Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

AugustusMinimus

As everyone else has said, you will be nowhere near the new road.

Given updates to the surrounding roads, you will likely see a drop in traffic on the Rochestown road with more people using the new Carrs Hill interchange instead of accessing the N28 at the Rochestown Road junction as at present.

cormoleary

What about buying a house in Rochestown Rise? Motorway looks a bit close to it?

marno21

cormoleary wrote: »

What about buying a house in Rochestown Rise? Motorway looks a bit close to it?

About a 2 minute drive to M28/R610 junction. Would be a very valuable investment for that reason

Ludo

marno21 wrote: »

About a 2 minute drive to M28/R610 junction. Would be a very valuable investment for that reason

Wouldn't fancy that myself. A bit too close to a motorway with lots of truck traffic to a port for comfort. It is already close to good roads...a bigger road only to Carrigaline/Ringaskiddy will not make property price rise there. Noise from the road will potentially have the opposite effect.

And I believe you still won't have close-by access to the road going south direction so not much benefit time-wise if you happen to commute that direction from there. Open to correction about that one though...not 100% sure.

marno21

Ludo wrote: »

Wouldn't fancy that myself. A bit too close to a motorway with lots of truck traffic to a port for comfort. It is already close to good roads...a bigger road only to Carrigaline/Ringaskiddy will not make property price rise there. Noise from the road will potentially have the opposite effect.

And I believe you still won't have close-by access to the road going south direction so not much benefit time-wise if you happen to commute that direction from there. Open to correction about that one though...not 100% sure.

If exhausts from internal combustion engines are an issue for you then there are lovely villages on the Beara peninsula that are suited to your needs. The N28 has been beside Rochestown Rise since 1995 and the sky hasn't fallen has it? By the time the M28 opens there will have been further advances in emissions reduction, the M28 will have the latest in low noise road surface and the speed limit there will be 60km/h.

There won't be southbound access there but you do have access to the N40, which carries a lot more traffic than the N28. I would rather live there than somewhere where a long commute would be more detrimental to health than a moderately busy road

Ludo

marno21 wrote: »

If exhausts from internal combustion engines are an issue for you then there are lovely villages on the Beara peninsula that are suited to your needs. The N28 has been beside Rochestown Rise since 1995 and the sky hasn't fallen has it? By the time the M28 opens there will have been further advances in emissions reduction, the M28 will have the latest in low noise road surface and the speed limit there will be 60km/h.

Overreact much? I know you don't like to hear opinions which may disagree with your narrow view of the world and shove them off into other threads, but I simply stated my opinion that it is a bit too close to the road for comfort. There are better options in the area which have all the benefits of the road without being on top of it and having to listen to it.

cc

Shaque attack wrote: »

Hi All,

I've not been long in cork but have just gone sale agreed on a house on the Rochestown rd... near the topaz.

Just wondering would any of you reconsider purchasing? Am wondering if there's going to be increased noise pollution, decrease in house value etc.

Cheers,

You're just next to the N40 so, one of the busiest roads in the country, people who oppose the M28 seem to forget this and seem to think they live out in west cork somewhere

marno21

Ludo wrote: »

Overreact much? I know you don't like to hear opinions which may disagree with your narrow view of the world and shove them off into other threads, but I simply stated my opinion that it is a bit too close to the road for comfort. There are better options in the area which have all the benefits of the road without being on top of it and having to listen to it.

I don't see how this is an over-reaction. The road has been there since the 90s and I would think that the price of houses in the area has increased since then?

Sure there are but many of those are also further from the road that people use to get everywhere and result in longer journey times, so there is a trade off.

I live on a busy road and so I know what it's like. You get used to the traffic very quickly. Same as half of Cork living under the flight path of Cork Airport, they tune out after a while.

snotboogie

Saw this earlier

Peregrine

I lived 2 mins from the M50 for years.

I really don't see the problem.

AugustusMinimus

snotboogie wrote: »

Saw this earlier

Interesting to see how good their supporters are once they are asked for money. They’ll need 200 Euro’s from each of their claimed 10,000 supporters.

AugustusMinimus

Going to be a lot of good value in Rochestown Rise due to mass hysteria generated by the Steering Group. Emissions likely to reduce in the area due to less congestion.

