Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

Aontachtoir

Golfer50 wrote: »

I would say that Bloomfield is a short sighted solution. Sure it is the line of least resistance now but it is not future proof.
If there was an alternative route for port traffic or hgvs in general, they could be directed to that route and precluded from using the existing n28.
If the present n28 is not dumped on we can return to trying to get something done in terms of mitigation although, based on my experience, I have zero confidence that TII or CoCoCo will protect people adequately from noise etc whether this thing is approved or not

It's not really short-sighted, Golfer. Bloomfield is easily the best option we have right now, and it's the closest and fastest way to hook traffic into the national motorway system. It would be difficult to imagine a more direct route. I'm not sure what you would consider more long-sighted, although it sounds like you've favoured routing the road elsewhere. However, even a large outer orbital connecting Ringaskiddy out to Ballincollig would not efficiently connect Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy and the port to the national motorway network. Bloomfield is the best option, and hopefully going forward an additional outer orbital will also be constructed for maximum future-proofing.

Don't let our sunny economic horizons distract you from the fact that Bloomfield is the best option for the immediate future.

Reputable Rog

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

You would be advocating Ballygarvan??

A new Southern Orbital is needed, the problem is how far do out do you go and do you facilitate a lower harbour crossing to alllow for a complete circle which would require extending the proposed NRR to beyond Midleton.
Expensive and lots of tunnelling would be involved but within the ring you would have effectively the defined parameters for the future growth of Cork.
The M28 is needed though as it's pointless bringing all the port traffic 10 km west to ultimately go 20 Km south.

boardsuser1

Reputable Rog wrote: »

A new Southern Orbital is needed, the problem is how far do out do you go and do you facilitate a lower harbour crossing to alllow for a complete circle which would require extending the proposed NRR to beyond Midleton.
Expensive and lots of tunnelling would be involved but within the ring you would have effectively the defined parameters for the future growth of Cork.
The M28 is needed though as it's pointless bringing all the port traffic 10 km west to ultimately go 20 Km south.

The next 50+ years in Cork infrastructure alone is not only going to be messy but bloody expensive.

I'm trying to get a mental image of what you have just written.

It would be very difficult/expensive but not impossible.

Yes, the best route for the M28 is as proposed.

How far down the line will it take to turn the sod though.

The steering group aren't prepared to lay down anytime soon.

markodaly

Golfer50 wrote: »

I would say that Bloomfield is a short sighted solution. Sure it is the line of least resistance now but it is not future proof.
If there was an alternative route for port traffic or hgvs in general, they could be directed to that route and precluded from using the existing n28.
If the present n28 is not dumped on we can return to trying to get something done in terms of mitigation although, based on my experience, I have zero confidence that TII or CoCoCo will protect people adequately from noise etc whether this thing is approved or not

I am not sure what you mean about it as future proof. If this upgrade does not go head you realise that the existing traffic will still be there in the morning and will get worse regardless. What do you think should be done about this, leaving all other moving parts out of it.

Do you want any upgrade to happen to this road at all?

markodaly

Reputable Rog wrote: »

A new Southern Orbital is needed, the problem is how far do out do you go and do you facilitate a lower harbour crossing to alllow for a complete circle which would require extending the proposed NRR to beyond Midleton.
Expensive and lots of tunnelling would be involved but within the ring you would have effectively the defined parameters for the future growth of Cork.
The M28 is needed though as it's pointless bringing all the port traffic 10 km west to ultimately go 20 Km south.

Southern Orbital? Christ, I think the building the north ring road first should be well before that. This would certainly relieve traffic, especially anything coming from west of Ballincollig going onto Fermoy -> Dublin

To sort commuting traffic you need BRT, Luas and a functioning bus service.

Baldilocks

Given that Dunkettle will be finished before the M28, the 'dumping' of traffic onto an existing problem area, should not be a problem, as traffic flowing from Carrigaline/Ringaskiddy that is heading north and east should be able to flow freely (subject to accidents). As it stands, there are rarely accidents on the section between the N28/N40. They tend to occur coming from the N40 to the N28/rochestown road section, where people are changing multiple lanes (often leaving it to the last minute, and then some!!). This could be easily policed with cameras....

As for the northern ring - badly needed, but we excel as a nation at inhibiting/frustrating progress! (this thread is proof!). The M50 was held-up for years for Carrickmines 'castle' (a decidedly poor fairy fort, that was over a kilometre away (may vincent salafia rot in hell!!)

