Working culture in Ireland

lufties

No a specific problem, just more of a general wondering.
Having worked in about 6 countries, I must say the work is work wherever you go. There is no such thing as a free lunch. However, having returned recently after nearly 10 years to work in Ireland, I must say I'm shocked at the behaviour in the workplace. It feels like of passive aggressiveness and pressure to conform. Perhaps I just don't fit into the 'dog into it' work ethic. I've had a few short term jobs here in the last few months..I've had authoritarian, bullying managers, and health and safety treated as something that trouble makers adhere to.
It made me wonder firstly, is it just me? Maybe Im too sensitive with my expectations of decent work standards.

It's not just about the working culture in Ireland. It's how your experiences have shaped your expectations and how you will or won't bend to fit with it.

10 years working in 6 different countries is a broad base of experience, but how much of that has been a truly immersive experience, where you've been in one place long enough to really know?

You must realise that it's not realistic to expect that every boss will be a nice person, patient, caring and understanding of your needs as an individual. It's idealistic but not at all realistic. This means you'll either have to keep moving around, looking to find someone to work for who will cater to all your individual requirements from a manager/boss/employer, or you'll have to adjust your expectations accordingly.

I have a lot of experience myself working in other European countries, for several years per country at a time. There are pros and cons to the workplace and societal cultural norms in each of those places and while the first 12-24 months might be great, time passes and you realise there are always objectionable practices/rules/behaviours lurking just beneath the surface.

What kind of industry and what sized company are you having these experiences with, as a matter of interest? It varies wildly depending on the internal/external pressures they're experiencing, so it's a relevant question.

Anongeneric

I've been home 2 and a half years after over a decade abroad and would relate to everything you say hear.
That said, everybody here seems happy enough with it...
Maybe we both are suffering from reverse culture shock!!

Edit,
there has also been a recession here for the last decade so people were forced into accepting a lot more than they would in a market with more options to move, just like when we had the boom.

JayZeus, I'm working in multinational production sector, and hoe employees are treated has definitely changed a great deal, but it's to be expected after the heady days of the boom!

lufties wrote: »

No a specific problem, just more of a general wondering.
Having worked in about 6 countries, I must say the work is work wherever you go. There is no such thing as a free lunch. However, having returned recently after nearly 10 years to work in Ireland, I must say I'm shocked at the behaviour in the workplace. It feels like of passive aggressiveness and pressure to conform. Perhaps I just don't fit into the 'dog into it' work ethic. I've had a few short term jobs here in the last few months..I've had authoritarian, bullying managers, and health and safety treated as something that trouble makers adhere to.
It made me wonder firstly, is it just me? Maybe Im too sensitive with my expectations of decent work standards.

Neon_Lights

Oh and the drivel that people spout in management over nothing, it's blindsighted governance and 60 hour weeks full of emails . How can you effectively tie your shoes, let alone greet an employee kindly or lead effectively.

Another thing is the blame centric prince2 culture we have here and passing the buck, I've seen so many managers sink ships due to their inability to delegate. It also inhibits innovation. In my company collaboration is a company coffee morning

lufties

Anongeneric wrote: »

I've been home 2 and a half years after over a decade abroad and would relate to everything you say hear.
That said, everybody here seems happy enough with it...
Maybe we both are suffering from reverse culture shock!!

Edit,
there has also been a recession here for the last decade so people were forced into accepting a lot more than they would in a market with more options to move, just like when we had the boom.

JayZeus, I'm working in multinational production sector, and hoe employees are treated has definitely changed a great deal, but it's to be expected after the heady days of the boom!

lufties wrote: »

No a specific problem, just more of a general wondering.
Having worked in about 6 countries, I must say the work is work wherever you go. There is no such thing as a free lunch. However, having returned recently after nearly 10 years to work in Ireland, I must say I'm shocked at the behaviour in the workplace. It feels like of passive aggressiveness and pressure to conform. Perhaps I just don't fit into the 'dog into it' work ethic. I've had a few short term jobs here in the last few months..I've had authoritarian, bullying managers, and health and safety treated as something that trouble makers adhere to.
It made me wonder firstly, is it just me? Maybe Im too sensitive with my expectations of decent work standards.

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the recession. The best work standards I've seen is Germany. The strange thing is, they still get the job done without being bullies (,for the most part).