This is coming from someone who will be close to the new road.

kub

snotboogie wrote: »

Saw this earlier

Is it just me, or does anyone else find the way the words are written on that poster as arrogant?

AugustusMinimus

kub wrote: »

Is it just me, or does anyone else find the way the words are written on that poster as arrogant?

I’m guessing you haven’t seen their Facebook page.

Seemingly the road would “destroy Rochestown and Douglas” on a previous poster. I think one of them may have had a mushroom cloud.

Ludo

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Going to be a lot of good value in Rochestown Rise due to mass hysteria generated by the Steering Group. Emissions likely to reduce in the area due to less congestion.

This is coming from someone who will be close to the new road.

Well, we will agree to disagree. I live in the area also and am happy with the final outcome of the planning decision. I still wouldn't want to live THAT close to the road...and by that, I mean the existing one or the newer even closer version.

That is not hysteria of any kind. If I am purchasing a house, I am not going to buy one where I can hear a motorway all day and night when there are plenty of other places to live in the area to get all the benefits without that noise. Maybe that's just me though.

Limerick74

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Saw this earlier

Interesting to see how good their supporters are once they are asked for money. They’ll need 200 Euro’s from each of their claimed 10,000 supporters.

Only €20 each?

MrDerp

"Legal Challenge" - and well they might use inverted commas.

The avenue open to them is a Judicial Review, but they must first have grounds for same.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/planning_and_development_in_ireland/judicial_review_in_planning_and_environmental_matters.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/analysis/karen-walshjudicial-review-is-a-long-and-tricky-road-391605.html

Essentially, unless they can demonstrate that a part of the statutory process was not followed, or there was a flagrant breach of common sense in awarding planning. I can't think of a good example here other than, perhaps, a skyscraper on a flight path next to an airport.

Given how long this took to get through ABP, and the careful hearing process, I'm hopeful that they have been doing extreme due diligence against the statutory process to ensure a judge refuses grounds to a Judicial Review.

AugustusMinimus

MrDerp wrote: »

"Legal Challenge" - and well they might use inverted commas.

The avenue open to them is a Judicial Review, but they must first have grounds for same.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/planning_and_development_in_ireland/judicial_review_in_planning_and_environmental_matters.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/analysis/karen-walshjudicial-review-is-a-long-and-tricky-road-391605.html

Essentially, unless they can demonstrate that a part of the statutory process was not followed, or there was a flagrant breach of common sense in awarding planning. I can't think of a good example here other than, perhaps, a skyscraper on a flight path next to an airport.

Given how long this took to get through ABP, and the careful hearing process, I'm hopeful that they have been doing extreme due diligence against the statutory process to ensure a judge refuses grounds to a Judicial Review.

Would it still cost €200k to have a Judge refuse a hearing?

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Would it still cost €200k to have a Judge refuse a hearing?

Yes, the 200k (variable cost) is just the cost of legal fees

Carawaystick

How does the Bord stand over the project splitting by not making sustainable transport an integral part of the project?

the ejits in abp wrote:

would provide opportunities to develop sustainable transport projects
(including walking, cycling and public transport) in the general vicinity

Sustainable travel should have been a condition of the project, Carrigaline is one of the most car dependent towns in Ireland, building a motorway there and not providing for alternatives is a major mistake in this day and age.

marno21

Carawaystick wrote: »

How does the Bord stand over the project splitting by not making sustainable transport an integral part of the project?

the ejits in abp wrote:

would provide opportunities to develop sustainable transport projects
(including walking, cycling and public transport) in the general vicinity

Sustainable travel should have been a condition of the project, Carrigaline is one of the most car dependent towns in Ireland, building a motorway there and not providing for alternatives is a major mistake in this day and age.

The volume of people cycling between the two destinations can be accomodated on the old N28 which will be quieter now.

This is a motorway leading to the orbital road of Cork, which will be a motorway. It should have zero pedestrians or cyclists on it. I don't see any provision for these on the M50 or M1 (which have their own access issues for peds/cyclists due to the Westlink and the Broadmeadow bridge).

Cyclist facilities is an issue for Cork County Council and the NTA.

