Waterford fallen down the urban scale

JupiterKid

According to the results of the 2016 Census, Waterford city and suburbs had a population of 53,000. This compares to 79,000 for Galway, 100,000 for Limerick and 210,000 for Cork.

Here's the thing though, Waterford once held 4th place in the urban ranking scales. Until the 1980s it was larger than Galway.

So what has happened in the past 35 years?

blue note

I think we were ahead of limerick too in the 60s.

BonnieSituation

Lack of room to expand and stasis on the North bank as a result of misguided cultural inferences of a border.

Shame that the boundary review was knocked on the head because of ridiculous "cultural" opposition.

road_high

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Lack of room to expand and stasis on the North bank as a result of misguided cultural inferences of a border.

Shame that the boundary review was knocked on the head because of ridiculous "cultural" opposition.

Yea, that's the sole reason for the slow growth ...as we all know moving lines on a map has been a well regarded catalyst for growth the world over!
Is there a chromic lack of space elsewhere in Waterford to stifle growth?

Strange how Dublin seems to be burgeoning across Leinster regardless of boundaries.

BonnieSituation

road_high wrote: »

Yea, that's the sole reason for the slow growth ...as we all know moving lines on a map has been a well regarded catalyst for growth the world over!
Is there a chromic lack of space elsewhere in Waterford to stifle growth?

Strange how Dublin seems to be burgeoning across Leinster regardless of boundaries.

ha ah.

In fairness it is one reason. And it was mostly tongue incheek.

The recent municipal district changes in Limerick for example, have increased the "real" size of Lk's population. So "lines on a map" do have an effect.

The boundary change would have helped Waterford in a sense that it could have a coherent strategy available to it as an option if it so choose over a more full area of its environs.

Dublin's expansion is as a result of retarded planning practice and a fear of public transport infrastructure and tall houses with no gardens.

Squidvicious

I would put a lot of it down to third level education. Galway and Limerick have both a university and an IT. The actual population attending these colleges alone will affect population figures but more importantly, these universities assist in attracting other forms of investment.

Another factor is that Limerick and Galway are important regional centres in a way that Waterford isn't quite. For example, Limerick is the undisputed capital of a much larger county and is also the clear centre of the Mid-West. Waterford isn't even the undisputed capital of its own county. Galway is in a similar position to Limerick. However, Waterford does not have the same numerical advantage as Galway and Limerick over it's local rivals such as Kilkenny and Wexford so investments funds from government tend to be spread a bit more evenly across the region or often don't reach the region at all as resources for the entire region are routed to Cork or Dublin instead.

I'm sure that there are other reasons but I think that the above two are very significant.

Harry Palmr

JupiterKid wrote: »

Here's the thing though, Waterford once held 4th place in the urban ranking scales. Until the 1980s it was larger than Galway.

So what has happened in the past 35 years?

Something I've posted about a few times over the years!

What happened was that Galway became the place outside Dublin - they got the university, they got the permanent seat at the Cabinet table (check the difference in that regard between Galway and Waterford), they played the artsy culture game (never underestimate the influence of soft power in shaping perception).

Waterford went on strike throughout the 80s (see North Quay) and relied hugely on one industry - the Glass which was in a long term decline. Our public image was terrible and it's still poor enough because people have long memories.

BBM77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Something I've posted about a few times over the years!

What happened was that Galway became the place outside Dublin - they got the university, they got the permanent seat at the Cabinet table (check the difference in that regard between Galway and Waterford), they played the artsy culture game (never underestimate the influence of soft power in shaping perception).

Waterford went on strike throughout the 80s (see North Quay) and relied hugely on one industry - the Glass which was in a long term decline. Our public image was terrible and it's still poor enough because people have long memories.

I don’t disagree with you, there were clearly a lot of strikes, but this “Waterford went on strike throughout the 80s” is a bit harsh, the perception I am referring to not having a go at you.

At the time Waterford had believe it or not had the biggest industrial estate in the country and a very high proportion of its jobs overall were in the manufacturing industry, higher than most of the rest of the country if not all. The 70’s and 80’s was a time of huge industrial unrest in many western countries, as a city with a large manufacturing base Waterford was bound to have been more affected by the industrial unrest of the time than the rest of the country. This perception that Waterford is prone to strikes is hugely unfair. It comes up from time to time but nobody has ever been able to back it up with any facts to show Waterford loses more days to strikes.

Also, there was a certain amount of begrudgery towards Waterford with the success of Waterford Crystal at a time when the country seemed to be going nowhere economically. This did not help either.

