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Caretaker's agreement when buying house

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  • 25-04-2017 11:37am
    #1
    chocfan
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭


    Hi

    Just wondering have people experienced this before. We're first time buyers (renting at the moment) and have gone sale agreed on a property

    Our solicitor emailed me this morning saying the vendors were looking to remain in the property for approximately 2 weeks following the closing of the transation on foot of a caretaker's agreement. I've emailed her back asking for her advice on same and if this is common practice

    Just curious has anybody else ever done this or know if it's a common thing? I assume that they would be paying rent for these 2 weeks as we would have to draw down our mortgage and would still be paying rent so I wouldn't agree to it if we were out of pocked as a result.

    I'm also wondering do we have to sort stuff like PRTB etc??? I would assume for a 2 week period like this that we wouldn't but am not sure. That sounds like more hassle than it's worth

    All thoughts/opinions very welcome

    CF


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    #2
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,990 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    To me it looks like they are trying to get 2 weeks rent free from you while they close out the mortgage on the house you are buying and getting into the house they want to buy. Since that that you'd need to extend your own rental by 2 weeks I'd say no.


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    #3
    caviardreams
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Why not suggest you close 2 weeks later? Hypothetically, what happens if they damage the property in the interim two weeks, post the close of sale inspection? Very unlikely I know but I would not be keen on it. You should get the keys the day you close imo - and if the date needs to be put back so be it.


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    #4
    chocfan
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭chocfan


    I'd be inclined to agree with both of you and thanks very much for your opinions.

    I imagine suggesting I close two weeks later won't help them as (as Del2005 pointed out) they probably want to get the money from me, have it cleared from the banks etc and then have the funds in place to move into their new property a fortnight later.

    My solicitor hasn't gotten back to me and it's still not clear to me if they would be suggesting that they pay rent or not. If they don't intend to compensate us, it's absolutely off the table as I'm certainly not being put out of pocket by paying a mortgage and rent for those 2 weeks but even if they do offer to pay and it would cover my excess rent, I think I'm still reluctant as (as per caviardreams), there could be damage done during those 2 weeks even if it's accidental. A colleague has also pointed out to me that it could be an insurance issue potentially if anything happened as I'm buying my house to live in myself and not rent out etc so mightn't be covered in the event of something big like a fire (unlikely but not impossible)

    I don't see how we get anything out of this so I think it'll be a no!


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    #5
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    I'd wonder why they want to stay an extra two weeks, as it's an extra two weeks from unknown date (closure of sale not yet set in stone).

    I'd ask. If they don't wish to say, flat no. If it's a deal breaker, I'd wonder wtf?


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    #6
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    If it's a no then they are likely to just overhold beyond the closing (delaying same). Practically there is very little you can do for that short a period of time. I'd be inclined to agree to it as a licencee agreement (if that's even possible), given a reasonable consideration and if they don't move out after two weeks just move in yourself.

    I do wonder though - are any issues arising with mortgages and vacant possesion?


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    #7
    chocfan
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭chocfan


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    If it's a no then they are likely to just overhold beyond the closing (delaying same). Practically there is very little you can do for that short a period of time. I'd be inclined to agree to it as a licencee agreement (if that's even possible), given a reasonable consideration and if they don't move out after two weeks just move in yourself.

    I do wonder though - are any issues arising with mortgages and vacant possesion?

    Hadn't thought about a licencee type agreement. I don't really understand how it all works to be honest! Thought for a licencee you had to be living in the house with them? But might have that all wrong

    What do you mean about issues with mortgage and vacant possession? Do you mean a situation like this

    It's all a bit of a minefield! Just hoping it goes through


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    #8
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Generally vacant possesion (empty gaffe) is required and the solicitor has a duty to police that before the payment can be made to the other side. I've heard of caretaker agreements for the buyer - I almost ended up with one myself, but never for the vendor.

    That siad just throwing out some musings here - your solicitor will advise.


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    #9
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Generally vacant possesion (empty gaffe) is required and the solicitor has a duty to police that before the payment can be made to the other side. I've heard of caretaker agreements for the buyer - I almost ended up with one myself, but never for the vendor.

    That siad just throwing out some musings here - your solicitor will advise.

    +1 - normally lenders will not make a mortgage available, unless you have vacant possession of the property.

    Its highly irregular- I wouldn't countenance it- the only thing that makes any sense is closing two weeks hence- but they are playing games with you, regardless of how you look at it.


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    #10
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Another way to look at it; why should they leave, if they're there after they sell it to you?


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    #11
    dusty207
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭dusty207


    chocfan wrote: »
    I imagine suggesting I close two weeks later won't help them as (as Del2005 pointed out) they probably want to get the money from me, have it cleared from the banks etc and then have the funds in place to move into their new property a fortnight later.

    I don't see how we get anything out of this so I think it'll be a no!

    Do you know for a fact that they're buying a property?


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    #12
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,474 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
    chocfan wrote: »
    I imagine suggesting I close two weeks later won't help them as (as Del2005 pointed out) they probably want to get the money from me, have it cleared from the banks etc and then have the funds in place to move into their new property a fortnight later

    That's what bridging loans are for. There's no benefit to you to close the sale, agree a handover date and then not move in for another two weeks.

    If the vendor needs to manage their cashflow that's their problem not yours.


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    #13
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=


    That's what bridging loans are for. There's no benefit to you to close the sale, agree a handover date and then not move in for another two weeks.

    If the vendor needs to manage their cashflow that's their problem not yours.