AugustusMinimus

It really wouldn’t take much effort to put cycle lanes on the old N28 now. That and I’d also have a path for pedestrians the entire way from Carrigaline to Douglas. Why not I guess.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It really wouldn’t take much effort to put cycle lanes on the old N28 now. That and I’d also have a path for pedestrians the entire way from Carrigaline to Douglas. Why not I guess.

Cycling can't get more dangerous than it presently is along that corridor anyway. Imagine how dangerous it would be to cycle over Carrs Hill with the narrow road and the traffic volume.

marno21

The M28 Steering Group are holding a meeting next Thursday night where they will unveil a legal challenge to the M28 scheme which they say legally "doesn't have a leg to stand on except for political urgency" and that the M28 won't stand up in court. (Except for the fact that the M28 is in compliance with all development and planning policy in the Cork area). They refuse to say what this challenge is except that it will be revealed on Thursday next. The only indication of wrongdoing is an apparent conspiracy by An Bord Pleanala to make the decision on this scheme during the summer months to inconvenience people. (Of course, if they hadn't flooded ABP with NIMBY spam ABP would have had their decision made a long time ago).

This is turning into complete and utter "I don't want a motorway in my lovely leafy suburb" and "I don't want the destruction of the valley yet the valley had to be destroyed to facilitate the sprawl in which I live". This needs to be sorted quickly so that these self centered individuals don't hold up much needed development in the Cork area.

AugustusMinimus

The posts in that group by the moderator are nothing short of farcical.

People are questioning their motives on the group and in reality, they have no answers.

One woman said that everyone in Passsge West is against the motorway. Complete nonsense.

Another said the same for Carrigaline. The vast vast majority of people in Carrigaline support this road.

Worst of all a person said s the pharma companies are against the new road. Utter nonsense.

marno21

Here's what the posts say by representatives of the M28 Steering Group

1. The M28 was designed for trucks and lorries
2. The N28 is being hijacked by the Government
3. 4000 trucks a day will block the M28
4. The N28 is being stolen from residents to support the Port of Cork
5. This is a grand attempt to dupe people in Cork into stealing their road and the people of Cork are waking up to this
6. The road has been designed poorly and is "contra regulation"
7. Leo Varadkar found an alternative route for Metrolink and he hasn't done so here
8. The M28 is highly dangerous and has been confirmed by a number of professionals

Regarding the above:

1. The M28 is designed to the same standards as the M6, M7, M8, M9, M11, M18, M21, N25 and N40
2. I don't know what to say to this - it clearly isn't.
3. The motorway will have sufficient capacity to deal with these - UNLIKE the current road
4. It isn't - it was originally designed to upgrade the N28 and serve Ringaskiddy, Shanbally, Carrigaline, Cork Harbour, Passage, Crosshaven and Rochestown/Douglas
5. I have seen no evidence of this - most people are happy the area is finally getting investment
6. It hasn't - it's designed to all required standards
7. He didn't - they simply moved the location for tunnel boring machine launches - not comparable here
8. No further details - hard to make sense of

There were other comments up earlier but these appear to have been deleted and users blocked from discussing the points. Anyone who raises a valid point or asks a valid question is told to come to the meeting. The comments about ABP leading a conspiracy to make the decision during the summer as it is inconvenient for people has also been removed.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The posts in that group by the moderator are nothing short of farcical.

People are questioning their motives on the group and in reality, they have no answers.

One woman said that everyone in Passsge West is against the motorway. Complete nonsense.

Another said the same for Carrigaline. The vast vast majority of people in Carrigaline support this road.

Worst of all a person said s the pharma companies are against the new road. Utter nonsense.

Well, it's as simple as this. If the Examiner are allowed to publish an article saying they are against the project (they were looking for a slight rerouting at Ringaskiddy back to the 2008 routing which would take the motorway further away from the village), which they aren't, they are universally in favour of it, it's no surprise that this fake news is spreading around

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/united-opposition-to-180m-m28-route-462507.html

AugustusMinimus

Steering Group now claiming that the new road will lead to thousands of articulated lorries going down Maryborough Hill each day.

It’s like fairytale stuff from them. Sling enough **** at a wall and eventually some will stick. In fairness, there are plenty of people questioning their rubbish on there.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Steering Group now claiming that the new road will lead to thousands of articulated lorries going down Maryborough Hill each day.