The reason Waterford fell behind Galway was that, again Waterford had a very high proportion of its jobs overall in the manufacturing industry. People at the time in Waterford tended to go straight into the manufacturing industry after school. For that reason Waterford had lower levels of entrepreneurship and college attendance as there was the security of a job in the manufacturing industry at a time when starting a business was very risky and going to college would leave you with a qualification that there was no jobs for in the country. Because of this and the lack of having a university when the economy turned around in the 90’s and Ireland started getting high skilled jobs Waterford was at a disadvantage in attracting these types of companies. The older industries tended to move to cheaper economies and Waterford’s unemployment rate creeped up.

To make matters worse in the 90’s when Fine Gael was in power Ivan Yeats removed the IDA regional director from the southeast because he was getting too many companies for Waterford. It beggars belief but that was the attitude behind it and that still exists to this day. The Cork regional director took over and again Waterford was left at a disadvantage.

To my mind the success of Waterford as it is today is not a case of falling behind but a sign of how resilient a city it is in the face of the many difficulties it has faced over the last 50 years or so coupled with incredibly unfair treatment from government.

Bards

BBM77 wrote: »

I don’t disagree with you, there were clearly a lot of strikes, but this “Waterford went on strike throughout the 80s” is a bit harsh, the perception I am referring to not having a go at you.

At the time Waterford had believe it or not had the biggest industrial estate in the country and a very high proportion of its jobs overall were in the manufacturing industry, higher than most of the rest of the country if not all. The 70’s and 80’s was a time of huge industrial unrest in many western countries, as a city with a large manufacturing base Waterford was bound to have been more affected by the industrial unrest of the time than the rest of the country. This perception that Waterford is prone to strikes is hugely unfair. It comes up from time to time but nobody has ever been able to back it up with any facts to show Waterford loses more days to strikes.

Also, there was a certain amount of begrudgery towards Waterford with the success of Waterford Crystal at a time when the country seemed to be going nowhere economically. This did not help either.

The reason Waterford fell behind Galway was that, again Waterford had a very high proportion of its jobs overall in the manufacturing industry. People at the time in Waterford tended to go straight into the manufacturing industry after school. For that reason Waterford had lower levels of entrepreneurship and college attendance as there was the security of a job in the manufacturing industry at a time when starting a business was very risky and going to college would leave you with a qualification that there was no jobs for in the country. Because of this and the lack of having a university when the economy turned around in the 90’s and Ireland started getting high skilled jobs Waterford was at a disadvantage in attracting these types of companies. The older industries tended to move to cheaper economies and Waterford’s unemployment rate creeped up.

To make matters worse in the 90’s when Fine Gael was in power Ivan Yeats removed the IDA regional director from the southeast because he was getting too many companies for Waterford. It beggars belief but that was the attitude behind it and that still exists to this day. The Cork regional director took over and again Waterford was left at a disadvantage.

To my mind the success of Waterford as it is today is not a case of falling behind but a sign of how resilient a city it is in the face of the many difficulties it has faced over the last 50 years or so coupled with incredibly unfair treatment from government.

I agree 100% of the above. and I think Waterford will only get fair treatment if pressure is put on the Govt of the day by outside influence.

To get the ball rolling. I would urge the City Council to twin this City with Montana and start lobbying the Montana Governor to try and influence our own Government.

Harry Palmr

The Saudis may be more useful in this regard!

Road-Hog

Bards wrote: »

I agree 100% of the above. and I think Waterford will only get fair treatment if pressure is put on the Govt of the day by outside influence.

To get the ball rolling. I would urge the City Council to twin this City with Montana and start lobbying the Montana Governor to try and influence our own Government.

Montana, wtf? I take it you are being sarcastic?

Squidvicious

To pick up on points raised by a few posters above, Waterford has clearly suffered from a lack of political "pull". That goes back to size in my view. Waterford has only ever been a four-seat constituency and 1/2 of these TD's were "West" based who were not really committed to driving growth in the city. The city is seen as being a bit too remote from parts of the county. Effectively Waterford city has between 2 and 3 TD's fighting its corner. Contrast that with Limerick which today, city and county, has 7 TD's(in the past 6) and similarly Galway with two constituencies, East and West. I would guess that parts of East Co. Galway may also be a small bit detached from Galway city too, but Galway overall always still had way more political clout than Waterford. Political power counts.

It's interesting that Waterford currently needs is it €50m from government to finance the proposed North Wharf development? It will be interesting to see if funds are forthcoming. If not, it will be an interesting contrast with Limerick which is getting €500m from government for its Limerick 2030 project. Now, I certainly don't begrudge Limerick that money but you would think that €50m ought to be available for Waterford too.

lawred2

A population of 53000 would be classed as a town in most European countries.