The first job I took in Ireland in Jan, I was asked to do a task outside my scope of work, when I refused I was threatened that with 'this is small industry in Ireland', basically alluding to 'word gets around'. There is no doubt in my mind that a bullying culture exists here. I wish management would take a step back and realise that if you treat employees well, the will be more productive.

listermint

Asked to do a task outside my work....


You should get a job in the civil sector , you might fit right in.

If you enjoy the job then none of what you are saying makes any sense.sounds to me like you don't actually enjoy the job . Means to an end.

lufties

listermint wrote: »

Asked to do a task outside my work....


You should get a job in the civil sector , you might fit right in.

If you enjoy the job then none of what you are saying makes any sense.sounds to me like you don't actually enjoy the job . Means to an end.

OK, so how does that make any sense? If they wanted a cleaner then they should hire one. I trained for years to do what I do, and I was being assertive with them as they tried to pull a fast one. Perhaps standing up for yourself teaches employers a lesson.
One recent Irish employer open admitted to me (after a heated row), that Irish staff won't work for him, and he has to get staff from Russia and ukraine. Sounds like pretty disgusting carry on to me.

listermint

lufties wrote: »

OK, so how does that make any sense? If they wanted a cleaner then they should hire one. I trained for years to do what I do, and I was being assertive with them as they tried to pull a fast one. Perhaps standing up for yourself teaches employers a lesson.
One recent Irish employer open admitted to me (after a heated row), that Irish staff won't work for him, and he has to get staff from Russia and ukraine. Sounds like pretty disgusting carry on to me.

You never specified cleaning.

You also don't seem to enjoy the job but are pleased to project abject ideas about the entire country based on the few jobs you have worked.

Sorry but no , i have not experienced what you have so therefore it's not country specific.

Also there are Germans that will tell you that Germany had too much red tape in their workplace.... But hey i don't sit here saying Germany is too rigid but that's because it's sensible not to paint and entire country.


Misconception

lufties

JayZeus wrote: »

It's not just about the working culture in Ireland. It's how your experiences have shaped your expectations and how you will or won't bend to fit with it.

10 years working in 6 different countries is a broad base of experience, but how much of that has been a truly immersive experience, where you've been in one place long enough to really know?

You must realise that it's not realistic to expect that every boss will be a nice person, patient, caring and understanding of your needs as an individual. It's idealistic but not at all realistic. This means you'll either have to keep moving around, looking to find someone to work for who will cater to all your individual requirements from a manager/boss/employer, or you'll have to adjust your expectations accordingly.

I have a lot of experience myself working in other European countries, for several years per country at a time. There are pros and cons to the workplace and societal cultural norms in each of those places and while the first 12-24 months might be great, time passes and you realise there are always objectionable practices/rules/behaviours lurking just beneath the surface.

What kind of industry and what sized company are you having these experiences with, as a matter of interest? It varies wildly depending on the internal/external pressures they're experiencing, so it's a relevant question.

Well you maybe correct, but from what I've seen in the UK, they at least have some standards of decent treatment. In Ireland the trend of oppressed becomes oppressor continues. A nation of mini bishop brennans .

lufties

listermint wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

OK, so how does that make any sense? If they wanted a cleaner then they should hire one. I trained for years to do what I do, and I was being assertive with them as they tried to pull a fast one. Perhaps standing up for yourself teaches employers a lesson.
One recent Irish employer open admitted to me (after a heated row), that Irish staff won't work for him, and he has to get staff from Russia and ukraine. Sounds like pretty disgusting carry on to me.

You never specified cleaning.

You also don't seem to enjoy the job but are pleased to project abject ideas about the entire country based on the few jobs you have worked.

Sorry but no , i have not experienced what you have so therefore it's not country specific.

Also there are Germans that will tell you that Germany had too much red tape in their workplace.... But hey i don't sit here saying Germany is too rigid but that's because it's sensible not to paint and entire country.


Misconception

How can you gather that I don't like my job? In fairness it sounds like you are blinkered, and using a diversion tactic.

I've worked for the same company in both Ireland and Germany, and let me tell you that in Germany it was far far more laid back, with no bullying culture. People just do their job without any crap.

erica74

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Oh and the drivel that people spout in management over nothing, it's blindsighted governance and 60 hour weeks full of emails . How can you effectively tie your shoes, let alone greet an employee kindly or lead effectively.

Another thing is the blame centric prince2 culture we have here and passing the buck, I've seen so many managers sink ships due to their inability to delegate. It also inhibits innovation. In my company collaboration is a company coffee morning

What is the "blame centric prince2 culture"?

lufties wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the recession. The best work standards I've seen is Germany. The strange thing is, they still get the job done without being bullies (,for the most part).

