Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

Ludo

Kevwoody wrote: »

Yea this is really great for the environment, and the steering group say the motorway will make it worse!

Irrelevant. It is still gonna be a mess in that kind of weather no matter if it is a motorway or not due to its location.

Chris_5339762

Yeah, motorway or not Cork Co Council (or City council now?) won't grit it.

Markcheese

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yeah, motorway or not Cork Co Council (or City council now?) won't grit it.

You're right, Cork Co. Council, aren't responsible for gritting any of the main dual carriageways in Cork (main ones anyway)... Lagan are, well most of them... Its all contracted out by the NRA.. (Or tfi or whatever their name)

Kevwoody

Chris_5339762 wrote:

Yeah, motorway or not Cork Co Council (or City council now?) won't grit it.

None of the motorways are gritted by county council's. They are all gritted by the MMaRC contractors, who as private companies, take absolutely no chances,and have a huge fleet of gritters and ploughs on standby.
If this was the M28, not a chance of it being at a standstill like this.

Wildly Boaring

Kevwoody wrote: »

None of the motorways are gritted by county council's. They are all gritted by the MMaRC contractors, who as private companies, take absolutely no chances,and have a huge fleet of gritters and ploughs on standby.
If this was the M28, not a chance of it being at a standstill like this.

Amen
Though a lot of Cork city roads fall under egislagan in the little island depot. Not sure if carshill is in it.

danny004

Kevwoody wrote: »

None of the motorways are gritted by county council's. They are all gritted by the MMaRC contractors, who as private companies, take absolutely no chances,and have a huge fleet of gritters and ploughs on standby.
If this was the M28, not a chance of it being at a standstill like this.

spot on private companies take absolutely no chances especially ones with public contracts lol. In any event if the steering group win the JR I sense regardless what Coveney et al say there will be a sigh of relief in Government trying to plug the funding overrun hole of circa 1.3 billion for the national children's hospital

kub

Golfer50 wrote: »

So, traffic delayed to and from Carrigaline this morning . . caused by the fallout from overnight snow and freezing conditions. And you want to have a pop at someone because of this?

Nice photo though.

Well if you lot have your way, traffic will always remain on that road and will only get worse as traffic alaways take the short cut rather than a ridiculous diversion out through Ballygarvan as proposed by the NIMBY's.

Cork Trucker

Golfer50 wrote: »

So, traffic delayed to and from Carrigaline this morning . . caused by the fallout from overnight snow and freezing conditions. And you want to have a pop at someone because of this?

Nice photo though.

Ever the pessimist Golfer.

kub wrote: »

Well if you lot have your way, traffic will always remain on that road and will only get worse as traffic alaways take the short cut rather than a ridiculous diversion out through Ballygarvan as proposed by the NIMBY's.

I'm stating it very clearly that in the unlikely event it is to go via the N27 Airport road to Ballygarvan i'll still sail through Broomfield and on down the N28 as will many of my colleagues, getting caught at the KRR is bad now, imagine throwing motorway traffic in there at rush hour.

The judicial review date is almost upon us now, any idea as to when a decision will be issued once it concludes?

Golfer50

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Ever the pessimist Golfer.

There’s little to be optimistic about . . . at present

Cork Trucker wrote: »

i'll still sail through Broomfield and on down the N28 as will many of my colleagues

Would that include ignoring a restriction sign such as RUS 015, 046, 051 or 054?

N28 mustn’t be that bad if you would continue to use it.

Cork Trucker

Golfer50 wrote: »

There’s little to be optimistic about . . . at present



Would that include ignoring a restriction sign such as RUS 015, 046, 051 or 054?

N28 mustn’t be that bad if you would continue to use it.

Plenty to be optimistic about, but i won't fan the flames until after the JR.

As for the weight restrictions, i'd be surprised if it happens, not like it is a narrow back alley we are talking about, and after all take a look at the M17/18 motorway up the west, i don't recall steering group of note up there, a fine road that is as well may i add.

