Update on the Quays cycle route

magicbastarder

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

What's Maynooth or any suburban location for that matter, got to do with the discussion of a revised traffic plan / cycle lane for the North Quays?

because that's part of the argument about who the north quays should cater to.

HivemindXX

Chuchote wrote: »

Again from five years ago - can't find anyone writing about the public service parking spaces this year

https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/government-spends-e10m-on-parking-spaces-35257

I don't really understand why this keeps being brought up. I can see why it is hard to find solid data on this 'problem'. Every private sector company I have worked for has had free parking for their employees. A lot of those have been right in the city centre. This doesn't seem like much of a scandal.

HivemindXX

magicbastarder wrote: »

because that's part of the argument about who the north quays should cater to.

The north quays should be kept as it is so that people who want to get home to Maynooth from the point late at night without having to use a park and ride or take a detour? Sorry, no.

magicbastarder

exactly. but it plays into the hands of the point depot. it strengthens their hand - whether you agree with them on it or not - when their customers are legitimately able to claim that PT is not a viable (or not as viable an) option for them, so they have to drive.

Corca Baiscinn

HivemindXX wrote: »

I don't really understand why this keeps being brought up. I can see why it is hard to find solid data on this 'problem'. Every private sector company I have worked for has had free parking for their employees. A lot of those have been right in the city centre. This doesn't seem like much of a scandal.

I think there is a difference between private companies providing free parking and Government Departments doing the same.
The difference is particularly acute just now. The Government already had policies (Smarter Travel 2009) that are supposedly aimed at changing travel behaviour in urban areas to favour public transport and active travel. Not only that, but since the passing of the Climate Bill in December 2015 and ratification of the Paris Agreement in November 2016 it has a legal obligation to reduce emissions or face substantial fines from the EU. The Draft Climate Mitigation Bill was published on March 15th and Minister Naughten said on RTE this am that the actual bill will be published in the next few weeks. We are legally obliged to have it enacted by mid-June.
The Draft said that LONG-TERM there was a need for a National Parking Policy so I guess those Civil Servants and Car-Park owners are safe for a while yet but there is certainly a contradiction between saying on one hand, "Yes , we must reduce CO2 emissions" and on the other hand saying "of course we're happy to pay €X million per annum for staff parking". That's, leaving out the fact that thee are also Gov policies on air-pollution!

Chuchote

HivemindXX wrote: »

I don't really understand why this keeps being brought up. I can see why it is hard to find solid data on this 'problem'. Every private sector company I have worked for has had free parking for their employees. A lot of those have been right in the city centre. This doesn't seem like much of a scandal.

I've never worked for a private company with free parking, at least not in Dublin city centre.

mr spuckler

Chuchote wrote: »

I've never worked for a private company with free parking, at least not in Dublin city centre.

i currently do and would get a free parking space if i requested it. it was also the case in my prior workplace. most of the people who currently have them live within an easy public transport commute with a couple pretty much following the luas route by car...

Chuchote

And it's not taxed as Benefit-in-Kind?

mr spuckler

I just asked someone who has one and was told no.

HivemindXX

Chuchote wrote: »

I've never worked for a private company with free parking, at least not in Dublin city centre.

I'm surprised. Every company I have worked for has had free parking and lots of it. This is not to say that they have enough parking for every employee but certainly for a large percentage if not all of them. I guess not every civil servant gets a space either. Who do you think parks in all those spaces under every office building in the city centre?

Chuchote

It really seems a no-brainer for a carbon action to either stop providing free parking spaces, or tax them as benefit-in-kind.

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

because that's part of the argument about who the north quays should cater to.

People from Maynooth that may wish to go the the NCC or Three Arena outside of peak traffic volume hours? I thought it was about providing a sustainable traffic management /flow solution for the area in general with particular emphasis is priorotising public transport? Obviously the joined up thinking approach would also be prioritising public transport infastructure updrades and improving network frequency and connectivity across the city and extended area so as to work in tandem with traffic calming measures within city. Can't see that happening anytime soon though.

magicbastarder

i was reading about a company recently - may not have been in ireland, though - which decided to award staff who *didn't* drive in. end result is the same as charging, in a sense, but less divisive.

