Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

boardsuser1

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

I disagree - the slow single lane eastbound brings any string of traffic to a crawl, and this will only get worse with more traffic on it. This morning I was doing around 30kmph coming into Bloomfield because of a line of cars going eastbound, and this was after the morning rush hour.

There doesn't need to be a build up on the N40 for this to take place - though at peak times this will exacerbate it. Even with the Dunkettle works (which some have warned will be an improvement but not the panacea promised) a busy day at Mahon Point, a crash reducing the lane etc etc will make it harder and slower to get off the M28.

What time was this at exactly?

AugustusMinimus

Double Jo?

You mention having the motorway end at Kinsale Roundabout. How would you sort the traffic chaos there and at the top of Forge Hill where there is traffic lights presently?

The traffic sometimes backs up all the way to the airport in the evenings it gets so bad.

Baldilocks

My preferred route is the one that goes west, linking to the airport. It is a more expensive option, but it is one that disrupts fewer people, but crucially is the better option from a traffic point of view. It will alleviate some of the traffic problems on the N28.

How will this work? You will be dumping traffic onto a signalised roundabout.


I have other concerns around this - noise pollution is a significant one for me

The move to electric vehicles will reduce this significantly. In the short term, noise barriers can be installed.


The High Court has recently ruled that “a right to an environment that is consistent with the human dignity and wellbeing of citizens at large is an essential condition for the fulfilment of all human rights”

How is trapping people in traffic consistent with the human dignity.......?? People losing hours going nowhere very fast - increased stress, etc. People have a right to travel to work/school/hospitals, etc.
Where can you show me that the few have a right to impose themselves on the many?? The basis of democracy is that the majority rules.

The speed limit for Bloomfield heading from the N28 to the east is 50kmh, on the curve, and 60kmh for the rest of the junction. Slow driver?? Farm Vehicles - i note that Griffins are moving alot of potatoes at the moment. It is important to note that you were moving - at the KRR, you might not have been.

Golfer 50,
I am very interested in the human environment, the preferred route causes the least amount of harm to it - it results in the least amound of land take, uses the least amount of raw materials to construct it, and will result in the shortest practical distance to travel, thus further reducing the environmental impact during its' lifespan.

Bloomfield West - the merge needs to be extended, and policed. Bloomfield East, we'll find out when the JLT is sorted. I'll meet you and one of us can eat humble pie.

Having lived abroad, and in the pale - I cannot think of anywhere where traffic is dumped from a national route at 100kmh into a housing estate in ~150m, without a junction, traffic lights, etc. And some of those who use definitely deserves a special mention. Another spot for a bit of policing!!

I have no problem accommodating minorities, I voted yes for the 34th. But that doesn't mean that I voted to have heterosexual couples lose out. Likewise the disability act is for inclusion of a group, not the exclusion of the majority.

SeanW

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

My preferred route is the one that goes west, linking to the airport. It is a more expensive option, but it is one that disrupts fewer people, but crucially is the better option from a traffic point of view. It will alleviate some of the traffic problems on the N28.

Umm ... It's vastly more expensive, there are very few journeys that begin at the port and end at the airport. A route via the Airport or Ballinhassig would take a very large number of lorries almost 10km out of their way. This would have knock-on effects on the existing road - it would still be used very heavily as a rat run because it would be 10km shorter. As if all that wasn't bad enough, your solution would cause carnage on the Kinsale Road Junction. I know this because I was in Cork for a year during the worst of the recession, and the amount of traffic coming from the KRR onto the South Ring was absolutely unbelievable. In the off peak. During the recession. That told me all I needed to know about the KR junction. I shudder to think what it's like now. And I cannot put into words how utterly bizarre I consider it that some are seriously suggesting adding the current load of N28 traffic per day to this junction (actually less because of all the rat-running that will occur on the old road but you get the idea).