The first job I took in Ireland in Jan, I was asked to do a task outside my scope of work, when I refused I was threatened that with 'this is small industry in Ireland', basically alluding to 'word gets around'. There is no doubt in my mind that a bullying culture exists here. I wish management would take a step back and realise that if you treat employees well, the will be more productive.

How far outside your "scope of work" was it?
Any contract I've had has always said something along the lines of "from time to time you may be required to do additional tasks to meet the requirements of the organisation", which kind of covers getting asked to do something that you think isn't in your job description.

lufties

erica74 wrote: »

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Oh and the drivel that people spout in management over nothing, it's blindsighted governance and 60 hour weeks full of emails . How can you effectively tie your shoes, let alone greet an employee kindly or lead effectively.

Another thing is the blame centric prince2 culture we have here and passing the buck, I've seen so many managers sink ships due to their inability to delegate. It also inhibits innovation. In my company collaboration is a company coffee morning

What is the "blame centric prince2 culture"?

lufties wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the recession. The best work standards I've seen is Germany. The strange thing is, they still get the job done without being bullies (,for the most part).

The first job I took in Ireland in Jan, I was asked to do a task outside my scope of work, when I refused I was threatened that with 'this is small industry in Ireland', basically alluding to 'word gets around'. There is no doubt in my mind that a bullying culture exists here. I wish management would take a step back and realise that if you treat employees well, the will be more productive.

How far outside your "scope of work" was it?
Any contract I've had has always said something along the lines of "from time to time you may be required to do additional tasks to meet the requirements of the organisation", which kind of covers getting asked to do something that you think isn't in your job description.

Well that was never in my contract fortunately.

listermint

lufties wrote: »

How can you gather that I don't like my job? In fairness it sounds like you are blinkered, and using a diversion tactic.

I've worked for the same company in both Ireland and Germany, and let me tell you that in Germany it was far far more laid back, with no bullying culture. People just do their job without any crap.

So you worked for the same company in a different country.

Sounds like you don't have the vast experience of workplaces to be making threads casting aspersions about the ethic of and entire country.

Wompa1

Is this in Dublin or somewhere else in Ireland that you're talking about?

I left Ireland over 5 years ago. I worked very hard there but it was more myself putting that pressure on.

I'm in the US now, where you're expected to do free overtime. In two jobs I've had here it has been stated verbally to our team (so no paper trail, of course) that we were expected to work at least 5 hours of overtime a week.

lufties

Wompa1 wrote: »

Is this in Dublin or somewhere else in Ireland that you're talking about?

I left Ireland over 5 years ago. I worked very hard there but it was more myself putting that pressure on.

I'm in the US now, where you're expected to do free overtime. In two jobs I've had here it has been stated verbally to our team (so no paper trail, of course) that we were expected to work at least 5 hours of overtime a week.

No not Dublin, the west of Ireland. Perhaps though its move of a hick rural work like a dog until you drop mentality.

Neon_Lights

erica74 wrote: »

What is the "blame centric prince2 culture"?

If you didn't read between the lines prince2 is a project management strategy okay with projects failing as long as there's someone to blame

Sign off, sign off, sign off

It reduces the quality of output as you then have individuals reluctant to get involved/collaborate/take ownership

I see it in the office the whole time, work that could have been done in house is outsourced, and you have capable people weakling out of responsibility because of it

screamer

I think people in Ireland generally work very hard. I've also worked in huge multi nationals and been in Germany where I have to say I saw a work to rule culture and a work environment with no comradery or fun. So that's far from. Ideal TBH. As a manager if I had someone say that's not in my contract... we've all been asked to do things not in our contracts now and again as contracts cannot explicitly list every nitty gritty thing..... now and again if you show no flexibility you'll get none either.

j4vier

screamer wrote:

I think people in Ireland generally work very hard. I've also worked in huge multi nationals and been in Germany where I have to say I saw a work to rule culture and a work environment with no comradery or fun. So that's far from. Ideal TBH. As a manager if I had someone say that's not in my contract... we've all been asked to do things not in our contracts now and again as contracts cannot explicitly list every nitty gritty thing..... now and again if you show no flexibility you'll get none either.

The problem is when you do something once without objecting and it's interpreted as "they've done it once and not objected, therefore.. "

Then the once off becomes a regular thing.

