposit.

I do agree about the costs to build however. These need to be examined and examined quickly.
At a time if crisis, a ftb shouldn't be expected to subsidise cheap/free housing for the the local authorities.
It is nothing but a tax through the back door on ftb

D0NNELLY

zweton wrote: »

i know theres a housing shortage at the moment and prob a million and one reasons why houses are not being built, i know there are in some citys but we could do with alot more.

You're watching too much state propaganda (6.1)

There's 27000 properties for sale on daft at the minute. The only recovery Irish know is a good old fashioned housing bubble. Buy buy buy quick, there's a shortage.

Yourself isit

Housing starts.

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2017/01/commencements2014_2016-3.jpg

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Yourself isit

testicles wrote: »

VAT on new build is "only" 13.5%

What else would VAT be on?

Anongeneric

Yes High Speed trains, there are none in Ireland and it would be a massive capital investment but plenty of countries do it.

Madrid to Seville is 475km, and it takes 2 and a half hours, so Sligo to Dublin, (200km) is doable in 45/50 mins

Charlie19 wrote: »

Mullingar is a 40 minute drive from the m50 doing 100kph with no stops and longford would be another 25 minutes on top of that.

Is it really possible for a train to reach these times you mention. Dublin to Sligo 45 minutes?

con___manx1

the_pen_turner wrote: »

look at any vilage or town in rural ireland. there are empty house, empty flats , empty above shops, older houses, etc . all these need is the right combination of incentives to the owners and the right grants to do them up and they could be rented out.
i was in a local town and could easily see hundreds of places that should be done up and rented out.
a benifit would be that it would bring people back living in the town centers


also most builder an trademen are barely getting enough to pay themselves let alone create profit on jobs. the costs are insanely high. im sure that if you worked out the proper rate for a trademan , one man show , all above board you would want 250 a day minium. most people complain if you charge 150 a day

the reason the rural towns and villages have empty houses and flats is because there are no jobs in the rural areas. most of the jobs in the country are being created in dublin. Dublin is like another country separate to Ireland at the moment with the cost of property and the economy there. the government needs to do something to try get company's in other parts of the country. this would help the housing crisis greatly.

Anongeneric

Businesses want to be close to international transport hubs/similar businesses/locations where they can attract a wide pool of a workforce etc. etc.

Although I'd be in very much in favor of it being spread more around the country, it's not easy to get companies to go to other places.

Politicians would love to be able to announce that they brought hundreds of jobs to their voters, unfortunately it's not that easy.

con___manx1 wrote: »

the reason the rural towns and villages have empty houses and flats is because there are no jobs in the rural areas. most of the jobs in the country are being created in dublin. Dublin is like another country separate to Ireland at the moment with the cost of property and the economy there. the government needs to do something to try get company's in other parts of the country. this would help the housing crisis greatly.

4ensic15

Tefral wrote: »

The problem with that is the customer cannot afford it because banks won't lend.

The banks won't lend what the customer can't afford. Something does not become affordable just because a bank is willing to lend.

pwurple

I'm building at the moment. There is a huge shortage of tradespeople. Carpenters, masons, roofers, they all left when there was no work for them.

No apprentices either. No teenager sees building or a trade as a career, they are all pushed into university.

ionapaul

Anongeneric wrote: »

Businesses want to be close to international transport hubs/similar businesses/locations where they can attract a wide pool of a workforce etc. etc.

Although I'd be in very much in favor of it being spread more around the country, it's not easy to get companies to go to other places.

Politicians would love to be able to announce that they brought hundreds of jobs to their voters, unfortunately it's not that easy.

We should also remember that it's not just a case of the companies themselves not wanting to be located outside of Dublin (I'm sure some would love to rent premises for a fraction of the cost of Dublin city centre!), many businesses know they just won't attract the right kind of candidates if they are based elsewhere. Relatively few highly-skilled, young people want to live outside of the big urban areas, and if a multi-national business wants to hire hundreds of these kinds of European workers it's easier to do it in Dublin - where young people actually want to live, whether you feel that way yourself or not - than in Limerick, Mullingar, Athlone, Waterford, etc etc etc...

For the marquee employers like Facebook, Google, Intercom and so on, I'm fairly sure it is down to the pressures relating to acquiring staff, rather than the desire to be 'near the heart of things' or the personal preferences of top management, that requires them to be situated in Dublin city.

SeanSouth

I was planning to build a new house this year. I own the site but after researching the subject, i just gave up.