Upgrading the N28 will cause more traffic problems than it solves. Yes, it will provide a dual carriageway, but I fear this will lead to an "induced demand" situation that will see more traffic use a road that terminates at junctions ill-equipped to handle it.

It will provide a 100kph motorway. A 100kph motorway provides more capacity than a 120kph motorway and many, many times the capacity of a single carriageway with online accesses, towns and at-grade junctions. "Induced Demand" if it were even a risk, is a long term risk. The traffic, not just by most accounts but also EU law, already justifies a motorway today.

There are many examples of road networks that believe adding more lanes will solve problems when in fact they are only exacerbated.

Maybe in California ... there are very few examples of "Induced demand" making traffic worse in Ireland. Every motorway and bypass scheme in the country has succeeded in alleviating traffic problems in towns bypassed and old roads they replaced, the only partial exception being the M50. Even the M50 is only a partial example because Dublin City needed a bypass anyway, there was just bad planning around it that now limits its usefulness as a bypass in peak hours. Other cases include roads that are still a mess because the new road is tolled and so there is toll dodging.

The EIS for this project says "The N40 and northern sections of the N28 are at/close to their practical capacity, the peak flows are at their maximum and the peak periods extend in terms of length of time."

I suspect many of the N40s problems stem from the fact it used to have roundabouts at both ends - the Sarsfield and Bandon RABs were a massive PITA and Dunkettle the same. The Dunkettle mess is being looked at and that will help.

Look what it says about the existing situation heading northbound to Bloomfield:

...

I drive through Bloomfield every day. Traffic slows to a crawl either heading westbound, where there are two lanes, or east where there is only one.

Pretty sure the Kinsale Road Junction is worse.

There are no plans to upgrade Bloomfield. The council want to build a motorway, encourage more traffic onto it, but service it with an interchange that currently can't adequately cope with the demand put upon it by a national road.

And yet, you think the Kinsale Road Roundabout would be better?

feargale

Isambard wrote: »

Whilst I agree the route needs improvement, does it need to be a motorway?

No. They should first upgrade to motorway the B1, i.e. the country's no. 1 boreen from Cork to Limerick.

Aontachtoir

feargale wrote: »

No. They should first upgrade to motorway the B1, i.e. the country's no. 1 boreen from Cork to Limerick.

Why not both at the same time?

feargale

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Why not both at the same time?

Because they have always been able to find and give precedence to something or other over Cork-Limerick, and then say there is no money. The B1 is a joke, connecting the second and third cities of the state, a string of fatal accidents waiting to happen.
First the B1, then Ringaskiddy.

AugustusMinimus

This Bloomfield isn’t capable but Kinsale is, is one of the most bizarre things the “Sterring Group” go on about. Completely flies in the face of facts and reality.

It follows the policy, if you fire enough **** at a wall......

I’d go as far to say that the Kinsale Road Roundabout at present is every bit as bad as Dunkettle. Bloomfield is a job with no traffic issues of note.

kub

feargale wrote: »

Because they have always been able to find and give precedence to something or other over Cork-Limerick, and then say there is no money. The B1 is a joke, connecting the second and third cities of the state, a string of fatal accidents waiting to happen.
First the B1, then Ringaskiddy.

Are you aware that it is EU funds that will be paying for the Ringaskiddy upgrade?

AugustusMinimus

snotboogie wrote: »

"The answer to where the city boundary should be is represented in commuting flows," he said.

"Census commuting patterns indicate that people are predominantly travelling from Douglas, Ballincollig, Glanmire, Midleton, Passage, Rochestown and Carrigaline to workplaces in the harbour, Little Island and the existing city area on a daily basis.

"The city-regional authority should be governing these resident and workplace areas and working on the integration of existing urban landscape.

"In this sense, a focus on better public infrastructure, housing provision and services should be towards the existing city area and the harbour. It does not make sense to be directing the city in a north-west direction as the majority of work opportunities are on the east and south side of the city."