Corca Baiscinn

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was reading about a company recently - may not have been in ireland, though - which decided to award staff who *didn't* drive in. end result is the same as charging, in a sense, but less divisive.

There are also countries including Belgium afaik which give you a km allowance for cycling as well as operating a subsidised Bike to Work scheme.

Kaisr Sose

Chuchote wrote: »

And it's not taxed as Benefit-in-Kind?

The Finance Bill of 2009 had some provision to levy of €200 on those that have parking provided by their employer in designated urban areas but it's not a success as Revenue don't know who provides parking and where the spaces are.

Goombeen Fiscal thinking! It's totally uncollectable. I have a space but I cycle. I get the bus. I walk. I get a lift.....I work from home 3 days a week...

http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/bills/archive/finance-no2-bill-2008/parking-levy-guidance.html

magicbastarder

speaking of the carbon cost - as someone who works from home three days a week typically - i wonder where the balance lies, considering that when i work from home i've to heat a house that would otherwise not need heating, instead of going into a building which is already heated (or cooled).
it's certainly cheaper for me to cycle into work on a cold day than to work from home.

Corca Baiscinn

magicbastarder wrote: »

speaking of the carbon cost - as someone who works from home three days a week typically - i wonder where the balance lies, considering that when i work from home i've to heat a house that would otherwise not need heating, instead of going into a building which is already heated (or cooled).
it's certainly cheaper for me to cycle into work on a cold day than to work from home.

Interesting point especially as you would cycle to work so no CO2 on way!: But you don't really heat the whole house though, do you ? Have you heating zones, loads of insulation and a decent BER?

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

Can you imagine the uproar? Some civil servants where I work have free parking. I work for a private company on the same site.

Meanwhile the world is crumbling under our feet because of carbon overproduction…

magicbastarder

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Have you heating zones, loads of insulation and a decent BER?

heh. i have 11 zones. for a 50s house, insulation is reaonably good (we bought it off a chap who worked for the SEAI) - BER i can take or leave. total heating bill over the last year was approx. €700.

problem for me is that the room i use when working from home is probably the one with the worst insulation.

Fighting Tao

Can't those poor souls from Maynooth use the port tunnel if they really must drive? It operates well below capacity at night.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

heh. i have 11 zones. for a 50s house, insulation is reaonably good (we bought it off a chap who worked for the SEAI) - BER i can take or leave. total heating bill over the last year was approx. €700.

problem for me is that the room i use when working from home is probably the one with the worst insulation.

Work from the kitchen

AndrewJRenko

Deedsie wrote: »

Can you imagine the uproar? Some civil servants where I work have free parking. I work for a private company on the same site. To be fair though, quite a lot do cycle. We probably have the most secure bike parking in Dublin.

Many of the people who drive in I pass every morning on the N11. Most are living in DLRCC area.

My wife drives to her place of work but she has to pay for it. That is how it should be in my opinion.

In most civil / public service offices in the city, parking is fairly limited. I know of two offices that each have several hundred staff with less than 10 parking spaces each - so it is limited to the most senior staff. Some offices with larger spaces (DCC on Wood Quay) have long waiting lists for staff who want a parking space. The media story of ALL the civil servants languishing in their own personal parking space is largely a myth, or a major exaggeration at any rate.

magicbastarder

do the large car parks have any figures on where their customers are coming from?

beauf

You don't have to waste time and resources working where people coming from. Simply make it hard to get into town and they'll switch to the overloaded trains, and luas. If they can get on them.

Isn't that the point of reducing capacity on the quays. Restricting cars and giving priority to other forms of transport.

magicbastarder

well, just if the likes of brown thomas is complaining about the quays, but 80% of their customers don't use the quays, would be interesting info.

beauf

They should do their own survey then. They have their own car park.

beauf

That will be the same for all car parks.