IMO, we should be looking at tunnelling (where ground conditions allow). Seeing the authorities dig up streets to put in underground dual carriageways in a city to free it over congestion was a real eye opener, while living in Spain. In should be noted that the spanish authorities continued this work through their recession, which makes ours look like a nice day out!!

Golfer50

markodaly wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean about it as future proof.

We've seen how the traffic figures have grown in recent years. Future proof means that the road should be able to cope effectively with numbers when/if it becomes operable.

markodaly wrote: »

Do you want any upgrade to happen to this road at all?

Of course the road from Shannon Park to Carrs Hill needs to be upgraded. I drive it a lot myself. I don't want to see it turned into a motorway with all that entails and adding port traffic of thousands of hgvs to already ridiculous noise levels.

kub

Golfer50 wrote: »

Put up a big sign!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/637/made/en/print

Part 3

Regulatory Signs - Upright

Prohibited vehicles

5. (1) Traffic sign number RUS 046 (“sign RUS 046”) shall, when provided on a public road -

(a) indicate that the driver of a prohibited vehicle shall not proceed beyond the sign, and

(b) consist of a white disc with a red border containing an oblique red bar and, in black, a symbol depicting a vehicle axle and the letter “x” associated with a figure signifying that the total number of axles being specified on the sign is one axle multiplied by the figure displayed.

Traffic is cars as well, so the sign will specifically say ' if you have driven from Ringaskiddy you are forbidden from driving down here ', that sort of thing ?
While that traffic is possibly as proposed by the NIMBY brigade off westwards to Bishopstown, thereby burning more fuel in the process.

It has already been mentioned that the bridges on the N40 over Douglas are current pinch points on traffic going in both directions, as they are only dual lanes.

So if Bloomfield is not ideal, then where is? Because as it is the N40 West of Bloomfield is at capacity as it stands, the only improvement and extra capacity offering is East bound and as previously stated with the Dunkettle project hopefully complete then this will put an end to North bound tunnel queues at rush hours.

boardsuser1

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055673984/712/#post105348485

In the above link, those opposed to the M28 should look at the excellent set of photos uploaded by M17, the user, not the road.

It is as clear as day there are houses adjacent to that motorway also, unless I’m wrong, I don’t recall NIMBYism on the same scale or at all on that project.

And I am not comparing one county to another.

I am comparing one project to another and potential similarities with the Galway example a positive one at that.

Golfer50

kub wrote: »

Traffic is cars as well, so the sign will specifically say ' if you have driven from Ringaskiddy you are forbidden from driving down here ', that sort of thing ?

😀😅
No, nothing like that. Hgvs, axles . . . .

kub wrote: »

Because as it is the N40 West of Bloomfield is at capacity as it stands, the only improvement and extra capacity offering is East bound and as previously stated with the Dunkettle project hopefully complete then this will put an end to North bound tunnel queues at rush hours.

Agreed. Thanks for making the first point. The second one ? . . .I don't understand. Sorry.

marno21

Traffic on the N40 is now at 100k vehicles a day between J6 and J8. That points to a problem that roads cannot solve. We need much improved public transport for commuters, especially low hanging fruit commuters (people commuting to Mahon, Ballincollig, UCC - also along the rail line Little Island etc).

That's easy traffic to remove. When that's removed there will be enough capacity for less easier served traffic, such as traffic going to the Airport area or Ringaskiddy

Lets not forget that trucks from Ringaskiddy will be leaving 24 hours a day. The N40 blockages only happen between 7am and 9am and 4pm - 6:30pm. The volume of traffic on the N40 will not be an issue outside those hours.

markodaly

Golfer50 wrote: »

We've seen how the traffic figures have grown in recent years. Future proof means that the road should be able to cope effectively with numbers when/if it becomes operable.

A Motorway is the highest standard road this state can build.

Of course the road from Shannon Park to Carrs Hill needs to be upgraded. I drive it a lot myself. I don't want to see it turned into a motorway with all that entails and adding port traffic of thousands of hgvs to already ridiculous noise levels.

So, you want the road itself to be upgraded to Carrigaline. At the moment it's just a bog standard 1+1, what type of upgrade do you want? Dual Carriageway, but not motorway. What was that again about future-proofing.

