Should the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway be built? [project approved]

danny004

Sam Russell wrote: »

The funding really matters if they lose and get costs against them.

then theyll probably just disband as a special interest group. I bet there is not one of the main protagonists in all of this carrying any personal liability for costs awarded against them ,my point is in a way they are to be admired all odds have been beaten to have their day in court and banging on about how much they have raised in crowdfunding or size of crowds in dinner dances blah blah just doesn't matter any more they are on the court steps where they set out to be.
I have it on reasonable authority though they wont be able to twist again if the JR is lost.

AugustusMinimus

danny004 wrote: »

then theyll probably just disband as a special interest group. I bet there is not one of the main protagonists in all of this carrying any personal liability for costs awarded against them ,my point is in a way they are to be admired all odds have been beaten to have their day in court and banging on about how much they have raised in crowdfunding or size of crowds in dinner dances blah blah just doesn't matter any more they are on the court steps where they set out to be.
I have it on reasonable authority though they wont be able to twist again if the JR is lost.

Someone surely will have to be liable if costs are given against them.

marno21

The road that the leader of the "objectors" is rattling on about them ploughing through a suburban area is visible behind him in the shots on the TV. Of course, the N40 beside them and the N28 in the picture is responsible for their houses having such high value in the first place.

There's over 1200 post on this thread a lot of which have been debunking most of their claims.

Markcheese

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Someone surely will have to be liable if costs are given against them.

Quite often, one individual will front action.. If they lose all costs fall on them, if that individual owns no property or hasnt got a large income, then that's that... Yes they could be pursued for bankruptcy but not much point...

MrMusician18

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod:
Can we go easy on the NIMBY name calling. Objectors might be a less pejorative term. Those who are taking judicial challenge to the project are taking a financial risk with their own money, and should be heard. They are within their rights, and deserve to be given respect, whether others agree with them or not.

So less of the NIMBY and more of the Objectors.

I'd argue that respect is earned, not deserved.

It's hard to respect someone when their interests, fundamentally, are selfish.

Cork Trucker

Once this hearing is concluded how long before a decision is taken? A reserved judgement is what will be expected this week, if that's the case will the judge take his time fine combing all the presentations by all sides?

danny004

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I'd argue that respect is earned, not deserved.

It's hard to respect someone when their interests, fundamentally, are selfish.

But isnt that the case for almost everyone ,forgive me for mentioning Cork Trucker but as an example his interests are fundamentally selfish in that a new road will make his life easier at work on a daily basis ,nothing wrong with that ,same for people working in the area but for people who never travel the road most of them couldn't care one way or the other so why is it hard to respect anyone else who believe they are standing up for their interests.
The problem with this thread is its very personal in that you may not like the message ,I may not like the message ,every trick in the book may be used one way or the other to skew the message and argument (for instance I find it hard to see what Raffeen Quarry has to do with Mount Oval )but talking about respect and selfishness etc quite frankly is childish

Cookiemunster

When it comes to representing 10K people, I'll just leave this here from poster DylanG on Skyscrapercity, who has no history with this thread.

DylanG wrote: »

I live in the area. There is no marching band objecting to the motorway up here. As far as I can tell from talking to people, people either don't know about it or don't care. That 10,000 figure is nothing but a lie. A more accurate figure is 1,000 based off Facebook likes but I don't know how devote most of those are. It would be different if the motorway was new, but it's essentially just adding a lane onto an already present three lane national primary road. The new road will likely be quieter due to better road surfaces. As I said months ago, if they spent however much they spent on the appeal (€200,000?) on mature trees for the grass areas at the back of Lissadell, Mount Oval, Maryborough Ridge and Broadale, they would have been much smarter. That video just highlights how open a lot of the area around the road is. They're likely going to lose and I assume will have to cover all of the costs then so a further appeal may not even be financially possible. Their fundraising events didn't seem to get a whole lot of support so I'm not sure how they are funding this. The video in that link really shows how ridiculous the arguments against the motorway are compared to what the engineers were saying

danny004

Cookiemunster wrote: »

When it comes to representing 10K people, I'll just leave this here from poster DylanG on Skyscrapercity, who has no history with this thread.

I agree with most of that ,there wasn't huge fundraisers or anything ,their social media presence for the most part is non existent apart from sporadic posts ,fundraising events you could count on one hand but ultimately it must have been funded from somewhere.
I also dont think its as clear cut as they will lose. A legal professional working on this case that I know feels they will probably win because ABP ignored EU directives but then it will go back to ABP to consider these directives who will likely reissue the planning again but its all guess work.

kub

Cookiemunster wrote: »

When it comes to representing 10K people, I'll just leave this here from poster DylanG on Skyscrapercity, who has no history with this thread.