Harry Palmr

Road-Hog wrote: »

Montana, wtf? I take it you are being sarcastic?

Sounds unlikely but do not underestimate the size of American state universities even if the state is not an obvious one.

However Georgia might be a better bet as there are links already

https://www.wit.ie/news/other/wit-welcomes-delegation-from-technical-college-system-of-georgia

https://tcsg.edu/

Irishlad2014

lawred2 wrote: »

A population of 53000 would be classed as a town in most European countries.

Well in the European country I live in there are many cities (with mayors and city halls) that have populations barely over 10,000.
For an urban area to be a city it is not all down to population.

Deiseen

lawred2 wrote: »

A population of 53000 would be classed as a town in most European countries.

And in a lot of countries Cork, Limerick and Galway would all be considered towns too. What's your point? It's Ireland we are talking about here.

Bards

Road-Hog wrote: »

Montana, wtf? I take it you are being sarcastic?

Thomas Francis Meagher

Deiseen

It's also worth noting that this doesn't include Ferrybank which IS in Waterford city with a population of about 5000. You also have Tramore out the road with a population over 10,000 which is basically a suburb of Waterford.

The cities population is closer to 60,000-70,000 because of this but listing the population in this way would justify certain benefits for Waterford that the Government just do not want to provide.

Squidvicious

Deiseen wrote: »

It's also worth noting that this doesn't include Ferrybank which IS in Waterford city with a population of about 5000. You also have Tramore out the road with a population over 10,000 which is basically a suburb of Waterford.

The cities population is closer to 60,000-70,000 because of this but listing the population in this way would justify certain benefits for Waterford that the Government just do not want to provide.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/212681/council-moves-to-clarify-population-of-limerick-city.html

You make a fair point and the link above shows what was done in Limerick. However, there's an element of "where do you draw the line" whenever you're estimating a city's population. In many ways, you're right about Tramore, but you could possibly make the same point about Oranmore in Co. Galway too.

The main question to my mind is whether Waterford has grown as quickly as comparable cities. I'd say that most of us would agree that it hasn't. If so, the questions are why, what can be done to make it grow more quickly or perhaps whether some of us might actually be happy with slower growth?

Deiseen

Squidvicious wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

It's also worth noting that this doesn't include Ferrybank which IS in Waterford city with a population of about 5000. You also have Tramore out the road with a population over 10,000 which is basically a suburb of Waterford.

The cities population is closer to 60,000-70,000 because of this but listing the population in this way would justify certain benefits for Waterford that the Government just do not want to provide.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/212681/council-moves-to-clarify-population-of-limerick-city.html

You make a fair point and the link above shows what was done in Limerick. However, there's an element of "where do you draw the line" whenever you're estimating a city's population. In many ways, you're right about Tramore, but you could possibly make the same point about Oranmore in Co. Galway too.

The main question to my mind is whether Waterford has grown as quickly as comparable cities. I'd say that most of us would agree that it hasn't. If so, the questions are why, what can be done to make it grow more quickly or perhaps whether some of us might actually be happy with slower growth?

What person in there right mind would be happy with slower growth and the unemployment that comes with it???

There's an argument for slower growth in boom towns but generally speaking growth is vital.

Squidvicious

Deiseen wrote: »

What person in there right mind would be happy with slower growth and the unemployment that comes with it???

There's an argument for slower growth in boom towns but generally speaking growth is vital.

I know. Burn the witch:D.
Not everyone wants rapid growth. Some people might just not fancy living in a rapidly expanding city, that's all. I'm not advocating it, merely saying that some people might value living in a smaller city, less traffic, less congestion etc. Some might feel that growth will be of no benefit to them.

Then again, if slower growth is supposed to bring less traffic congestion, Waterford has lost out on that score!

Max Powers

Deiseen wrote: »

What person in there right mind would be happy with slower growth and the unemployment that comes with it???

There's an argument for slower growth in boom towns but generally speaking growth is vital.

Excluding some old/retired people who don't care how the economy is going or have any loved ones depending on economy...An idiot is basically that answer to first bit.

Taxburden carrier

Max Powers wrote: »

Excluding some old/retired people who don't care how the economy is going or have any loved ones depending on economy...An idiot is basically that answer to first bit.

The entire world economy is run by old/retired people

Squidvicious

I doubt that there are many people in Waterford who are actively against faster growth for the city. But I'd say that there are an awful lot who really couldn't give a fiddler's one way or another.