You want roads to be future-proofed, you want the n28 to be upgraded from its current mess but you don't want a motorway. Sorry but those three statements don't make sense.

marno21

Golfer50 wrote: »

We've seen how the traffic figures have grown in recent years. Future proof means that the road should be able to cope effectively with numbers when/if it becomes operable.


Of course the road from Shannon Park to Carrs Hill needs to be upgraded. I drive it a lot myself. I don't want to see it turned into a motorway with all that entails and adding port traffic of thousands of hgvs to already ridiculous noise levels.

Can you explain your issue with a "motorway"? People seem to be getting very scared for building a "motorway" but a "motorway" in 2017 Irish context is a basic dual carriageway with access restrictions.

A "motorway" and "dual carriageway" are the same in Ireland these days. (Type 1 dual carriageway). On both sides, 2x 3.65m lanes, 2.5m hard shoulder & full or compact grade seperated junctions, and a narrow median. An old motorway in Ireland was 2x 3.75m lanes, 3m hard shoulder, fully grade seperated junctions and wide median.

Also, the traffic levels at Carrs Hill-Shannonpark are above the limit for the next lowest standard below motorway (Reduced/Type 2 dual carriageway). The only road standard for an N28 upgrade that would meet TII's project guidelines would be a motorway (or high quality dual carriageway if they wanted to leave tractors and cyclists on it). Due to engineering constraints, the M28 will be a 100km/h motorway.

Reputable Rog

markodaly wrote: »

Southern Orbital? Christ, I think the building the north ring road first should be well before that. This would certainly relieve traffic, especially anything coming from west of Ballincollig going onto Fermoy -> Dublin

To sort commuting traffic you need BRT, Luas and a functioning bus service.

I haven't suggested that the NRR shouldn't be built first. What I am saying is that the N40 is now overcapacity and a new southern orbital will be needed in time.

Golfer50

markodaly wrote: »

A Motorway is the highest standard road this state can build.


So, you want the road itself to be upgraded to Carrigaline. At the moment it's just a bog standard 1+1, what type of upgrade do you want? Dual Carriageway, but not motorway. What was that again about future-proofing.

You want roads to be future-proofed, you want the n28 to be upgraded from its current mess but you don't want a motorway. Sorry but those three statements don't make sense.

I'm aware of what a motorway is but the logic of building a motorway terminating at single lane Bloomfield (where most traffic is to go) onto an N 40 which is already over capacity . . . . .

My idea of future proofing is to not use the tunnel (which is unlikely to ever have increased capacity) and find a different route. More expensive option yes but if you had a blank sheet I don't think anyone would come up with the present/proposed configuration.

The N28 needs to be improved, widened, add overtaking opportunities, maybe a dedicated lane around Shannonpark from Carrigaline southwards . . . but send port traffic another way.

marno21

Golfer50 wrote: »

I'm aware of what a motorway is but the logic of building a motorway terminating at single lane Bloomfield (where most traffic is to go) onto an N 40 which is already over capacity . . . . .

My idea of future proofing is to not use the tunnel (which is unlikely to ever have increased capacity) and find a different route. More expensive option yes but if you had a blank sheet I don't think anyone would come up with the present/proposed configuration.

The N28 needs to be improved, widened, add overtaking opportunities, maybe a dedicated lane around Shannonpark from Carrigaline southwards . . . but send port traffic another way.

N28N -> N40E is only congested at peak morning and evening times, Monday to Friday. Around 25 hours a week. Freight won't be exclusively transported at these times.

There is no issue with congestion on the Bloomfield Interchange during the other 143 hours of the week, in fact it is lying idle

AugustusMinimus

And the only reason that N28 to N40E gets congested is due to traffic from the tunnel backing up. And the Dunkettle Interchange will be completed before the M28 is opened so this is a nonsensical arguement.

boardsuser1

The sooner that motorway is built the better.

https://twitter.com/CorkSafetyAlert/status/933762778472570881

Golfer50

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

The sooner that motorway is built the better.

https://twitter.com/CorkSafetyAlert/status/933762778472570881

Yes indeed . . . and then all that traffic can be stopped on the N40 too :eek:!

Golfer50

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

And the only reason that N28 to N40E gets congested is due to traffic from the tunnel backing up. And the Dunkettle Interchange will be completed before the M28 is opened so this is a nonsensical arguement.