1) The government wants 13.5% vat on the on the entire build, about €50,000
2) Irish water wants €6000 for a water connection that's already there
3) The local authority wants €12000 as a development levy but wont do any work for that
4) The local authority wants an extra €4500 because i live within one mile of a commuter train station
5) Building regulations have been increased to a level that's not required and adds hugely to the cost
6) Cant get an engineer to quote less than €8500. Apparently they are all busy
7) The Planning Department cannot be engaged with except through a very slow and archaic process which
is not fit for purpose

ITS NOT ECONOMICAL TO BUILD A HOUSE IN THIS COUNTRY. FULL STOP

Here's whats needed :

1) VAT on new housing needs to be abolished (Like the UK)
2) Building Regs need to be relaxed
3) The Government and Local Authorities need to take their snouts out of the trough
4) Only Building Costs should be allowed. All levies and taxes need to go
5) The planning system needs to be overhauled

Unfortunately the result of all this is that I am now staying put in my own house which leaves one less house available for others.
The whole process from start to finish is bonkers.

myshirt

@ionapaul, did you seriously just put Limerick in the same category as Mullingar, Athlone, and Waterford?

When was the last time you were in Limerick?

Arcade_Tryer

the_pen_turner wrote: »

we need to reduce the need for people to have to go into big cities for work. do this through work form home , or through incentives for businesses to base them selves in towns outside of the cities where posible.

People want to live and work in big cities though. Big cities are a good thing. Big barriers to living in cities is the bad thing.

the_pen_turner

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

People want to live and work in big cities though. Big cities are a good thing. Big barriers to living in cities is the bad thing.

i dont think they do.
most people in the countryside dont want to live in towns let alone cities.

big cities are my definition of hell to live in.
they have their place but have to be designed correctly . we dont have any design to our cities.

ionapaul

myshirt wrote: »

@ionapaul, did you seriously just put Limerick in the same category as Mullingar, Athlone, and Waterford?

When was the last time you were in Limerick?

Apologies, it would have been easier to just write 'anywhere outside of Dublin' than to actively pick out specific locations! To many people, and young multi-lingual IT workers from oversees in particular I bet, Dublin is the only attractive part of Ireland to live, with maybe Cork and Galway coming in on a 2nd level much further down.

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i dont think they do.
most people in the countryside dont want to live in towns let alone cities.

big cities are my definition of hell to live in.
they have their place but have to be designed correctly . we dont have any design to our cities.

That's fair enough, loads of people don't want to live in urban environments and think town/city life is hell. I think it's very fair to say that a majority of the type of people sought as employees by many bigger businesses and organisations are of the opposing view though, hence one of the many reasons these types of organisations end up being based in Dublin.

Citroen2cv

Cost of building houses is so high partly because they are over-engineered. Now this is a good thing when it comes to Insulation and fire safety. But there are other areas where I think the specs could be reduced eg.amount of concrete and steel going into foundations, size of roof timbers could be reduced.

As someone pointed out, there are houses being built in South Dublin but these are for the high end market, selling at over 500k. I thought that this is the market that already has enough of a supply, for the small amount of people that can afford these prices.

Im not mad on the idea of more houses being built near the M50. You could see a lot of the people buying these house using the M50 for commuting. The M50 is already at choking point, it cannot handle more volume.

pilly

ionapaul wrote: »

Apologies, it would have been easier to just write 'anywhere outside of Dublin' than to actively pick out specific locations! To many people, and young multi-lingual IT workers from oversees in particular I bet, Dublin is the only attractive part of Ireland to live, with maybe Cork and Galway coming in on a 2nd level much further down.



That's fair enough, loads of people don't want to live in urban environments and think town/city life is hell. I think it's very fair to say that a majority of the type of people sought as employees by many bigger businesses and organisations are of the opposing view though, hence one of the many reasons these types of organisations end up being based in Dublin.

Totally agree, though a lot of rural people do not want to live in towns or cities, the young upwardly mobile ones usually do for a social life if nothing else.

pen_turner are you genuinely saying that rural life is fantastic for a 20 year old? Because having moved from Dublin to a rural location myself as a middle aged person I've yet to meet a young person who loves it.

They would kill to live in Dublin, there is no social outlet for them in rural areas. (I know I'm going to get everyone roaring the GAA, but come on when we were 20 did we not want to have a social life? I know I did).

the_pen_turner

pilly wrote: »

ionapaul wrote: »

Apologies, it would have been easier to just write 'anywhere outside of Dublin' than to actively pick out specific locations! To many people, and young multi-lingual IT workers from oversees in particular I bet, Dublin is the only attractive part of Ireland to live, with maybe Cork and Galway coming in on a 2nd level much further down.



That's fair enough, loads of people don't want to live in urban environments and think town/city life is hell. I think it's very fair to say that a majority of the type of people sought as employees by many bigger businesses and organisations are of the opposing view though, hence one of the many reasons these types of organisations end up being based in Dublin.

Totally agree, though a lot of rural people do not want to live in towns or cities, the young upwardly mobile ones usually do for a social life if nothing else.

pen_turner are you genuinely saying that rural life is fantastic for a 20 year old? Because having moved from Dublin to a rural location myself as a middle aged person I've yet to meet a young person who loves it.

They would kill to live in Dublin, there is no social outlet for them in rural areas. (I know I'm going to get everyone roaring the GAA, but come on when we were 20 did we not want to have a social life? I know I did).

I'm not talking about 20 year olds. Most of them want to be in town s and cities. I'm talking about the ordinary Joe soap who wants to settle down and have a family.