It’s like fairytale stuff from them. Sling enough **** at a wall and eventually some will stick. In fairness, there are plenty of people questioning their rubbish on there.

This is funny because that's an argument in favour of the road - no motorway will mean substantial rat running traffic through Douglas and Rochestown. You can't call the M28 a scar on the land either because it was built in 1995 (the part we're concerned with) and has blended in with the land now.

A quick look at the state the countries on either side of us are in will tell you exactly the type of problems that happen when nonsense gets told repeatedly until people start believing it.

Aontachtoir

Thousands of articulated lorries going down Maryborough Hill? They mean the N28 and not the road down past the golf club and the hotel, right?

The group campaigning against the incinerator has been granted leave for a judicial appeal. Not sure how good a sign that is for the M28.

AugustusMinimus

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Thousands of articulated lorries going down Maryborough Hill? They mean the N28 and not the road down past the golf club and the hotel, right?

The group campaigning against the incinerator has been granted leave for a judicial appeal. Not sure how good a sign that is for the M28.

No they do not. They believe that Bloomfield will be so clogged that truckers will instead go down Maryborough Hill.

First of all they would go down the old Carrigaline Road. Secondly, it’s a load of ****ing bull****.

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Thousands of articulated lorries going down Maryborough Hill? They mean the N28 and not the road down past the golf club and the hotel, right?

The group campaigning against the incinerator has been granted leave for a judicial appeal. Not sure how good a sign that is for the M28.

1. Incinerator was approved by ABP against the recommendation of their own inspector, that's a big reason for challenge

2. CHASE successfully raised funding for this judicial review

3. The incinerator is almost universally disliked and has a much stronger anti following than a pro, contrasted with the M28.

The M28 objectors are simply a quasi-elitist minority driven by generic NIMBYism in Rochestown who are at the stage now where they are contradicting their own arguments. It's more of a crusade against the establishment vs the people that has a motorway caught up in it. The only argument they seem to be pushing is "noise pollution", which is going to be there M28 or no N28. If these people have such a problem with this road corridor they should have blocked it when it was built in the 90s. Nowadays it's trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted.

It's a whole different ballgame to the incinerator. Take a look at the Metrolink thread to see a similar group in Ranelagh campaigning on similar generic NIMBYist reasons (trams could derail into our gardens etc). "I've had my fun and that's all that matters"

Seeing the "Steering Group" suggesting that a senior Cabinet member should interfere in this and reroute it because they don't want a blue line running through Rochestown instead of a green line..

Aontachtoir

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

No they do not.  They believe that Bloomfield will be so clogged that truckers will instead go down Maryborough Hill.  

Oh for heaven's sake.

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

Seeing the "Steering Group" suggesting that a senior Cabinet member should interfere in this and reroute it because they don't want a blue line running through Rochestown instead of a green line..

When does the window for a judicial appeal close? Here's hoping some kind judge will refuse their appeal and put them out of their misery...

AugustusMinimus

Steering Group have now gone and deleted the vast majority of dissenting posts on the group. Gone from 87 comments down to only 22. Pathetic.

AugustusMinimus

All dissenting posts now being removed.

snotboogie

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

All dissenting posts now being removed.

Reeks of desperation

marno21

Anyone at this affair tonight?

Tweets from Jerry Buttimer and others seem to indicate it was about a judicial review. Best of luck to the anti-development wing of Rochestown who intend on wasting all that money

Meanwhile, Simon Coveney (whilst not attending international affairs) was tweeting today about Cork Chamber and the M28 being positive for Cork. Good to see him not engaging in opportunistic political pandering.

snotboogie

Did they actually get the money? A comment on Buttimer's facebook says Once again ....many thanks Jerry for your unwavering support. We drive on to the High Court in our unending campaign to protect our community.

Kevwoody

snotboogie wrote:

Did they actually get the money? A comment on Buttimer's facebook says Once again ....many thanks Jerry for your unwavering support. We drive on to the High Court in our unending campaign to protect our community.