They could scan the number plates and see where they are taxed

Chuchote

beauf wrote: »

That will be the same for all car parks.

They could scan the number plates and see where they are taxed

My point exactly. If the State started charging for its car parks instead of giving free spaces to public services - and gradually got rid of all onstreet parking and replacing it with multi-storey car parks - it would release far more road space for use, and it would mean all the administration of checking tax and insurance (and driving around clamping unpaid use of that onstreet parking) could be dispensed with, because it could be done automatically in the car parks.

beauf

My point was they could scan the traffic on the quays. See where it's coming from.

People will pay for parking if they don't get it free. Which is why it's so expensive. In our office it wasn't cost that put people off driving, it was when it took a lot longer in the car. Than an alternative.

AndrewJRenko

Chuchote wrote: »

My point exactly. If the State started charging for its car parks instead of giving free spaces to public services

What car parks are you referring to here?

Chuchote

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What car parks are you referring to here?

Perhaps I should have said "for the car park spaces the State owns".

Many public servants and many people who work for big companies have free parking in Dublin city centre. This is an incentive to drive; there's nothing against people driving if they absolutely have to, but it would probably be a good idea to make it much easier and cheaper to cycle or take public transport (including having proper park-and-ride facilities at the edges of the city so that people who drive in from commuter counties could park up and use Luas and bus or cycle in town).

AndrewJRenko

Chuchote wrote: »

Perhaps I should have said "for the car park spaces the State owns".

Not being smart, but which spaces are you referring to here?

fat bloke

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Not being smart, but which spaces are you referring to here?

Well the department of education has free parking. Loads of it. Ditto government buildings

ED E

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Not being smart, but which spaces are you referring to here?

For one you have all the onstreet parking which is DCC owned.

ThisRegard

Chuchote wrote: »

It really seems a no-brainer for a carbon action to either stop providing free parking spaces, or tax them as benefit-in-kind.

Not really, simple get around is to say they're pool spaces unassigned to an individual. But unfair then to those working in satellite office and corporate complexes.

Spanish Eyes

I know for a fact that certain Government Offices that do not have sufficient parking on site offer parking spaces in nearby hotel car parks. All free. Fact.

This has to stop.

And the irony of DCC pontificating about priority for PT whilst they have a mahoosive underground car park accessed opposite Dublinia. LOL.

The City Manager needs to live in the city for a year as part of his/her contract, and actually cross the Liffey to the Northside too. Wouldn't that be a good move, rather than sending memos from the bunker on Wood Quay.

ED E

Somebody should ask Cuffe to close the DCC carpark for a month, let them use alternative transport as an "experiment".

Corca Baiscinn

ED E wrote: »

Somebody should ask Cuffe to close the DCC carpark for a month, let them use alternative transport as an "experiment".

I doubt that that's within his power; even if he is chair of the Transportation Special Purposes Committee; he's just one elected councillor. Not sure whether Eoin Keegan could do it either. But is there really a huge council car-park? I thought a poster said recently that City Hall has a huge waiting list. so is another available to Councillors opposite Dublinia? I can't remember where I read the other day that if you want to improve cities you don't offer car parking to city planners or engineers!

There's a much bigger issue though, on the one hand councils say they want to prioritise walking, cycling and PT. On the other hand they are hugely reliant on revenue from parking charges. If they remove on-street parking spaces, it could be brilliant for making space for cycling but they would have to replace the revenue somehow. Guess that's why the Draft National Mitigation Plan puts developing a policy on parking on its long-term list!

AndrewJRenko

ED E wrote: »

For one you have all the onstreet parking which is DCC owned.

The point was about 'free spaces for public servants' so I don't think on-street parking was under discussion.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I know for a fact that certain Government Offices that do not have sufficient parking on site offer parking spaces in nearby hotel car parks. All free. Fact.