    Bridging loans are very much things of the past. Haven't heard of anyone getting one since the end of the Tiger


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    #14
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    If they want 2 weeks from the time they get the money for the sale of the house to close out their own purchase then what happens if it doesn't work out for them. If their own purchase falls through then there is the very real possibility they will try to stay beyond 2 weeks and if they dig their heels in and refuse to move at that point you could have a hard time kicking them out. You would be legally within your right to kick them out, but that doesn't mean it won't take a long time to actually get them out.


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    #15
    Sesame
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Sesame


    We were on a caretakers agreement as buyers for months. Place we were buying had a very long sale process but we lived in it while it was ongoing.
    A caretakers agreement is like a tenancy but with very few rights. We paid the vendor a rent while we were there which we agreed amongst ourselves. It was less than market rate s we were under a promise to buy, but you can charge what you like.

    If I was in your shoes, I would let them stay there for the 2 weeks under a caretakers agreement, if its not going to inconvenience you. But definitely charge them a rent for it. That could be more or less than market rate. How desperate are they for it? You can use this to your advantage to get the most from them and then use that money for renovations/etc.

    Also, make sure theres insurance in place, a landlord insurance should cover it which you will need to arrange as you will be the legal owners of the house. But obviously, send them the bill.


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    #16
    Grawns
    Registered Users Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Grawns


    As a seller I made a caretaker agreement a condition of the sales contract.


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    #17
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Something else to consider- is strictly speaking- you become a landlord and they your tenant- if they decide to screw you around, you could have the devil's own time trying to persuade them to leave........ E.g. if their proposed purchase falls through- your two weeks, could become 2-3 months, then 6 months- and presto they're on Part IV tenancy rights........

    Honestly- while I am painting a worse case scenario- these things can and do happen.........


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    #18
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    I know someone who did something like that and it was a disaster. There are all kinds of problems with insurance, RTB, tax declarations etc.


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    #19
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,328 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Something else to consider- is strictly speaking- you become a landlord and they your tenant- if they decide to screw you around, you could have the devil's own time trying to persuade them to leave........ E.g. if their proposed purchase falls through- your two weeks, could become 2-3 months, then 6 months- and presto they're on Part IV tenancy rights........

    Honestly- while I am painting a worse case scenario- these things can and do happen.........

    A true caretakers agreement shouldn't involve any rent and this no RTA issues. A fairly technical point as I would agree that there is no upside to completing a purchase and allowing the to remain in situ for such a short period. If it's 2 weeks, I would simply delay completion to ensure I had limited liability. If it was a sale but they wanted to remain for a year, I might be willing to complete now and let it go them with a very large deposit and a price discount rather than rent.


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    #20
    juke
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭juke


    Marcusm wrote: »
    A true caretakers agreement shouldn't involve any rent and this no RTA issues. .

    I'd go so far as to say "can't" otherwise it's a tenancy.

    OP - also remember, aside from the fact that your solicitor should have informed you that such an agreement would probably be against the terms of your mortgage, s/he should also have told you that your house insurance company may also need to informed.


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    #21
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,793 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It isn't a genuine caretakers agreement. You don't need, want or desire a caretaker. You want a home. They won't be acting as caretakers. They will just be staying in situ because it suits them.

    I just can't see the sense in this. If they need a short term rental, they can go on airbnb. If they don't want to move out of the house for a further two weeks, then they can just close two weeks later.

    If they really have to have a caretakers agreement, then one or other of the solicitors should hold the proceeds (money you are paying for the house) in trust until they actually do move out. The solicitor can also pay for your rent while they are 'caretaking' your home and your bank interest out of the proceeds.


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    #22
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    If they really have to have a caretakers agreement, then one or other of the solicitors should hold the proceeds (money you are paying for the house) in trust until they actually do move out. The solicitor can also pay for your rent while they are 'caretaking' your home and your bank interest out of the proceeds.

    It'll be moot in all liklihood- as the OP won't be allowed by their lender to draw down the mortgage in the absence of vacant possession?

    OP- I think the concensus is- don't go down this road. If it is only two weeks- let the seller close two weeks later- what they are proposing is stacked in their favour, there is absolutely nothing in it for you.

    If this means putting your possessions into storage for a couple of weeks- and staying in a hotel- do it- or get the seller to do it- but the proposal thats been put to you, quite simply, doesn't fly.


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    #23
    chocfan
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭chocfan


    Thanks for all the opinions and advice

    I've been chatting with our solicitor and we're definitely not going to go ahead with it. As was pointed out, there's not really anything in it for us and we'll just want to move in when we get the keys. There's also the whole aspect of their sale falling through and the hassle it might cause so it's a definite no

    I hope it doesn't affect the sale but I can't imagine that it will. might make them a bit more awkward to deal with though :rolleyes:

    Thanks all!


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    #24
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    chocfan wrote: »
    Thanks for all the opinions and advice

    I've been chatting with our solicitor and we're definitely not going to go ahead with it. As was pointed out, there's not really anything in it for us and we'll just want to move in when we get the keys. There's also the whole aspect of their sale falling through and the hassle it might cause so it's a definite no

    I hope it doesn't affect the sale but I can't imagine that it will. might make them a bit more awkward to deal with though :rolleyes:

    Thanks all!

    Your solicitors are looking after your best interests and I'd agree with them.

    When we were buying last time the vendor mooted the notion of staying on for two weeks after closing and our solicitors wouldn't even entertain them. Just the question of insurance ... an absolute minefield that you have no control of and have to accept all the risks


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