Max Powers

Squidvicious wrote: »

I doubt that there are many people in Waterford who are actively against faster growth for the city. But I'd say that there are an awful lot who really couldn't give a fiddler's one way or another.

I doubt a lot, idiots everywhere though.

please helpThank YOU

Two New Motorways linking Waterford City with Cork City and Limerick City. And New Waterford City University and Waterford City will be booming economy.

dzilla

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Two New Motorways linking Waterford City with Cork City and Limerick City. And New Waterford City University and Waterford City will be booming economy.

Don't need two motorways.

Motorway to Limerick and join the Dublin Motorway to Cork at Cahir.

fuzzy dunlop

JupiterKid wrote: »

According to the results of the 2016 Census, Waterford city and suburbs had a population of 53,000. This compares to 79,000 for Galway, 100,000 for Limerick and 210,000 for Cork.

Here's the thing though, Waterford once held 4th place in the urban ranking scales. Until the 1980s it was larger than Galway.

So what has happened in the past 35 years?

First off! This is not news. Galway surpassed Waterford in population some time in the 1980's.  But to answer your question as to what happened the simple answer is this: The government in an effort to create a city of significant critical mass to stop the "decline" of the West has since 1970 approx poured massive amounts of money and made huge efforts to locate FDI in the city. Why Galway? Because it is the only show in town in the West of Ireland. The next major settlement is Sligo which is eighty miles away.

Has this strategy worked? No it hasn't. It is in fact dismally unsuccessful.  The 79000 figure includes a huge transient population that has not put down roots in the city. To see this you have look at the populations of the cities residents who were actually born there. Not all of census 2016 reports are out yet but for 2011 it was this:

Limerick 50k 

Waterford 33.5 k

Galway 36.5k

Galway city had been increasing for some time since the beginning of the 20th century but the official boundaries did not reflect the true urban population.This increase would have been rural to urban migration. But since 1970 with the creation of the Regional Colleges the student population along with migrants needed to feed FDI are probably the main drivers. So after almost fifty years of huge state incentives the true "Galwegian" population is only marginally higher than Waterford.  Food for thought I would say!

This is actually positive for Waterford because it shows that Waterford is probably the most resilient city in Ireland. There is no "Tax incentives" like the Shannon Free zone or the similar one created for the IFSC. There has been a consistent denial of a  University unlike Limerick. Galway  has had  the benefit of more favourable tax status for companies wishing to locate there  because it is in the contrived BMW region (created in order to continue begging of the EU). Despite all of this and discounting urban boundary changes Waterford is still largely compares to the other cities proportionally much the same as it always did. 

When you look at the South East you will see the resilience of Waterford is more apparent. The Urban population of the city is still three times that (just short) of  Kilkenny,Wexford, and Clonmel. The population of the Kilkenny and Wexford in census 2016 includes "environs" which is basically the rural hinterland. This is analogous to the Metropolitan district in Waterford County (68000) but doesn't include the environs in South Kilkenny which adds another 15000. 

The "County" of Galway and Cork cover a large geographical area which means they do not suffer from the county jersey mentality of the South East to the same extreme. So they don't have to contend with shenanigans like pretending Ferrybank-Belview (previously called Waterford Environs but changed for no rational reason) is a separate town from Waterford instead of a suburb.  

The problem in Ireland at the moment is that there is no city able to provide a counterweight to Dublin. The Galway experiment has shown poor results when all things are considered, If the South East got its act together and stopped the county jersey stuff (It won't) they would see the potential of the area. But who knows some people are starting to cop on.

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/the-south-east-economic-arc/

https://urbsintacta.wordpress.com/the-south-east-urban-belt/

fuzzy dunlop

lawred2 wrote: »

A population of 53000 would be classed as a town in most European countries.

And what? Would 79000 qualify for some super Alpha Global City with a big hard on? Cities of 210000 barely register either. I love these pop up posters who draw some threshold at Galway.
The Eurostat definition is an urban population greater than 50000 regardless of administrative boundary. That is "URBAN". None of this conceited environs BS.

fuzzy dunlop

dzilla wrote: »

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Two New  Motorways linking Waterford City with Cork City and Limerick City.                                                                                        And New Waterford City University and Waterford City will be  booming economy.

Don't need two motorways.

Motorway to Limerick and join the Dublin Motorway to Cork at Cahir.

That is the thinking of a lot of people and its a good idea! Motorway from Waterford to Limerick and an interchange on the M8 where the Cork, Limerick and Waterford are connected this way. But I believe Leeside "insists" on the standalone M20.

Harry Palmr

The Republic of Cork mentality will always be the Republic of Cork mentality.