I hate using the N28 in its current format, despise it if anything, but the quickest and most direct route is best, the M28 being exactly that plan to Ringaskiddy.

I wouldn't be prepared to use a route that would end up being caught is massive tailbacks (Airport road & KRR) so direct is the only way.

marno21

The idea that a grade separated single carriageway with a free flow connection to the N40 will be given weight restrictions is laughable

Golfer50

I’ll have to tell the Patrick Street traders the joke.

kub

Golfer50 wrote: »

I’ll have to tell the Patrick Street traders the joke.

A freeflow on Patricks Street, really ? :rolleyes:

Cork Trucker

Golfer50 wrote: »

I’ll have to tell the Patrick Street traders the joke.

You must have an interesting vision for Cork transport based on that comment.

danny004

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/

Leos thinking fingers crossed for the endevours of the M28 Steering at the high court :eek:

marno21

danny004 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/

Leos thinking fingers crossed for the endevours of the M28 Steering at the high court :eek:

There is no major capital allocation for the M28 in 2019. It is not a target.

If TII are asked to cut down on capital expenditure the M28 will be one of the last to be hit. It's an absolute core priority project for them.

danny004

marno21 wrote: »

There is no major capital allocation for the M28 in 2019. It is not a target.

If TII are asked to cut down on capital expenditure the M28 will be one of the last to be hit. It's an absolute core priority project for them.

all due respect and you and I know as much or as little as each other on this so anything is a guess or wishful thinking depending on whichever side of the debate people are on but I suspect everything is a target most probably including any future allocation to everything and anything like when any capital expenditure in any everyday business has to be cut but again who knows . Priorities outside of Dublin are few and far between and a delay because of the steering wouldn't cause Leo ,pascal and simon D too much pain

marno21

danny004 wrote: »

all due respect and you and I know as much or as little as each other on this so anything is a guess or wishful thinking depending on whichever side of the debate people are on but I suspect everything is a target most probably including any future allocation to everything and anything like when any capital expenditure in any everyday business has to be cut but again who knows . Priorities outside of Dublin are few and far between and a delay because of the steering wouldn't cause Leo ,pascal and simon D too much pain

There is attitude amongst some people, this isn't a target at you or anything, that this is a vanity project akin to the Palm Islands in Dubai. This project is a European Core TEN-T route, key part of European, national and local policy, and is a key project to unlocking hundreds of acres of prime city centre development in Cork. It will be advanced as a priority.

The budget in the Department for National Roads (yes, national roads only) for 2019 is approx. €340m. The M28 represents 0.3% of this. There are savings of €30m being sought in the Department. I can't get a figure for total capex in 2019 but total Department funding for 2019 is €2.38bn.

Of course, the €1m allocated for the M28 for this year may get unspent if it's held up in the courts for the year.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

There is attitude amongst some people, this isn't a target at you or anything, that this is a vanity project akin to the Palm Islands in Dubai. This project is a European Core TEN-T route, key part of European, national and local policy, and is a key project to unlocking hundreds of acres of prime city centre development in Cork. It will be advanced as a priority.

The budget in the Department for National Roads (yes, national roads only) for 2019 is approx. €340m. The M28 represents 0.3% of this. There are savings of €30m being sought in the Department. I can't get a figure for total capex in 2019 but total Department funding for 2019 is €2.38bn.

Of course, the €1m allocated for the M28 for this year may get unspent if it's held up in the courts for the year.

That's all true, but the scale of the overruns are staggering. The cost of this thing will be about 3% of the size of our entire government annual expenditure. It's probably going to cut across everything just because it simply HAS to. But as you say, what's been allocated is tiny anyway, which relieves some of the pressure.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That's all true, but the scale of the overruns are staggering. The cost of this thing will be about 3% of the size of our entire government annual expenditure. It's probably going to cut across everything just because it simply HAS to. But as you say, what's been allocated is tiny anyway, which relieves some of the pressure.