Dr Crowley said the move will separate 'work locations from living locations' and 'will spread public services too thinly' by increasing commuting times and residential sprawl.

"As I presently see it, the infrastructure problems are between existing city areas, the Jack Lynch tunnel, Little Island and the harbour area," he said.

"There is a shortage of houses where there are presently employment opportunities. How does the boundary change have any positive impact on solving these problems?"

The UCC economist said that local interest has dominated the debate so far to the detriment of the region.

"It appears to me that the parochial pump vested interests are at an all-time crisis level in Cork and it is acting as a significant barrier to growth propsects in the city-region. Local interest groups, local politicians and Nimbyismin the east and south of the city and the harbour area have pushed development in a north-west direction which is actually undermining Cork's prospects," he said.

"Facing up to this problem is the ultimate challenge for local government and it is faltering terribly in this regard."

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/UCC-economist-criticises-boundary-proposals-359d6029-94e8-4a9b-8dd1-6fcd852e8bfb-ds

Couldn’t have put it better myself. Cork City is being strangled by parish pump politics and nimbyism. It’s clear what he is referring to in regards the South of the city.

DoubleJoe7

At no point did I propose linking the road to the Kinsale Road Roundabout - in fact, without going back over my posts, I'd wager I never used the word 'Kinsale' in this thread.

Those who've actually read the EIS for this would know that westbound alternatives proposed also included a route terminating at either Sarsfield Road or the Bandon Road interchanges. These can also bring the benefit of linking to the airport.

I'm amazed how anyone can think Bloomfield is an adequate terminus for a motorway.

AugustusMinimus

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

At no point did I propose linking the road to the Kinsale Road Roundabout - in fact, without going back over my posts, I'd wager I never used the word 'Kinsale' in this thread.

Those who've actually read the EIS for this would know that westbound alternatives proposed also included a route terminating at either Sarsfield Road or the Bandon Road interchanges. These can also bring the benefit of linking to the airport.

I'm amazed how anyone can think Bloomfield is an adequate terminus for a motorway.

How on earth can a motorway possibly terminate at the Sarsfield Roundabout? How many houses do you want to demolish?

You come across clueless. Your line about Bloomfield makes no sense. Absolutely none.

marno21

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

At no point did I propose linking the road to the Kinsale Road Roundabout - in fact, without going back over my posts, I'd wager I never used the word 'Kinsale' in this thread.

Those who've actually read the EIS for this would know that westbound alternatives proposed also included a route terminating at either Sarsfield Road or the Bandon Road interchanges. These can also bring the benefit of linking to the airport.

I'm amazed how anyone can think Bloomfield is an adequate terminus for a motorway.

N28/N25, now N40/N25, or Bloomfield is a trumpet interchange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumpet_interchange

"Trumpet interchanges have been used where one highway terminates at another highway."

tipperary

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

What time was this at exactly?

My tuppence on the delays heading east on the N40 from N28 at Bloomfield, current delays can be caused by one or more of:
1) westbound traffic building up due to RTA etc
2) eastbound traffic on N40 delaying access from Bloomfiled
3) delays on the loop road at Bloomfield, with no delays on N40

All three can currently occur depending on timing. The problem is that the N28 will attract the additional port traffic once the port moves to Ringaskiddy, but no increase in capacity at this junction. This is recognised in the EIS which shows queuing worse than present at some times.

That said, overall this is the best route, even if Bloomfield will still need to be upgraded. Seems a shame though not to upgrade Bloomfield now though with EU funding available.

Baldilocks

UNBELIEVEABLE!!
You don't want the M28 to come through the mulcon valley, for a number of reasons, but among them you cite a right to an environment that is consistent with the human dignity and wellbeing of citizens at large is an essential condition for the fulfilment of all human rights”,
but you're happy to put it through an even more densely populated area??!!!

And onto 2 junctions that have only recently been fixed, one of which could be argued is struggling at peak times.

