Deer Renewals and HCAP questionnaire

BattleCorp

wirehairmax wrote: »

Tags are not the answer, not for everybody anyway. Enforcement is the issue with poaching. In fairness to the NPWS, they do not have the resources to cover remote areas 24/7. Its at the door of the game dealers is where you're going to get them. There are only 5-6 game dealers in the entire country, so thats where the focus should be. The only people who should have tags are the guys wheeling in deer to the dealers.

That would only stop some of the poaching. Other lads will still poach because they either keep the deer meat for themselves or sell it privately to people that they know, and in both of those cases people aren't going to be too worried about tags.

Backbarrel

wirehairmax wrote: »

Tags are not the answer, not for everybody anyway. Enforcement is the issue with poaching. In fairness to the NPWS, they do not have the resources to cover remote areas 24/7. Its at the door of the game dealers is where you're going to get them. There are only 5-6 game dealers in the entire country, so thats where the focus should be. The only people who should have tags are the guys wheeling in deer to the dealers.

This is exactly right.. Couple of years ago a lot of gates and batteries were being stolen..no end to the messing.. Gardai and social welfare set up shop at the local metal recycling place.. I saw a lad abandoning a trailer full of "scrap" on the side of the road leading up to the place..
Couple of days of this and a lot of the robberies stopped.

If an effort was made to be present at the game meat handlers it would stop a lot of it, not all but a lot..

Why try to cover a whole mountain when you can cover the access to the money.. Simples:rolleyes:

Backbarrel

wirehairmax wrote: »

That's exactly what's happening. It's being set up so a small number of individuals can profit by setting up these courses and they will push for statutory status so everybody has to do a course for a gun license, deer permit, lamping etc etc
These individuals are also promoting some form of insurance fund in direct opposition to the nargc and have already been heard at a gun dog meeting promoting this.
Most of us know who these individuals are, but due to their litigatious nature cannot risk being sued for one wrong word.

very true Feckin wheels within wheels. always..

The people that stand up to them are knee deep in legal letters but fair play to those lads they are not stopping.

Hunter456

cash cow and getting shafted once again springs to mind, the clown who thought of these stupid proposals should named and shamed. How dare they try and exploit the oridanary shooter.

Hunter456

cash cow and getting shafted once again springs to mind, the clown who thought of these stupid proposals should named and shamed. How dare they try and exploit the oridanary shooter.

Cass

Check out the other thread on shooting at night for updates. While we're keeping these two separate they are linked.

Cass

By the way peoples i meant to say this earlier, and i've said the same in the Night Shooting Thread, but with the hustle of the last few days i never got around to saying it.

Well done to everyone.

The events of the last few days shows just how effective the shooting community can be when we actually pool our resources and stand together. Our voices were heard and our message was loud and clear. We will not tolerate any attack on our sport, especially from within.

Some might think this is over but it's not. The proposals are still live and we need to step up our writing campaign. Contact anyone and everyone you know and let them know what is happening. Keep the pressure on and make those responsible for such proposals listen to what we have to say.

If you don't want to write a letter you can print of sheets of paper, get your club members, friends, etc to sign it and send in your petition.


Again though, excellent work by everyone.

cavan shooter

A now go easy in the IFA lads......Word is, it was the IFA and CAI and WDA that backed the NARGC. This played out yesterday as the SC of vested interests with their Chairman and Acting Chairman along with others on the FCP attempted to hang the ordinary shooting guy out to dry with there proposals on night time shooting. It's not that I'm a paranoid schizophrenic well not that I'd admit to but is anyone as paranoid as me anyone see that some interests in the Deer shooting fraternity are looking for compulsory HCAP....it will be an ordinary lad or lass that pays.

Anyone see that there is proposals for this new safe pass style assessment every 3 years to be done at ranges only for rifles/ shotgun and if they get there way your permit to lamp will be linked to a course.

And of course bring your gun to xyz as the new requirement for ballistic testing...paid by the gun owner is being introduced.....go easy on the IFA.

I for one am hoping that between the CAI/IFA and NARGC someone is as paranoid as I am.

Sheep breeder

cavan shooter wrote: »

A now go easy in the IFA lads......Word is, it was the IFA and CAI and WDA that backed the NARGC. This played out yesterday as the SC of vested interests with their Chairman and Acting Chairman along with others on the FCP attempted to hang the ordinary shooting guy out to dry with there proposals on night time shooting. It's not that I'm a paranoid schizophrenic well not that I'd admit to but is anyone as paranoid as me anyone see that some interests in the Deer shooting fraternity are looking for compulsory HCAP....it will be an ordinary lad or lass that pays.

Anyone see that there is proposals for this new safe pass style assessment every 3 years to be done at ranges only for rifles/ shotgun and if they get there way your permit to lamp will be linked to a course.

And of course bring your gun to xyz as the new requirement for ballistic testing...paid by the gun owner is being introduced.....go easy on the IFA.

I for one am hoping that between the CAI/IFA and NARGC someone is as paranoid as I am.

As I said in an earlier post this is all about money for the boys to do a DOE on the man and his gun and to give the guy that buys the land rights all the say,

Backbarrel

Well lads. I managed to do some catching up and I got some feedback about last weeks meeting from people that know.

Were you ever late to a dinner and everyone else is on the dessert before you ever sat down?

That was the FCP last week.

Seems each party had a slice of the pie lined up.

Some thoughts struck me..if NARGC, IFA and countryside alliance opposed the curfew then the others were for it.

Let that sink in.. S.C. were for a curfew on night time shooting..huh?

Also..this hcap/ deermeat handling course..

NARGC havent held one since new regime started asking questions about it..one was booked but cancelled..

Enquiring minds wanted to know why it cost so much to run and seemed such poor value to members and believe me when Darth Fiscal and the Finance Committee get rolling on something it is get outta town time for the messers...

It is not good enough that a few are trying to make money out of our sport. It has to be challenged at every opportunity.

They will not like the light being shone on their activities..so you know what.. lets all bring our lamping gear to bear on the groups involved..

Anyone still in the SC should ask the acting chairman wtf the story is..

gunny123

Backbarrel wrote: »

Well lads. I managed to do some catching up and I got some feedback about last weeks meeting from people that know.

Were you ever late to a dinner and everyone else is on the dessert before you ever sat down?

That was the FCP last week.

Seems each party had a slice of the pie lined up.

Some thoughts struck me..if NARGC, IFA and countryside alliance opposed the curfew then the others were for it.

Let that sink in.. S.C. were for a curfew on night time shooting..huh?

Also..this hcap/ deermeat handling course..

NARGC havent held one since new regime started asking questions about it..one was booked but cancelled..

Enquiring minds wanted to know why it cost so much to run and seemed such poor value to members and believe me when Darth Fiscal and the Finance Committee get rolling on something it is get outta town time for the messers...

It is not good enough that a few are trying to make money out of our sport. It has to be challenged at every opportunity.

They will not like the light being shone on their activities..so you know what.. lets all bring our lamping gear to bear on the groups involved..

Anyone still in the SC should ask the acting chairman wtf the story is..

Who is the acting chairman currently backbarrel ?

Backbarrel

gunny123 wrote: »

Who is the acting chairman currently backbarrel ?

Mr Paul Walsh

Grizzly 45

Not only that, we the shooters who put these people in positions to repersent us,need to start sending them clear mandates on what we want to be repersented on! Not just a "Grand you are elected,have away at whatever ya think is right lads.!"

Things like HCAP creeping out of the Coilte forests...Feck off back in there and stay there! Game handling courses,a once off at a sensible price please and not in some ware house in mid November .

NCT for guns and safe pass for shooters F~~~K RIGHT OFF!!for yourselves on that one!!!And anyone else who has that smart idea in the corridors of power too.

In short people we have to tell them that we will not tolerate any more solo runs,with an eye for individual profit and not for the overall benefit of the sports.They have a mandate from the people who put them there to deal with topics that affect us directly and that we the electors must be informed first to give them the position and mandate to work on. Communication has to be 2 ways and not like four weeks plus after a FCP meeting.They should be on notice now that we are going to start draining the swamp of Irish shooting politics.

tikkahunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not only that, we the shooters who put these people in positions to repersent us,need to start sending them clear mandates on what we want to be repersented on! Not just a "Grand you are elected,have away at whatever ya think is right lads.!"

Things like HCAP creeping out of the Coilte forests...Feck off back in there and stay there! Game handling courses,a once off at a sensible price please and not in some ware house in mid November .

NCT for guns and safe pass for shooters F~~~K RIGHT OFF!!for yourselves on that one!!!And anyone else who has that smart idea in the corridors of power too.

In short people we have to tell them that we will not tolerate any more solo runs,with an eye for individual profit and not for the overall benefit of the sports.They have a mandate from the people who put them there to deal with topics that affect us directly and that we the electors must be informed first to give them the position and mandate to work on. Communication has to be 2 ways and not like four weeks plus after a FCP meeting.They should be on notice now that we are going to start draining the swamp of Irish shooting politics.