I totally agree with you.

The cost overrun would pay for a motorway between Cork and Limerick - which Enda Kenny repeatedly said 4/5 years ago the country could not afford. If the scheme had been put into planning around then it could start now - but apparently we wouldn't have been able to afford that level of capital contribution between 2019 and 2022.

It's best not to let it infuriate you because it'll happen again and again.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

I totally agree with you.

The cost overrun would pay for a motorway between Cork and Limerick - which Enda Kenny repeatedly said 4/5 years ago the country could not afford. If the scheme had been put into planning around then it could start now - but apparently we wouldn't have been able to afford that level of capital contribution between 2019 and 2022.

It's best not to let it infuriate you because it'll happen again and again.

Yep just another timely reminder that infrastructure budgets should be ringfenced outside of political control really.

marno21

M28 hearing in the High Court on Tuesday 26th. Hopefully this charade doesn't go on for much longer

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

M28 hearing in the High Court on Tuesday 26th. Hopefully this charade doesn't go on for much longer

Well, once the High Court hears the case, we just have to wait another few months for the verdict, and then another few months for the Steering Group to appeal to the Court of Appeal, and then a few more months for the Steering Group to appeal the Court of Appeal's decision to the Supreme Court. Or, if we're really lucky, any of these courts will quash ABP's decision and we get to start the whole planning process from the beginning.

Reminder: the application for planning permission for this twelve-kilometre stretch of road was submitted in May 2017. It is now February 2019 and we still do not have planning permission secured.

AugustusMinimus

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Well, once the High Court hears the case, we just have to wait another few months for the verdict, and then another few months for the Steering Group to appeal to the Court of Appeal, and then a few more months for the Steering Group to appeal the Court of Appeal's decision to the Supreme Court. Or, if we're really lucky, any of these courts will quash ABP's decision and we get to start the whole planning process from the beginning.

Reminder: the application for planning permission for this twelve-kilometre stretch of road was submitted in May 2017. It is now February 2019 and we still do not have planning permission secured.

I’ve seen people on boards claim that the Irish planning system is fit for purpose......

A months between appeals is all it should take.

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Well, once the High Court hears the case, we just have to wait another few months for the verdict, and then another few months for the Steering Group to appeal to the Court of Appeal, and then a few more months for the Steering Group to appeal the Court of Appeal's decision to the Supreme Court. Or, if we're really lucky, any of these courts will quash ABP's decision and we get to start the whole planning process from the beginning.

Reminder: the application for planning permission for this twelve-kilometre stretch of road was submitted in May 2017. It is now February 2019 and we still do not have planning permission secured.

Oh I've no doubt that it'll likely drag on either way, but at some stage the money pot will have to run dry.

Cork Trucker

'Judgement Day' is almost upon us. What can we reasonably expect and how soon can it be expected? JR's are not something i know much about.

kub

I have to wonder with the likes of those in the NIMBY Brigade going to the High Court with this, that even if that case goes against them, that they will appeal it to the Supreme Court and then no doubt onto the European Court.


As this road is designated a TEN-T, does that mean that no matter how long it is delayed, will it still be built eventually ?

marno21

kub wrote: »

As this road is designated a TEN-T, does that mean that no matter how long it is delayed, will it still be built eventually ?

Yes.

It's a strategic route in local, national and European policy. Some would have you believe it's a political project designed as some sort of social employment scheme or a conspiracy to devalue houses

kub

marno21 wrote: »

Yes.

It's a strategic route in local, national and European policy. Some would have you believe it's a political project designed as some sort of social employment scheme or a conspiracy to devalue houses

Very well put Marno, so the NIMBY begging bowl has been out for the High Court, if they loose and then pursue a Supreme Court hearing what sort of money would they need to do this, does anyone know ?

kub

Media reports stating this morning that the NIMBY'S represent 10,000 people.

I wonder have any they evidence to prove this ?