Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That headline is a bit misleading so. Have they said how much they’ve raised? How can they apply without the necessary cash?

Well short according to that article

They must think that movement will encourage more donations

I don't think O'Connell Clarke plan on doing this pro bono

kub

This is getting interesting.

Aontachtoir

Well, here we go, I guess. Let's see what the High Court says.

AugustusMinimus

Is the €200k for expected legal fees or is it a bond which must be provided to allow the appeal to go ahead?

If it’s legal fees, what Solicitor would take the case without likelihood of getting paid?

Leonard Hofstadter

It says in the Examiner article that 'many more donations will be required to meet the full cost of the action' (thankfully), so make of that what ye will in relation to how much of the €200,000 they've raised.

Aontachtoir

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Is the €200k for expected legal fees or is it a bond which must be provided to allow the appeal to go ahead?

If it’s legal fees, what Solicitor would take the case without likelihood of getting paid?

This is the key question. Is what they have right now enough to successfully begin the judicial review and hold up vital infrastructure, even if they later run out of cash? Or are they unable to launch the torpedo until they have the full €200k?

Cork Trucker

Please tell me that the court will not consider hearing this case on a 'hearing now, payment later' basis?

The clock is ticking and they know the game must be up.

Eoin English from the Examiner has covered some of their activities but doesn't always put his name to them, I did engage with him on twitter in recent weeks when he said it wasn't he who wrote the RPH article.

Cork Trucker

Update:

I was just in contact today with a reporter from the Irish Examiner.

the phone call was about something completely different but the M28 conversation came into it and we expressed our opinions on the whole issue, he told me what he thinks but can't publicly divulge it as he must be seen to be impartial.

Anyhow, the interesting thing about all of this is that the steering group must raise the full amount of required cash in advance or there is no judicial review.

Basically there is no 'buy now pay later' system in place, this was done away with a number of years ago for obvious reasons.

kub

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Update:

I was just in contact today with a reporter from the Irish Examiner.

the phone call was about something completely different but the M28 conversation came into it and we expressed our opinions on the whole issue, he told me what he thinks but can't publicly divulge it as he must be seen to be impartial.

Anyhow, the interesting thing about all of this is that the steering group must raise the full amount of required cash in advance or there is no judicial review.

Basically there is no 'buy now pay later' system in place, this was done away with a number of years ago for obvious reasons.

Hopefully so this project can move on, let reality dawn on these people and let their bull be shown for what it is.

TheChizler

What's the basis for saying that? Actual court fees are relatively small, vast majority of the cost is solicitor's fees for preparing the application. No laws on when you must pay your representation.

Court fees

Cork Trucker

TheChizler wrote: »

What's the basis for saying that? Actual court fees are relatively small, vast majority of the cost is solicitor's fees for preparing the application. No laws on when you must pay your representation.

Court fees

€200k is far from a small figure.

I'm not too sure how exactly the legal process works, perhaps Marno21 or someone else with better knowledge in the area might be able to answer your question better than I can.

We are talking about the high court, costs aren't small.

I assume the court would look for certain figures to be lodged or indeed TII/ABP to show they have the funds to run this case (getting the project halted) isn't deemed a case of national interest rather a pack of NIMBY's thinking they are above everyone else.

Cork Trucker

kub wrote: »

Hopefully so this project can move on, let reality dawn on these people and let their bull be shown for what it is.

This is pretty much what the reporter said, in fact and I quote him,

'The road being badly needed is an understatement, the sooner they realise it has to happen the better, I seriously doubt they represent 10,000 either based on the attendees at RPH'

TheChizler

Cork Trucker wrote: »

€200k is far from a small figure.

I'm not too sure how exactly the legal process works, perhaps Marno21 or someone else with better knowledge in the area might be able to answer your question better than I can.

We are talking about the high court, costs aren't small.

Never said the entire cost was small, but the part of it due to the court was.

I was asking you to expand on the conversation you had, not posing a question on the process. What reason did they provide for thinking that? It just doesn't sound quite right to me.

If courts required massive fees to be proven or lodged with them prior to a process it would put justice out of the hands of the vast majority of people. In practice you normally do need it as most people don't have the knowledge to prepare these kind of applications themselves. But the court itself shouldn't block access by requiring anything beyond token fees, state bodies would be able to get away with murder otherwise.

kub

TheChizler wrote: »

What's the basis for saying that? Actual court fees are relatively small, vast majority of the cost is solicitor's fees for preparing the application. No laws on when you must pay your representation.

Court fees

You might have a point there, but i hope as i mentioned earlier that this project can push on.


These chancers have employed some environmental lawyers in Dublin and one sentence from that link you provided caught my attention:


8. No fee shall be payable under this Order in connection with proceedings to which section 3 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (No. 20 of 2011) applies.


They have mentioned they will appeal this to Europe if they have to.