Where does this happen? No mention of hotel car parks in this recent PQ response, though there are other paid 'overflow' spaces;
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-02-08a.448

fat bloke wrote: »

Well the department of education has free parking. Loads of it. Ditto government buildings

Yeah, I've been in the Marlborough St car park once and it seemed quite big.

I don't think Govt buildings has a huge number of spaces. Certainly, the rule about free parking for life for former TDs is ridiculous, and should be cut out straight away. They would have some staff and some TDs working anti-social hours when the house is sitting late, so they would need some parking for this.

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not really, simple get around is to say they're pool spaces unassigned to an individual. But unfair then to those working in satellite office and corporate complexes.

They backed off a proposal to apply BIK to free parking because of some of these difficulties. What happens to someone who parks one day a week or one day a month. What happens to someone who needs their car for the job, like a social worker or a building control inspector?

There is a problem with free parking all right, in that the costs of parking are shared by everybody, including those who cycle and those who use public transport. Some form of fee would not be unreasonable.

monument

If we're still talking about the quays in relation to the Liffey Cycle Route, you all might be getting a bit carried away -- there's less than 400 cars per hour at rush hour on Ellis Quay and that's only going to decrease.

377 cars per hour on Ellis Quay was the average the city council counted in 2016.

There's a more cars up closer to O'Connell Bridge as people turn onto the quays from other routes, but all the traffic on the quays is going to be cut once the new bus lanes are put in and a traffic light system (a type of bus gate) goes in before O'Connell Bridge on Bachelor's Walk. A ban on cars turning right from Bachelor's Walk onto O'Connell Bridge will also be in place.

Then, as part of the College Green Plaza, traffic volumes on the quays will be reduced further as the bridge at Capel Street will be down to one lane for general traffic and Parliament Street will likely have its full bus gate (depending on permission etc).

This will reduce traffic capacity on Ellis Quay.

So, we're talking about less than the current 377 cars per hour -- likely far less.

It doesn't directly work this way, but, per hour: We're talking about just a tram load of people, or a few buses, or a small commuter train not fully loaded.

The main thing wrong with the private traffic is that we think about it far too much. Bicycles already outnumber cars on Ellis Quay and on Eden Quay (not yet on Bachelor's Walk), but most people wear-east along here are carried by Luas and a bit less by bus.

Here's the Ellis Quay data;


And a chart showing the people carrying of modes along Bachelor's Walk and the red line beside it:

Chuchote

monument wrote: »

And a chart showing the people carrying of modes along Bachelor's Walk and the red line beside it:

Chart doesn't show the hundreds of bikes that pass along there?

cython

Chuchote wrote: »

Chart doesn't show the hundreds of bikes that pass along there?

Title of the graph is "Passenger capacity per mode" - typically for bikes (obviously there are exceptions like cargo bikes, trailers, etc. but they are few and far between) that is zero

Chuchote

cython wrote: »

Title of the graph is "Passenger capacity per mode" - typically for bikes (obviously there are exceptions like cargo bikes, trailers, etc. but they are few and far between) that is zero

Ah, so the car figure doesn't include cars with just a single person driving it?

CramCycle

Chuchote wrote: »

Ah, so the car figure doesn't include cars with just a single person driving it?

They still have the capacity, although I am in agreement with what you mean.

Chuchote

CramCycle wrote: »

They still have the capacity, although I am in agreement with what you mean.

Oh, I wasn't making any smart point, just thought they were counting passengers.

mr spuckler

comments from each of the councillors from this debate / vote are featured here

DanDublin1982

Some really sensible comments there as well as some idiotic ones. I feel like this comment speaks to the lunacy of option 8 over option 7 quite succinctly.

"I want to get it straight in my head, the manager is recommending an option which is markable substandard compared to the previous design… when the impacts are ranked as negligible,” added Cllr Smyth."

mr spuckler

i think i was most annoyed by this one, it was almost at troll level...

Cllr Ciarán O’Moore (SF) said in Clontarf that there was a €6 million cycle route and it’s “only families” who use it and there are “lunatics in lycra gear” staying on the road.