And you want to approx. triple the length (and thus the cost) to do it!!

If we had that kind of money to blow, tunnelling is the way forward.

marno21

The M28 at present is expected to cost €160m. If we were to cost that out to provide a similar standard of solution via a route further west, we could CPO all the objectors properties along with all of Newlyn Vale and that would stamp out the NIMBYism fairly fast.

marno21

tipperary wrote: »

My tuppence on the delays heading east on the N40 from N28 at Bloomfield, current delays can be caused by one or more of:
1) westbound traffic building up due to RTA etc
2) eastbound traffic on N40 delaying access from Bloomfiled
3) delays on the loop road at Bloomfield, with no delays on N40

All three can currently occur depending on timing. The problem is that the N28 will attract the additional port traffic once the port moves to Ringaskiddy, but no increase in capacity at this junction. This is recognised in the EIS which shows queuing worse than present at some times.

That said, overall this is the best route, even if Bloomfield will still need to be upgraded. Seems a shame though not to upgrade Bloomfield now though with EU funding available.

The primary point here, and the Taliban and co don't seem to get this.

Bloomfield and the N40 are blocked between 7am and 9am and 4:30pm and 6:30pm Monday-Friday. That's 20 hours a week out of 168. Port traffic will not be exclusively using the road at these times. The motorway will provide safe route for the traffic at all times, especially outside these hours. Danger doesn't go away outside these hours and the M28 will provide a 24/7 solution for all traffic.

Bloomfield West is being upgraded and this will help especially with R610 traffic merging. Bloomfield East remains 1 single lane via loop but this is much better than traffic lights or a roundabout. It's the fastest solution to minimise delays with this volume of traffic.

marno21

Cork Airport currently has 0 scheduled cargo flights. Connecting the Port to the Airport would be of no benefit, especially given that there is no scope for cargo expansion because large cargo jets (747, 767, 777, A330) freighters cannot take off at Cork Airport. This leaves smaller cargo jets, usually for parcels etc, which would not benefit a connection to a Port. Also, most freight for the south routes via Shannon. This will continue.

Long term a link between Shannonpark or Carrs Hill and the Airport would be beneficial, but this would be a lower standard road in conjunction with the M28. The long term goal here would be to remove traffic from the restricted section of N40 between the Douglas exits and Bloomfield Interchange.

Rooy

Just out of interest ,is there any analysis of which % direction existing port traffic goes ? - i.e. East towards Midleton , North towards Dublin , City Centre , North Ring Road , Tunnel and West , Tunnel and South ?

DoubleJoe7

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

How on earth can a motorway possibly terminate at the Sarsfield Roundabout? How many houses do you want to demolish?

You come across clueless. Your line about Bloomfield makes no sense. Absolutely none.

Laughable. I come in here to see a number of posts accusing me of wanting something i never said once and I'm the one who comes across clueless?

Go away and read what I posted and the EIS while you're at it.

boardsuser1

"SHOCKING" :rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/175111606272101/photos/pcb.383388812111045/383388555444404/?type=3&theater

Kevwoody

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

Laughable. I come in here to see a number of posts accusing me of wanting something i never said once and I'm the one who comes across clueless?

Go away and read what I posted and the EIS while you're at it.

Ah come on, forget about what you may or may not have said about Bloomfield.
Once you suggested the Bandon Road Interchange as an alternative, you've lost any ounce of credibility you might have had.

AugustusMinimus

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

How on earth can a motorway possibly terminate at the Sarsfield Roundabout? How many houses do you want to demolish?

You come across clueless. Your line about Bloomfield makes no sense. Absolutely none.

Laughable. I come in here to see a number of posts accusing me of wanting something i never said once and I'm the one who comes across clueless?

Go away and read what I posted and the EIS while you're at it.

Explain how the motorway could terminate at the Sarsfields Road Roundabout.

marno21

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

Laughable. I come in here to see a number of posts accusing me of wanting something i never said once and I'm the one who comes across clueless?