It would be handy actually when they are on their way back, that they might pick up the cheque from the EU who will be paying for this upgrade



Obviously they are getting their heads filled by some lawyer who will do nicely out of them and only delaying the inevitable.

TheChizler

I agree they're probably reaching and just trying to delay things. I don't blame solicitors here, they're following client instructions who themselves are entitled to the legal process. The process could be much more efficient though, maybe review applications could be triaged to weed out the more vexatious ones.

kub

Cork Trucker wrote:

This is pretty much what the reporter said, in fact and I quote him,

Cork Trucker wrote:

'The road being badly needed is an understatement, the sooner they realise it has to happen the better, I seriously doubt they represent 10,000 either based on the attendees at RPH'

Well that is a fact that the road is badly needed, to be fair a section of it is as wide as some of the driveways in some of the NIMBYS houses.

That 10,000 figure is absolute lies, if that was the case then they would have that 200 k they need now for the high court, that is if they are not going the environmental route as I suspect they are.

Cork Trucker

kub wrote: »

Well that is a fact that the road is badly needed, to be fair a section of it is as wide as some of the driveways in some of the NIMBYS houses.

That 10,000 figure is absolute lies, if that was the case then they would have that 200 k they need now for the high court, that is if they are not going the environmental route as I suspect they are.

All they are trying to do is drag it out as long as possible in the hope this will go away, which it won't.

By quoting 10,000 is that the entire population of the area as per previous census data?

150-200 is the most they have opposing it I believe personally

Cork Trucker

TheChizler wrote: »

I agree they're probably reaching and just trying to delay things. I don't blame solicitors here, they're following client instructions who themselves are entitled to the legal process. The process could be much more efficient though, maybe review applications could be triaged to weed out the more vexatious ones.

I'd love to see a break down of the legal fees if the court costs are as per your link last night.

Would the defence, in this case TII/ABP/Irish state, be able to insist on funds being lodged to run the case?

The case cost is a mortgage in itself for an apartment in the mount oval area.

Kevwoody

kub wrote:

Well that is a fact that the road is badly needed, to be fair a section of it is as wide as some of the driveways in some of the NIMBYS houses.

Post of the thread!

marno21

Cork Trucker wrote: »

All they are trying to do is drag it out as long as possible in the hope this will go away, which it won't.

By quoting 10,000 is that the entire population of the area as per previous census data?

150-200 is the most they have opposing it I believe personally

Just made a minor edit to that post as it referenced someone - just to be in the safe side

TheChizler

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Would the defence, in this case TII/ABP/Irish state, be able to insist on funds being lodged to run the case?

I doubt it, that would be a fantastic tool for the defence in any case; claim a giant figure as the cost to defend the case that the applicant could never afford, and have the court turn down the application on the basis that they don't have the funds. IANAL but that might potentially be unconstitutional.

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

Just made a minor edit to that post as it referenced someone - just to be in the safe side

I apologise.

No doubt GPDR would come into thinking if they seen it.

Hands up I made a mistake.

highwaymaniac

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I'd love to see a break down of the legal fees if the court costs are as per your link last night.

Would the defence, in this case TII/ABP/Irish state, be able to insist on funds being lodged to run the case?

The case cost is a mortgage in itself for an apartment in the mount oval area.

ABP can't insist on funds being lodged to cover their costs as they won't get a cost award if they are successful in defending the judicial review. The M28 steering group will only have to cover their own costs if their judicial review application fails. See section 4 here https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad%2C42817%2Cen.pdf

The consequence of these new rules is that, in cases where An Bord Pleanála successfully defends the legality of its planning decision it will not get a cost award in its favour. Conversely, where an applicant is successful in challenging the legality of such decisions, it will get a cost award in its favour against An Bord Pleanála.

Aontachtoir

Window for appeal supposedly closes tomorrow. Anyone hear anything / any newsflashes from the Steering Group Facebook page confirming they have pulled the trigger?

AugustusMinimus

Facebook page has been earily quiet the last few days.

Dunno how they can quote 10,000 supporters when only 14 people shared their last post.

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote:

Facebook page has been earily quiet the last few days.

AugustusMinimus wrote:

Dunno how they can quote 10,000 supporters when only 14 people shared their last post.

Just wondering myself, checked the spoofers page and nothing.

Hopefully that saying silence is golden is true.

cjpm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Facebook page has been earily quiet the last few days.

Dunno how they can quote 10,000 supporters when only 14 people shared their last post.

It kept coming up in my Facebook news feed a few weeks ago, looking for donations for the Judicial Review

I clicked "Report Ad" and then clicked the "This is a Scam" option.

Didn't see it since

Aontachtoir

So did the steering group miss the deadline? Has the M28 dodged a judicial review?

AugustusMinimus

Any update?

marno21

The silence is deafening.

Although if they did raise the money, I would've expected a big announcement.

Something like: