Accountability of developers in Ireland

taxdither

Hi,
I have paid advance for a house in one of the major development by a well known developer (not putting the names as I am not sure if allowed) in the last October based on a show house. All along it was nice and sweet words that the houses will be exactly as per the houses - not even colour of the will be changed even at our own cost. We expected the house will very close to the show house.
When we inspected it for snagging, inside the building was as per the show house but there was a steep slope in the garden with the formation of valley and water pond in the middle of the garden, and two randomly placed big manholes. There was no mention of these issues either at the time of the booking the house or in the contract document.

The developers agent quite curtly said over the phone that they will not do anything and I am free to take my money back. They wont even give the safety file of the property which would give details of how they addressed the above two issues. They neither responded formally to my snag report.

I am dealing it through my solicitor. If I don't get a positive response, I don't want leave it there but pursue it on my own. As a customer paying 300k, I would like to know what rights do I have and where to start - citizens information, consumer court, county council.
Appreciate any guidance.

athtrasna

If your solicitor can't sort it, what makes you think you can do it on your own? Your solicitor's job is to protect your best interests within the law.

Have you gone through the contract? I'd be very surprised if the developer hasn't covered themselves.

And finally, legal advice is not permitted on boards so posters are reminded not to cross that line. Thanks

taxdither

I am told by a frd that the solicitors standard remit is mainly contract signing, transfer of money and registry works. Enforcement of contract will be outside their standard fee remit. That's the reason I am exploring it in parallel. I am only asking do I have to succumb to the developer's bullying or do I have any rights. If so where to start.

wirelessdude01

Well I would imagine manhole covers have a purpose and possibly the garden just isn't finished yet? What does the contract state re finish on garden?

C3PO

What sort of "rights" are you looking for? You have already been told that you can have your money back if you don't want to complete the purchase. You can be fairly sure that the manholes are not "randomly placed" but serve a specific purpose around drainage. It is not realistic to expect each plot to be exactly the same as the show house.

Samuel T. Cogley

This is exactly where a 'cheap' sometimes recommended by the developer solicitor will come back to bite you and a slightly more expensive good, we'll recommend solicitor will pay dividends. It may be beyond the fee even in the latter case but no one works for free. Have your solicitor sort this as it should have all been in the contract. If contracts aren't signed then there is very little you can do.

Also sorry to sound harsh but forget this 'I'm paying a lot of money' lark. It Belongs in consumer land where there are reams of consumer protection. This is reality and needs a good solicitor to navigate. You've seen the prevailing attitude of agents and developers.

Lumen

I would not consider manholes in my garden acceptable unless they solely serviced my own property and I knew exactly what they were for.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

The developer should be able to tell you what they're for. If they're temporary then get agreement to remove them. If they'er permanent then WTF.

ThisRegard

We had a set of manholes in our first house we bought, never knew anything about them until it came close to moving in. They were quickly forgotten about as we kept big plant pots on top of them, and when the kids came along, rubber matting for the play area.

They did slightly limit what we wanted to do with the garden at times, but there wasn't a whole lot we could do about it really other than cover.

Marcusm

Lumen wrote: »

I would not consider manholes in my garden acceptable unless they solely serviced my own property and I knew exactly what they were for.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

The developer should be able to tell you what they're for. If they're temporary then get agreement to remove them. If they'er permanent then WTF.

You do realise that adjacent houses will share sewers, i.e. there is not a single pipe from each house back to the mains connection. At some point on an "estate" there will have to be access to permit remediation works in the event of blockages etc. If that's not the house you want, you'd need to choose one of the two there.

Gumbo

Lumen wrote: »

I would not consider manholes in my garden acceptable unless they solely serviced my own property and I knew exactly what they were for.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

The developer should be able to tell you what they're for. If they're temporary then get agreement to remove them. If they'er permanent then WTF.

No new houses have their own manholes unless you build a one off.
The drainage system in this scheme is a private system and will hit an outfall manhole in one of the gardens and then out to the public system.

It can have its pros though, if there's a blockage the op can easily access them for rodding etc

The manholes will not be displayed on any sales books etc, they would have been on the engineers drainage plans and is often overlooked by buyers.

If you don't want the manholes, then you would have to hand back the house and get your deposit back.

Samuel T. Cogley

Marcusm wrote: »

Lumen wrote: »

I would not consider manholes in my garden acceptable unless they solely serviced my own property and I knew exactly what they were for.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

The developer should be able to tell you what they're for. If they're temporary then get agreement to remove them. If they'er permanent then WTF.

You do realise that adjacent houses will share sewers, i.e. there is not a single pipe from each house back to the mains connection.  At some point on an "estate" there will have to be access to permit remediation works in the event of blockages etc.  If that's not the house you want, you'd need to choose one of the two there.

To be fair I think that's exactly what he was saying. He wouldn't want them if they're shared - my house has it's own sewer access etc. (and a very odd arrangement of the boundary wall) because every time there was a blockage it was my vendors job to sort it out and try and get payment from the rest of the row. Now I assume private estate there would be a management co. but still. Is there a reason they can't be on the road? Genuine question - I've a feeling there will be!