That's not the case - as illustrated on N40 this afternoon.

boardsuser1

Golfer50 wrote: »

Yes indeed . . . and then all that traffic can be stopped on the N40 too :eek:!

The Dunkettle interchange will come into being before the M28.

I would be hugely surprised if the same problems occur then as they do now post construction.

marno21

Golfer50 wrote: »

Yes indeed . . . and then all that traffic can be stopped on the N40 too :eek:!

Would you rather it stopped on the N40 or up along the N28 by Maryborough?

marno21

Golfer50 wrote: »

That's not the case - as illustrated on N40 this afternoon.

What happened this afternoon?

boardsuser1

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

The sooner that motorway is built the better.

https://twitter.com/CorkSafetyAlert/status/933762778472570881

This most likely ^^^^

marno21 wrote: »

What happened this afternoon?

markodaly

Golfer50 wrote: »

I'm aware of what a motorway is but the logic of building a motorway terminating at single lane Bloomfield (where most traffic is to go) onto an N 40 which is already over capacity . . . . .

So your idea for Bloomfield is to do..... nothing. Ok so.

My idea of future proofing is to not use the tunnel (which is unlikely to ever have increased capacity) and find a different route. More expensive option yes but if you had a blank sheet I don't think anyone would come up with the present/proposed configuration.

Nothing wrong per say with the N40, its just as like the M50, too much development and bad planning around. It's packed because of the lack of commuter opportunities besides a car.

The N28 needs to be improved, widened, add overtaking opportunities, maybe a dedicated lane around Shannonpark from Carrigaline southwards . . . but send port traffic another way.

Another way, where exactly? This magic tunnel you were on about? We cant just wish things away.

As regards the n28, what about future proofing? The road is already over capacity and the only upgrade that will suffice current engineering requirements are Motorway standards. You just want to tinker around the edges and wish up some utopian alternative to wish the current problems away.

Golfer50

markodaly wrote: »

So your idea for Bloomfield is to do..... nothing. Ok so..

No, that's the idea that RPS, TII and Cork CoCo have come up with. Not me.

markodaly wrote: »

Nothing wrong per say with the N40, its just as like the M50, too much development and bad planning around. It's packed because of the lack of commuter opportunities besides a car.

So your idea is to land what I think is a bad plan on top of what you admit to be a bad plan? Ok. . . and that makes a good plan? Am I right?

markodaly wrote: »

Another way, where exactly? This magic tunnel you were on about? We cant just wish things away.

I never mentioned a magic tunnel or a new tunnel as a solution.

markodaly wrote: »

The road is already over capacity and the only upgrade that will suffice current engineering requirements are Motorway standards.

The current requirement for a motorway is dictated by the port. What do you mean by "current engineering requirements"?????

For me, the N28 is never going to be the best route for the port motorway and for you it appears to be the only choice. Grand so. Let's see what recommendations the wise people in ABP come up with.

Aontachtoir

Well gents, it looks like Fianna Fáil have decided to bring down the government. If the next election installs Micheál Martin as Taoiseach, after he has publicly criticised the course of the M28, where does that leave us? Can we trust that if the M28 is approved by ABP it will be built by an FF-led government, after their leader has publicly come out against it?

Reputable Rog

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Well gents, it looks like Fianna Fáil have decided to bring down the government. If the next election installs Micheál Martin as Taoiseach, after he has publicly criticised the course of the M28, where does that leave us? Can we trust that if the M28 is approved by ABP it will be built by an FF-led government, after their leader has publicly come out against it?

They don't really have a choice in the matter.

Middle Man

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Well gents, it looks like Fianna Fáil have decided to bring down the government. If the next election installs Micheál Martin as Taoiseach, after he has publicly criticised the course of the M28, where does that leave us? Can we trust that if the M28 is approved by ABP it will be built by an FF-led government, after their leader has publicly come out against it?

This is exactly why we need to consider changing our electoral process to a closed party list system - such is where you just vote for parties, not individual candidates.

Aontachtoir

Reputable Rog wrote: »

They don't really have a choice in the matter.

Can you expand on this? An FF government would not be bound by the capital plan of a prior government. Remember how the Coalition tore FF's Transport 21 capital plan to shreds and cancelled pretty much everything? Granted, we were in the poorhouse at the time, but it seems to me like FF would have every choice in the matter if they win the next election.