Also the lack of amenities and things to do is a result of having to go to Dublin for work.

pilly

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I'm not talking about 20 year olds. Most of them want to be in town s and cities. I'm talking about the ordinary Joe soap who wants to settle down and have a family.


Also the lack of amenities and things to do is a result of having to go to Dublin for work.

You said most people, I was just pointing out that I don't think that's true.

As regards the lack of amenities and things to do being a result of having to go to Dublin for work, I don't understand that part of your point at all.

the_pen_turner

pilly wrote: »

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I'm not talking about 20 year olds. Most of them want to be in town s and cities. I'm talking about the ordinary Joe soap who wants to settle down and have a family.


Also the lack of amenities and things to do is a result of having to go to Dublin for work.

You said most people, I was just pointing out that I don't think that's true.

As regards the lack of amenities and things to do being a result of having to go to Dublin for work, I don't understand that part of your point at all.

I do think it's true.
It's true for most in my area.

To be sure we would need to survey it properly


If everybody has to work and live in Dublin then demand for shop, cinemas,parks etc is in Dublin.
If these people went forced to go to Dublin then the demand would be elsewhere

Samuel T. Cogley

Complete pie in the sky but decentralisation hasn't worked so IMO should be recentralised OUTSIDE Dublin. A whole scale move of the public service to Limerick would be my suggestion freeing up space and workforce and accommodation for business in Dublin. I'd move the whole lot, the Dail everything, we might keep Michael D. we might not. One city for business, another for government.

Not a massively serious suggestion so don't get too worked up.

jimmycrackcorm

myshirt wrote:

Op, the government need to start building; salaried builders and state land, this is because housing doesn't behave like a 'normal good' in the academic sense, houses will only come to the market if prices will go up; also we are not strong enough on taxing vacant land; vat is a killer on first supply; another reason, we build Audi's, we don't build Nissan Micras.

The last thing we need is to expand the public service to include state builders.
Tender out the building. If need be encourage the likes of Gama to come back in to solve the labour shortage.

Someone mentioned taxing unguided development land. The effect of that works just be to push up prices. Instead those lands banks should lose their zoning if not under development and change to public amenity. Then the government could if required CPO it at cheaper cost.

Alun

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The last thing we need is to expand the public service to include state builders.
Tender out the building.

The way it happened in the Netherlands, or at least where I lived, was that the state, in the form of the local government, effectively acted as the "developer", buying / CPO'ing the land and then tendered out groups of building plots to building companies. The LA decided on the overall layout of the estate, the road network, cycle paths, reserved areas for schools, shopping centres, medical centres and all other essential infrastructure and built that first. They also decided on the mix of housing types and affordability, and only then were the builders allowed in to do the actual building.

Just creating what we think is the right climate for developers to do the right thing and sitting back waiting for them to do it doesn't seem to be working, so maybe the Dutch approach might work?

Yourself isit

Alun wrote: »

The way it happened in the Netherlands, or at least where I lived, was that the state, in the form of the local government, effectively acted as the "developer", buying / CPO'ing the land and then tendered out groups of building plots to building companies. The LA decided on the overall layout of the estate, the road network, cycle paths, reserved areas for schools, shopping centres, medical centres and all other essential infrastructure and built that first. They also decided on the mix of housing types and affordability, and only then were the builders allowed in to do the actual building.

Just creating what we think is the right climate for developers to do the right thing and sitting back waiting for them to do it doesn't seem to be working, so maybe the Dutch approach might work?

That's what Ireland users to do. It wasn't central government that built or tendered.

Alun

I should also maybe add that these were a mix of both private and social housing across a very wide range of sizes and prices. You'd rarely see more than about a dozen houses of the same type and design together either, they were all mixed up together.

davindub

Alun wrote: »

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The last thing we need is to expand the public service to include state builders.
Tender out the building.

The way it happened in the Netherlands, or at least where I lived, was that the state, in the form of the local government, effectively acted as the "developer", buying / CPO'ing the land and then tendered out groups of building plots to building companies. The LA decided on the overall layout of the estate, the road network, cycle paths, reserved areas for schools, shopping centres, medical centres and all other essential infrastructure and built that first. They also decided on the mix of housing types and affordability, and only then were the builders allowed in to do the actual building.

Just creating what we think is the right climate for developers to do the right thing and sitting back waiting for them to do it doesn't seem to be working, so maybe the Dutch approach might work?

There's Eu rulings on this, I think they were restricted on the number of social housing they could build. But it would solve the problem quickly and provide some income for the state if they were building and selling houses at affordable prices.

Geuze

Too high costs as follows:

(1) land costs are way too high

(2) finance costs for developers/builders are way too high, see example below:

put up first 20% yourself - fair enough
borrow next 60%, senior debt, from regular bank, at interest rate of 5-6%, even though the ECB base rate is 0%
then borrow final 20% mezzanine funding from private equity fund at 10-12-14%, crazy, crazy rates

(3) densities too low in Dublin

(4) the LA levies could be looked at