More practically, they don't give me that much bother.

Lumen

Marcusm wrote: »

You do realise that adjacent houses will share sewers, i.e. there is not a single pipe from each house back to the mains connection. At some point on an "estate" there will have to be access to permit remediation works in the event of blockages etc.

kceire wrote: »

The drainage system in this scheme is a private system and will hit an outfall manhole in one of the gardens and then out to the public system.

Does that access have to be in one of the back gardens? Why don't they use a public area?

There are obvious problems with having service access to common infrastructure in someone's back garden. What if the property is locked up and they're away on holidays when access is required? It imposes an unreasonable burden IMO.

Mellor

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Is there a reason they can't be on the road? Genuine question - I've a feeling there will be!

The manholes would be useless in the road, and the sewer that they are servicing runs under the OPs garden.


OP, what was shown on the draining plan when you were purchasing? This would also have shown the levels of the garden. Planning drawings may have shown it also.
If it's not there and turns out to be an change after contracts were signed. What is your preferred resolution?
(FYI if there are there you have no legs to stand on. The shouse plan is a typical and means nothing on a site by site basis).

C3PO

Lumen wrote: »

Does that access have to be in one of the back gardens? Why don't they use a public area?

Probably doesn't "have" to be but in my experience this is very often the way new estates are laid out!

seagull

What does it say in your contract about the garden? All ours had was that it would be levelled and seeded. If your contract has that, and it has a major valley running down the middle, you have a comeback, and can ask them to level it.

Mellor

seagull wrote: »

What does it say in your contract about the garden? All ours had was that it would be levelled and seeded. If your contract has that, and it has a major valley running down the middle, you have a comeback, and can ask them to level it.

I'd imagine not if it was on the plans.

antoinolachtnai

What do you want the builder to do for you? He can't move the sewers now. Have you inspected the sewers? Have you any reason to think that there is ever going to be a problem? Most sewer covers in the world never get lifted in 30 years (and the ones that get lifted tend to be on flat ground, not sloped ground).

If you don't know about drains and sewers yourself, and you are concerned about this, you are going to have to get an engineer to look at this for you.

If he moved in some earth would that solve the problem? Could he get access with earthmoving equipment to do this?

At the end of the day, the property market is rising, there is very little supply and the developer is in a strong position. The developer is not making a whole lot of money on a 300k house. He would be as happy if you walked away and he can get someone else to buy it.

If you can put a proposal to him in conjunction with your engineer, he might be able to resolve the issues.

The solicitor is really the last resort. We don't know all the specifics of your contract, but it is unlikely the solicitor can do much for you to resolve the issue unless you have ten grand handy to go to the High Court with, and you would have to first get advice from counsel and consider the likelihood of winning (there are technical legal reasons why you might not win, or you might not win much of a concession).

From a legal point of view, if you had strict and specific requirements in relation to things like this, you should have supervised the build to a greater extent, or appointed a professional to do it. It is too late to complain after concrete is poured and everything is nearly finished. As it is, the builder might even be able to compel you to take the house as long as it substantially complies with the contract.

Samuel T. Cogley

I think some posters are being very critical of the OP. This is a very simple one, what's in the contract - and it's entirely in the remit of the solicitor to ensure that's complied with before funds are released. If it requires enforcement, it can go to court, which would be the last resort but in a rising market an order for specific performance may very well be cheaper than finding somewhere else and the counter to the like it or lump it attitude of the agent.

antoinolachtnai

That is another way to look at it, and it is worth considering but an order for specific performance is just as likely to end up going the other way. A building contract is a strange thing and you'd want to have your wits about you.

For starters, the OP may not even get to court but could end up in arbitration. The next thing is that even if the judge agrees there is something wrong, the judge is limited in what he can do to compensate you by the law on restitution, which is complicated to understand.

It is certainly worth looking at the contract, but I'd be surprised if what has been built does not substantially comply, or comply well enough to make it difficult for action to be taken against him. It is not the developer's first rodeo.

The best way to force the builder to change something is if it isn't compliant with some statutory provision, i..e, doesn't comply with the planning or building regs, or there is a health and safety issue. But if there is something simple the builder can do to settle you down, they will probably do it with a bit of cajoling.