If the NPWS had any ****ing sense they would scrap all these other courses and start there own and pump the money back into paying for more rangers

Walter Mittys Brother

Cavan Shooter

The safe pass for shooters........i was told it's being pushed by a shooting rep who has formed a training company...........

cavan shooter

Absolute disgrace if this is true. Anyone know if IPCSA are sticking with the Sports Coalition...last week rumour was they were pulling out.

wirehairmax

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Cavan Shooter

The safe pass for shooters........i was told it's being pushed by a shooting rep who has formed a training company...........

Any connection to this?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057428330

Walter Mittys Brother

That thread is interesting to say the least.
All I was told was on of the shooting reps from a target type background is pushing this at fcp. My buddy is involved with NARGC at county level so usually is kept up to date with what's going on. He reckons it won't be just target shooters but us hunters too who'll be caught if this goes through.

wirehairmax

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

That thread is interesting to say the least.
All I was told was on of the shooting reps from a target type background is pushing this at fcp. My buddy is involved with NARGC at county level so usually is kept up to date with what's going on. He reckons it won't be just target shooters but us hunters too who'll be caught if this goes through.

That guy seems to have that covered too, he's going to teach us all to be "master" "professional" hunters too. Seems to have it covered.
https://ifhta.ie/

Grizzly 45

WHO is ticking this box or not and who is filling in this included questionare from Irish deer management forum??

I'm not ,none of their beeswax what my qualifications are and not revelant to issuing a liscense under the SI.Nor do I feel obliged to assist in the rope making for my own hanging. Will include a note to that effect when I return the form.
Anyone else with me for a spot of civil disobedience?:pac:

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote:

WHO is ticking this box or not and who is filling in this included questionare from Irish deer management forum??

I'm not ,none of their beeswax what my qualifications are and not revelant to issuing a liscense under the SI.Nor do I feel obliged to assist in the rope making for my own hanging. Will include a note to that effect when I return the form.
Anyone else with me for a spot of civil disobedience?

Just got mine in the post about 15 minutes ago.

Not filling in the part in section one (1), under the personal details, as its not a legal requirement and as you said filling it in only gives ammunition for the pushing of the proposals to make HCAP mandatory. While said in jest, i think, its not civil disobedience, but another way for me to express my opposition to the proposals being brought by thee groups.

As i will not be filling that part in it'll be interesting to see if the NPWS send it back to me as "incomplete". Also it doesn't just ask about any competency or training course only. It asks about:

• Being part of a hunting group
• Are you a commercial shoot organiser
• Have you any qualifications such as HCAP or equivalent
• If so what one, HCAP, DMQ, Other.

The rumor mill has well and truly grinded on with a lot of people now believing that the proposals are in actuality going to be law, or worse again, already in place. Meaning they believe that in the next 5 years you will have to have done the HCAP to keep your deer license.

I have been trying to tell people that this is NOT the case and the proposals are still live and only at review/committee level. Meaning the bit about them beeing introduced as early as January 2018 is never going to happen, and the 5 year phase in part has not being accepted, or implemented.

If this rumor is allowed to go uncorrected, becomes "the norm", and people accept it thinking it's a done deal then it'll become law out of lack of opposition. IOW everyone thinks the Horse has bolted when it's actually in the stable.

The questionnaire is new. Not just new to the renewals, but new in that it wasn't mentioned it would be included. Asks questions like:

• Are deer numbers in your area high, low, sustainable?
• Do you think section 42s are abused?
• Would you agree with a tagging system?
• Do you think deer return numbers are an accurate reflection of the amount shot?
• Would you support an e-licensing system?
• Would you support a license fee?
• Would you support an app that must be used by all stalkers to register a deer shot at the time of shooting it, giving location/co-ordinates?

TBH some of the questions are valid, imo. Deer return numbers are a load of crap. I doubt many give accurate or true returns. Especially those that drop dozens, even hundreds, per year.

The e-licensing system would e good as i've used the e-mail return for my renewals for the last few years and it's quicker, plus you get a reply to say the renewal was received. No sitting around waiting and wondering.

The tagging system. A source of discontent between people. Some agree with others don't. The majority of those that don't see it as a useless exercise, but not that it is a bad idea, just ineffective. Well perhaps something is better than nothing and if it starts or helps to eliminate false returns and highlight those that are wiping out areas of deer then all the better. Of course it depends on active policing, game dealers, etc. but at the moment there is nothing.

The license fee. I've said for a while now that i wouldn't be opposed to a license fee, but only under the strict terms that any monies raised go to the NPWS for better policing of the sport. I know this won't happen, and i'm not being pessimistic just realistic, as all you have to do is look at the firearms license fees and other such charges and see that not one penny is put into the respective departments to improve the system.