Also how flexible is flexible? For the employer that concept is obviously comprehensive of literally everything. It's up to the employee to decide if what they have been asked to do is reasonable.

lufties

j4vier wrote: »

The problem is when you do something once without objecting and it's interpreted as "they've done it once and not objected, therefore.. "

Then the once off becomes a regular thing.

Also how flexible is flexible? For the employer that concept is obviously comprehensive of literally everything. It's up to the employee to decide if what they have been asked to do is reasonable.

There's too much reliance on good will, and pushing people to the limit. If you are being paid or treated well, you might go over and above. However, what I've noticed is that some management rely on instilling fear and beating the person down into compliance. Strong, confident people do not put up with this carry on.

the-island-man

lufties wrote: »

Wompa1 wrote: »

Is this in Dublin or somewhere else in Ireland that you're talking about?

I left Ireland over 5 years ago. I worked very hard there but it was more myself putting that pressure on.

I'm in the US now, where you're expected to do free overtime. In two jobs I've had here it has been stated verbally to our team (so no paper trail, of course) that we were expected to work at least 5 hours of overtime a week.

No not Dublin, the west of Ireland. Perhaps though its move of a hick rural work like a dog until you drop mentality.

Now you're calling people from the west of Ireland hicks. I don't think this is a cultural thing, I just think your boss doesn't like you.

lufties

the-island-man wrote: »

Now you're calling people from the west of Ireland hicks. I don't think this is a cultural thing, I just think your boss doesn't like you.

It was a joke, and the interactions I had with my ex boss were very limited. I guess the problem lies in that I had been used to a certain standard of working in England. Then returned to Ireland expecting things to be as good, but the mentality is definitely different. I get the feeling that in Ireland, its count yourself very lucky to even have a job. This is justified given how the country has been over the last decade.

the-island-man

There is a lot of unknowns here:

1. What sector are you in?
2. What is the size of the company
3. What was supply and demand for Employers where you worked in England?

The west of Ireland does not have a wealth of opportunities. There are some great multinationals that pay well and treat their staff well but for an SME in Galway that is trying to make sales to outside Ireland or even in Dublin it is a hard slog for all involved. The two airports in the west only really serve the US and Britain and neither have any meaningful public transport.
I do think you are generalising though. What is the revenue of the companies you are comparing?  I work in I.T and I am currently working abroad having worked in three different places in Galway. I think it's easy to treat your staff well when the company is rolling in money!!

lufties

the-island-man wrote: »

There is a lot of unknowns here:

1. What sector are you in?
2. What is the size of the company
3. What was supply and demand for Employers where you worked in England?

The west of Ireland does not have a wealth of opportunities. There are some great multinationals that pay well and treat their staff well but for an SME in Galway that is trying to make sales to outside Ireland or even in Dublin it is a hard slog for all involved. The two airports in the west only really serve the US and Britain and neither have any meaningful public transport.
I do think you are generalising though. What is the revenue of the companies you are comparing?  I work in I.T and I am currently working abroad having worked in three different places in Galway. I think it's easy to treat your staff well when the company is rolling in money!!

Aviation engineering. I think it is about supply and demand. It seems that in shannon , companies have people at their disposal. However, some companies are still very short staffed, but I'd argue that the culture of work your backside off for peanuts hasn't changed.

DeanAustin

The prevalence of passive aggressive behaviour annoys me the most. I hate listening to those stories about how someone got one up on someone else by making some sarcastic passive aggressive remark that may or may not have been picked up by the recipient. Worse still is when it's done by email.

Communication is hard enough without having to try and read what people "really mean". It's sh1tyy, spineless behaviour. Have we become that afraid of confrontation that we have to hide behind passive aggression all the time?

Wanderer2010

Has anyone noticed how differently permanent staff are treated compared to contract workers in multi-nationals? I was run ragged and bullied and threatened when on contract but when you get full time, the managers seem to forget about you and move on to the next contractor.

Your Face

I know if I spoke about a country or its people, like the OP is about Ireland, I would be called a racist.

Glenster

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Has anyone noticed how differently permanent staff are treated compared to contract workers in multi-nationals? I was run ragged and bullied and threatened when on contract but when you get full time, the managers seem to forget about you and move on to the next contractor.

Ive been on contracts and permanent and ive never felt a difference in treatment.

In some companies ive had permanent staff say to me "why do you let him speak to you like that" about a manager who has made an innocuous request. So the percieved difference might be in attitude.