Go away and read what I posted and the EIS while you're at it.

There is no silver bullet here. Bloomfield is the best solution out of what we have. There is no "ideal" or "perfect" solution, we have to do the best we can under the circumstances and that's Bloomfield

Please suggest a workable alternative rather than giving out

TheChizler

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

"SHOCKING" :rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/175111606272101/photos/pcb.383388812111045/383388555444404/?type=3&theater

Didn't think adding the extra lanes would require rotating all the houses by 90 degrees...

boardsuser1

TheChizler wrote: »

Didn't require adding the extra lanes would require rotating all the houses by 90 degrees...

They have this link in the comments section forgetting what the majority of them drive themselves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/traffic-fumes-walking-benefits-3733273-Dec2017/

If every piece of infrastructure that was built in the last 30 years was stopped by the likes of those NIMBY's the country would be alot worse than what it currently is.

marno21

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

"SHOCKING" :rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/175111606272101/photos/pcb.383388812111045/383388555444404/?type=3&theater

Sad ****s. That's all they are now at this stage. Shameless

road_high

The N/M28 is yet another Irish example of when the crazies take over...we have had it with Corrib Gas, pylons in the recent past.

Baldilocks

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

Laughable. I come in here to see a number of posts accusing me of wanting something i never said once and I'm the one who comes across clueless?

Go away and read what I posted and the EIS while you're at it.

Really???
You were the one who referenced the Sarsfield road/Bandon rd options.
But when asked about the impact on the cost, environment, housing in that area, you have refused to deal with it.
You're clearly not happy with the current proposed route, but you're not putting forward a decent argument for another route. More a case of any route but the Mulcon Valley, aka Not In My Back Yard!!

SeanW

DoubleJoe7 wrote: »

At no point did I propose linking the road to the Kinsale Road Roundabout - in fact, without going back over my posts, I'd wager I never used the word 'Kinsale' in this thread.

Most of the objectors want the route rerouted to the KRR. I assumed you did too because it was the closest thing to making any sense, precious little there is such a thing in these objections. Because as moronic a suggestion as sending all that traffic to the KRR was, the below are worse.

Those who've actually read the EIS for this would know that westbound alternatives proposed also included a route terminating at either Sarsfield Road or the Bandon Road interchanges. These can also bring the benefit of linking to the airport.

1) How much traffic is there between Ringaskiddy and the Airport? I've asked this before.
2) Why do you want to force all of that traffic so far out of its way? KRR would involve a 10km forced detour for all N/M28 traffic, but the Bandon Road junction? Forget 10 kilometres, this is more like 10 miles. I.E. useless.
3) How would you build a Motorway interchange at either Bandon or Sarsfield road junctions? remember, the EU is demanding controlled-access highway the entire route from the North towards Ringaskiddy. That means that even if you bring a Motorway to any of the junctions (Kinsale, Bandon, Sarsfield or somewhere else, there must also be uninterrupted Motorway-to-Motorway transition between the M28 and the evidently-to-be-upgraded N/M40. A roundabout can be included in this, but it too would have to be Motorway regulated like Rathmorissey in Galway or like what the M50/M1/R139 used to be in Dublin.
4) As if all that wasn't bad enough, any junction West of the Douglas flyover would cause chaos there, because the Douglas flyover is basically a 2+2 that would be very difficult to upgrade to something like 3+3 with hard shoulders, which would be required for any West of the current junction interchange.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXX1fHy8V-A

I'm amazed how anyone can think Bloomfield is an adequate terminus for a motorway.

The fundamental design of the current N28/N40 interchange is sound - the trumpet interchange is used widely throughout the world to do exactly what is required here in a wide variety of settings. It would be way easier to fix any local problem at the current junction than to try to retrofit any other junction anywhere on the SRR to do the same thing. It is precisely the type of interchange that is ideally suited to a Motorway ending at another Motorway.