There are more questions, and some would make me pause, while others i would like to have a say on. However it does say to answer only those you feel tyou can accurately answer and leave any thing you're not sure of blank.

Cass

By the by. Can anyone answer me something?

Is the HCAP a legal requirement for ANY deer shooting in Ireland? Now i don'tt mean you meed it for Coilte. I mean it's a policy of Coillte's not to allow anyone without the HCAP to shoot on "their" land.

However as far as i know there is no legal requirement under Irish law for the HCAP or any certification/qualification to shoot deer. IOW the HCAP only exists because Coillte want to CTA (cover Their Ass), and not because it's law. So if you couldn't shoot on Coillte lands at all, then the HCAP wouldn't exist.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

By the by.
. IOW the HCAP only exists because Coillte want to CTA (cover Their Ass), and not because it's law. So if you couldn't shoot on Coillte lands at all, then the HCAP wouldn't exist.

NAILED IT!:) And of course the reasons it creeps out of the Coilte lands is three fold.Money,power,greed.:rolleyes:

Cass

I've split out, yet again, the posts regarding the deer renewals (DHL) from this thread. The original thread has turned into a debate on training and the pros & cons of certain courses.

The topic of these proposals and the questions being asked on the renewals are too important to get "lost" in such a debate.

Cass

I don't believe it.

Even after numerous posts here and talking on Facebook people are still convinced that the HCAP is now mandatory for all people seeking a deer license.

It's NOT

It's a proposals from some groups that will benefit financially from the introduction of such a law. The fact that people are accepting this is dangerous not to mention ignorant.

By accepting this as a given it eases the way for the proposals to come into effect without opposition. Then be made law. When that happened people won't be surprised as they thought it was already in.


I hear some saying "sure once you have it that'll be the end". How f**king naive can you be. When in the history of shooting in this country have the Government ever said " You know what, those shooting guys have enough law, i think we'll stop there".

Not to mention we have our own lot always inventing new ways to screw us for money at every turn.

I'm genuinely livid that people think :

• The HCAP is worth a stocking of piss
• Is already a "done deal"
• Is actually a current legal requirement
• Will be brought in
• Are not opposing them

Same thing applies to tags. The topic comes up here from time to time and i've seen now tht people believe these are being brought in and even asking where they can buy them.

See the danger of rumor and ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vegeta

Cass wrote: »

HCAP is worth a stocking of piss

Same thing applies to tags.

This drives me nuts too. Why the feck would we restrict our sport further? We are talking about putting more restrictions in place to combat people who ignore all laws, seriously pause and think about that.

It is the exact same logic which was used to ban new licenses for centerfire pistols. We'll restrict all law abiding citizens because a few criminals break the law.

Poachers ignore all current existing laws and we will stop them by adding more regulations and laws?? Yeah right, that's the thought process of someone not thinking straight (a.k.a a fool) or someone looking to profit from such restrictions. Nothing more.

richiedel123

Cass wrote: »

I don't believe it.

Even after numerous posts here and talking on Facebook people are still convinced that the HCAP is now mandatory for all people seeking a deer license.

It's NOT

It's a proposals from some groups that will benefit financially from the introduction of such a law. The fact that people are accepting this is dangerous not to mention ignorant.

By accepting this as a given it eases the way for the proposals to come into effect without opposition. Then be made law. When that happened people won't be surprised as they thought it was already in.


I hear some saying "sure once you have it that'll be the end". How f**king naive can you be. When in the history of shooting in this country have the Government ever said " You know what, those shooting guys have enough law, i think we'll stop there".

Not to mention we have our own lot always inventing new ways to screw us for money at every turn.

I'm genuinely livid that people think :

• The HCAP is worth a stocking of piss
• Is already a "done deal"
• Is actually a current legal requirement
• Will be brought in
• Are not opposing them

Same thing applies to tags. The topic comes up here from time to time and i've seen now tht people believe these are being brought in and even asking where they can buy them.

See the danger of rumor and ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was talking to a lad yesterday and he said he will fill everything in on his form just so they don't send the form back incomplete and do the hcap if needed

Grizzly 45

richiedel123 wrote: »

Was talking to a lad yesterday and he said he will fill everything in on his form just so they don't send the form back incomplete and do the hcap if needed

Then he is an utter clown!:rolleyes: Did you fill him on the facts of life??

Cass

See, this is what happens when rumor becomes "fact".

The NARGC and the IFA have the largest reach having probably 75% of the shooting community as members. They need to circulate a notice on this.

The NPWS should also be written to., Using their position to further their own agenda.

richiedel123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Then he is an utter clown!:rolleyes: Did you fill him on the facts of life??

I tried to but he didn't want to listen. All he cared about was getting his licence of time