So they are saying as long as we move it on to someone else's community we're happy.
Planning laws that allow this kind of bull**** are a disgrace.

marno21

M28 Steering Group now have bank details on their FB page fundraising for this legal challenge including pictures of donation buckets at last nights meeting.

Interesting from the photos on the page, you get an insight into the demographic of people leading this crusade and it's even more sickening

Some free advertising riddled with inaccuracies from the local press today also: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/group-opposing-new-cork-motorway-says-there-are-strong-grounds-for-judicial-review-858263.html

Aontachtoir

When does the window close for a judicial review?

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

When does the window close for a judicial review?

8 weeks I believe.

Government want to reduce this to 4 but obviously no use here.

marno21

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/members-of-m28-steering-group-have-only-a-few-days-to-raise-funds-for-judicial-review/

300 people at the meeting last night. 3% of the people supposedly represented by the Steering Group. 97% people either don't agree or don't care.

They plan to raise over 100k for the judicial review. That's €333 per person from all the people there last night, 60% of the cost of a return flight from Cork to Boston. I know which one I'd be choosing.

cantalach

marno21 wrote: »

Some free advertising riddled with inaccuracies from the local press today also: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/group-opposing-new-cork-motorway-says-there-are-strong-grounds-for-judicial-review-858263.html

One of the paragraphs reads:

The steering group represents more than 10,000 residents who will be affected by the motorway and has 45 members, including residents associations and county councillors.

This is just terrible journalism and a sub-editor asleep at the wheel. The group "claims to represent" and no more than that. They sure as Hell don't represent me!

marno21

cantalach wrote: »

One of the paragraphs reads:

The steering group represents more than 10,000 residents who will be affected by the motorway and has 45 members, including residents associations and county councillors.

This is just terrible journalism and a sub-editor asleep at the wheel. The group "claims to represent" and no more than that. They sure as Hell don't represent me!

That's how you report stuff if you're in agreement with the aims of the group though; it's the type of stuff you see on Fox News.

Good to see another pro-development person here. If they manage to win their case on some technicality I can see and hope TII come back in with an IROPI type appeal. TII have already ruled out alternatives in the planning process, An Bord Pleanala have concurred with this and the geography of Cork pretty much puts the argument to bed.

Imagine if Rochestown Tidy Towns got a 100k investment, what it could do for the area for everyone's benefit.

cantalach

marno21 wrote: »

Good to see another pro-development person here.

I'm pro-common sense. As I drove in from Carrigaline the other day along the existing N28, it really struck me what an ugly road it is: a large petrol station, a climbing lane, a cell tower, an underpass, a flyover, another underpass, and lots of traffic. Not exactly Killarney National Park and ideal, I'd have thought, as a route corridor for a motorway. In contrast, the route corridor from Fivemilebridge to Carrigaline through which the Nimbys would prefer the motorway to go is comparatively unspoiled.

Aontachtoir

Why on earth do they keep claiming the road will split communities in two? For goodness' sake. The road does not run through any towns or villages, and will actually join the Carrigaline region more closely to Cork City. And their claims that it's "not about money", when it so very clearly is?

I do try not to take notice, and I'm sure the M28 will be built, but the Steering Group's incessant distortion and dishonesty could give Trump a run for his money. It really ticks me off.

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Why on earth do they keep claiming the road will split communities in two? For goodness' sake. The road does not run through any towns or villages, and will actually join the Carrigaline region more closely to Cork City. And their claims that it's "not about money", when it so very clearly is?

It's a mixture of textbook NIMBYism combined with a crusade and refusal to admit defeat at this stage/

I do try not to take notice, and I'm sure the M28 will be built, but the Steering Group's incessant distortion and dishonesty could give Trump a run for his money. It really ticks me off.

Similar tactics alright when you get to the bottom of it. Pure selfishness when you realise the domino effect caused by the holding up the M28.

_Kaiser_

cantalach wrote: »

One of the paragraphs reads:

The steering group represents more than 10,000 residents who will be affected by the motorway and has 45 members, including residents associations and county councillors.

This is just terrible journalism and a sub-editor asleep at the wheel. The group "claims to represent" and no more than that. They sure as Hell don't represent me!

Same thing on the BreakingNews report - https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/group-opposing-new-cork-motorway-says-there-are-strong-grounds-for-judicial-review-858263.html