DylanG wrote: »

I live in the area. There is no marching band objecting to the motorway up here. As far as I can tell from talking to people, people either don't know about it or don't care. That 10,000 figure is nothing but a lie. A more accurate figure is 1,000 based off Facebook likes but I don't know how devote most of those are. It would be different if the motorway was new, but it's essentially just adding a lane onto an already present three lane national primary road. The new road will likely be quieter due to better road surfaces. As I said months ago, if they spent however much they spent on the appeal (€200,000?) on mature trees for the grass areas at the back of Lissadell, Mount Oval, Maryborough Ridge and Broadale, they would have been much smarter. That video just highlights how open a lot of the area around the road is. They're likely going to lose and I assume will have to cover all of the costs then so a further appeal may not even be financially possible. Their fundraising events didn't seem to get a whole lot of support so I'm not sure how they are funding this. The video in that link really shows how ridiculous the arguments against the motorway are compared to what the engineers were saying

I live in the area and I live a lot closer to the N28 as the gentleman who is the chairman of this objecting group.

I fully support the necessary upgrade of the road, I use the road a few times a day.

From the get go, all they have done have lied about the M28.
10,000 supporters is more lies.
I know a woman who was dragged by a friend of hers to their last fundraiser in the Rochestown Park Hotel.
This woman knows some of the staff at the hotel and when she wondered how come there were not many at it, the staff member told her that they had booked originally for a huge number.
The next call was less, then less again and again.
She estimated that at most there were 200 people in attendance

So please take it from me, firstly we are not all snobs up that way and secondly these objectors do not have as much support at all in this area as they claim to have.
They lied from the start and dramatized the entire thing, that does not gather much support especially from those of us who have a bit of tact and can see through it.

Just a shame this project is being delayed.

Cork Trucker

danny004 wrote: »

forgive me for mentioning Cork Trucker but as an example his interests are fundamentally selfish in that a new road will make his life easier at work on a daily basis

I'd be lying if i didn't say this was true from a professional perspective, but i don't live in my truck, i also drive the road in a private capacity, albeit i try to avoid it when i can.

Cork Trucker

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/challenge-to-proposed-220m-cork-to-ringaskiddy-motorway-gets-underway-at-high-court-907319.html

Today, Mr Justice Michael McGrath heard submissions from counsel for the M28 Steering Group, an umbrella organisation of residents' associations representing some of the households living in areas close to the route of the proposed motorway.

The opening submissions largely focussed on the alleged impact the proposed motorway would have on the Raffeen Quarry, where objectors have said rare habitats would be disrupted by the works.

Those opposed to the proposal have concerns about the proximity the motorway would have to homes in the Rochestown, Maryborough, Douglas, and Mount Oval suburbs of the city.

Residents who object to the scheme say the motorway will cause more pollution and noise, and will have a significant detrimental impact on the amenity of their homes.

Typical 'objectors'

Cork Trucker

The following has been posted on the Douglas for M28 Facebook page by an individual who is a member of it purely to comment and 'spy' i believe. While i won't mention his name here, he is an architect and the moderator of the M28 Steering Group Facebook page to the best of my knowledge.

just saw the news reel , didnt realize that they were going that close to peoples homes ...pretty disgraceful

Said news reel contained within the attached article

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/0225/1032621-n28/?fbclid=IwAR38dKzSzTEqQ4kipaiI3wc9zqcz_NYO6-67ir9KVkt_o1UNWYEoMejgYto

Sam Russell

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I'd argue that respect is earned, not deserved.

It's hard to respect someone when their interests, fundamentally, are selfish.

Mod: Please do not discuss mod issues on thread. It usually earns some form of sanction. Use the PM function or report post.

kub

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The following has been posted on the Douglas for M28 Facebook page by an individual who is a member of it purely to comment and 'spy' i believe. While i won't mention his name here, he is an architect and the moderator of the M28 Steering Group Facebook page to the best of my knowledge.



Said news reel contained within the attached article

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/0225/1032621-n28/?fbclid=IwAR38dKzSzTEqQ4kipaiI3wc9zqcz_NYO6-67ir9KVkt_o1UNWYEoMejgYto

I am not at all doubting your mention of the guy as an architect, but in all fairness, right across the other side of the existing N28 there is a land bank with nothing but thorny shrubs growing there.


So this guy is an architect and the thought that perhaps maybe the design team of the M28 have not considered noise reduction barriers and pushing the road over to the other side rather than closer to the houses in Newlan Vale defies belief.


He is not doing his own profession any favours coming out with stuff like that.

Aontachtoir

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Once this hearing is concluded how long before a decision is taken?

Does anyone know the answer to this? When can we reasonably expect the High Court to deliver its final verdict?

Rebelbrowser

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Does anyone know the answer to this? When can we reasonably expect the High Court to deliver its final verdict?