Samuel T. Cogley

All of this will be advised upon by the solicitor - we have no idea how reasonable or unreasonable the OP is being. However none of it really matters - what's in the contract - the solicitor will advise if it's worth pursuing; they're certainly not the last resort.

antoinolachtnai

It is a very important point in the OP's life and the developer should do more to recognise and honour that, I agree, and it is is a great pity this situation arose. It is certainly a very difficult situation. The OP needs to get the best advice they can so they can hopefully move into their new home and be very happy there.

taxdither

Thank you all for the positive and critical responses - both equally valid and convincing. Let me respond to all the responses.
1) Solicitor is from a reputed organisation and assured me in perusing the case. I don't know how far this will go.
2) The contract document advices me to consult the council at only one place - drainage layout. The drainage layout submitted to the council doesn't show any manholes in my back garden.
3) The contract document does not mention anything about the garden finishes apart from generic word "specifications", which are not included in the contract. When queried I am told specifications of show house and brochure which shows/calls ceded garden.
4) Engineering drawings were not made available at the booking time, nor at the contract signing. They are not even willing to give me the safety file (including drainage drawings to know the upstream and down stream connections, pipe and manhole sizes).
5) The garden is small enough and randomly placed manholes will further restrict the space utilisation. Of course its maintenance will need way leave thus further restricting the land use. If it is to be maintained by the management company or the council how will they gain access to it through my free hold land?
6) I would have tolerated one issue but not both sloping garden and manholes. It was a shocker for me after paying premium over the other houses available at the time.
7) I tried to discuss with the developer to work out a mutually agreeable arrangement but they were curt and said they will not do anything.
8) I know it is the developers market and they can easily say I can withdraw (essentially bullying). Would they have allowed me if I wanted to withdraw for whatever reason if it was a buyers market. Doesn't it mean the contract has no sanctity and its one sided.

taxdither

Would arbitration involve legal charges or I can pursue on my own?
Regulations very generic and would not go the extent of sloping garden or not having manholes etc...My strong point is it is not as per the brochure/show house or the contract that I have signed.

antoinolachtnai

You really are doing the right thing in discussing this with the solicitor. You have to get him to explain the bottom line to you on this.

I think your solicitor might agree with you that the contract is quite one-sided! But ask him.

antoinolachtnai

taxdither wrote: »

Would arbitration involve legal charges or I can pursue on my own?
Regulations very generic and would not go the extent of sloping garden or not having manholes etc...My strong point is it is not as per the brochure/show house or the contract that I have signed.

This would arise if it is provided for in your contract. You would need to pay the arbitrator's fee for starters. This would be thousands of euros. Realistically you would also need to be represented by solicitor and counsel, because the builder would be. You would also need an expert witness.

If you are planning to rely on the brochure or the show house you are going to be in a weak position. If the contract has a lot of specifics about your specific site and your specific house, that might be ok, but there probably aren't a lot of specifics and that is going to be the problem. Losing might have serious consequences too, beyond your costs.

I know this is a tough thing for you. All your hopes and dreams are wrapped up in this. But for the builder and the other people involved, it's a business deal. Unfortunately you have to look at it that way too. It's not nice, but that's the way it is. You should get some professional engineering advice and find out if there is any way to assuage your concerns. It just might not be as bad as you think.

I would suggest you get this advice before you go too much further with the solicitor or with the developer.

Samuel T. Cogley

OP you are massively over thinking this. If it's not in the contract then you can't do anything about it. If it is in the contract then you need to engage with your solicitor for advice. Contract advice is part of the conveyancing solicitors fee as long as it doesn't start getting silly.

What is the issue with speaking to your solicitor re your concerns? Have they suggested there will be an hourly fee?

godtabh

From experience its next to impossible now a days to get back yard services ok'd as an developer. If you do you have right of ways/leave ways and probably knock €50k off the asking price.

antoinolachtnai

godtabh wrote: »

From experience its next to impossible now a days to get back yard services ok'd as an developer. If you do you have right of ways/leave ways and probably knock €50k off the asking price.

OK'd by City/Irish Water?

Just noticed https://www.water.ie/connections/Code-of-Practice-for-Wastewater-Supply.pdf - page 40, might be of help.

I do think that the way to approach this is through having some sort of engineer.

Mellor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

OK'd by City/Irish Water?

Just noticed https://www.water.ie/connections/Code-of-Practice-for-Wastewater-Supply.pdf - page 40, might be of help.

I do think that the way to approach this is through having some sort of engineer.

I imagine he meant ok'd by council.

Irish Water requirements apply to public sewers. The OP is likely dealing with a private sewer.

taxdither wrote: »

2) The contract document advices me to consult the council at only one place - drainage layout. The drainage layout submitted to the council doesn't show any manholes in my back garden.
3) The contract document does not mention anything about the garden finishes apart from generic word "specifications", which are not included in the contract. When queried I am told specifications of show house and brochure which shows/calls ceded garden.

There would probably be a landscape plan showing levels and finishes. The site plan might show levels also.

The planning stage drainage drawing with the council might not show every manhole. But it should show sewer runs. If the completed works is non-compliant with planning, that is probably your best angle.

If you want I can take a look at the PP drawings and conditions. PM if you'd like. Or not, completely your discretion.

Lumen

If you pull out they're going to have to sell it to someone else who will be able to see the manhole covers and slope for themselves, so they can't make this problem go away.

If you buy it without a fight this will annoy you forever.

beauf

Manholes in the garden is pot luck. Unless you've a very reasonable developer. Which is highly unlikely.

It's amazing how in Ireland when buying for most people the most expensive thing in your life, there's no consumer protection. No bond to force the builder to fix problems in a house. Buy the house or walk away seems like the only options.

Madness.