Totally depends. On average 1 to 3 months but I've been in cases where Judgment has taken 10 months. If it is seen as open and shut by the Judge then the judgment (and thus the delay) wont be lengthy. Nothing to stop Judgment there and then at the end of the case but unlikely (even for optics sake). If there are novel issues of law requiring a longer Judgment it will take more time. Judge might use the Easter vacation to write up such a Judgment though.

Artifacting

They never seem to mention that it links the rather large area of Carrigaline into the City.

This motorway has a huge impact on the quality of life of tens of thousands who use that route every day.

kub

Artifacting wrote: »

They never seem to mention that it links the rather large area of Carrigaline into the City.

This motorway has a huge impact on the quality of life of tens of thousands who use that route every day.

You are right, there is a greater good here that the objectors just do not give a care about.
They bring up a point about the environment but at the same time suggest people travel further West, with their proposal, to travel East.
As in go on their proposed motorway to The Bandon Road roundabout in order to head for the Tunnel.

Kermit.de.frog

The judge should ask for the 10,000 physical signatures of the people whom this group claim to represent.

Cork Trucker

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The judge should ask for the 10,000 150 physical signatures of the people whom this group claim to represent.

That's about as good as it would get for them based on attendance figures at the RPH

TheChizler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The judge should ask for the 10,000 physical signatures of the people whom this group claim to represent.

That's not his job. His job is to review whether ABP followed the correct process, whether there were 10 signatures or 10 million.

marno21

kub wrote: »

You are right, there is a greater good here that the objectors just do not give a care about.
They bring up a point about the environment but at the same time suggest people travel further West, with their proposal, to travel East.
As in go on their proposed motorway to The Bandon Road roundabout in order to head for the Tunnel.

TII have that clearly ruled out based on the RTÉ News report, basically that it would be moronic to build a scheme that would cost twice as much and deliver half the benefits

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

TII have that clearly ruled out based on the RTÉ News report, basically that it would be moronic to build a scheme that would cost twice as much and deliver half the benefits

That is called common sense.

The 'objectors' clearly overlooking or failing to realise this fact.

Artifacting

kub wrote: »

You are right, there is a greater good here that the objectors just do not give a care about.
They bring up a point about the environment but at the same time suggest people travel further West, with their proposal, to travel East.
As in go on their proposed motorway to The Bandon Road roundabout in order to head for the Tunnel.

Yeah but I think even the RTE report fails to get that across. It's constantly just mentioned as "connecting the village of Ringaskiddy with the outskirts of Cork" when we all know that that linking Ringaksiddy is only part of what this road will do. The majority of traffic will be commuters from Carrigaline and environs and that is why the N28 is so busy.

Cork Trucker

Carrigaline,Crosshaven,,Monkstown,Tracton,Minane Bridge,Roberts Cove and right down to Nohoval, all these places are what the M28 will/could serve, and there's alot more than 10,000 people here who would massively dilute the alleged claims of the steering group and what they claim is alot of support (10,000)

Now i know some will say that some of these roads are accessible by the R600,R611 & L3210, but if the M28 was there of course you'd pick that for safety and convenience.

The 'objectors' rather like the sound of the M28 via the M613 which in itself is insanity but also a massive waste of time and money.

Canyon86

Its ridiculous that the newer sites below in Ringaskiddy i.e Janssen2, have been granted planning permission without addressing infastructure in the area first!!!!!!!!

The multiple thousands of cars that travel down the boreen off Carrs hill is incredible,

The Motorway should have been implemented decades ago,

AugustusMinimus

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Carrigaline,Crosshaven,,Monkstown,Tracton,Minane Bridge,Roberts Cove and right down to Nohoval, all these places are what the M28 will/could serve, and there's alot more than 10,000 people here who would massively dilute the alleged claims of the steering group and what they claim is alot of support (10,000)

Now i know some will say that some of these roads are accessible by the R600,R611 & L3210, but if the M28 was there of course you'd pick that for safety and convenience.

The 'objectors' rather like the sound of the M28 via the M613 which in itself is insanity but also a massive waste of time and money.

The alternative route put forward would not pass cost benefit analysis. Not a hope.

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The alternative route put forward would not pass cost benefit analysis. Not a hope.

The dogs on the street know that, but that doesn't wash with the 'objectors'

Baldilocks

There is a good chapter in David McWilliams' new book (renaissance nation) regarding people objecting to desperately needed infrastructure.
"Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything"

Roll on the judgement. Regardless of what happens - it is another step in the process.
Secondly i for one, will be challenging the politicians when they come looking for my vote on the issue. Their tolerance/ambiguity of support for the steering group shows how committed they are to progress.

It is most disappointing (and a poor reflection on their professionalism) that the news outlets covering this never question the alleged 10,000 people that the steering group claim are against this development.