Update on the Quays cycle route

the.red.baron

This is the obvious answer, close thread

matc66

The decision of the committee was to defer making a decision until more reports were provided.
Paddy Smyth and Paul Hand were virtually the only voices of reason in the room.

Corca Baiscinn

matc66 wrote: »

The decision of the committee was to defer making a decision until more reports were provided.
Paddy Smyth and Paul Hand were virtually the only voices of reason in the room.

But at least they didn't make an adverse decision so we live to fight another day and considering the power/influence of Dublin Town and the Car Park owners and the fact that few Councillors understand or support cycling I'd consider that a victory for now. sounds a bit Roy Keane I know but in the circumstances a victory today (ie vote for option 7) was highly unlikely. now there is more time to show/illustrate/photograph/prove that option 8 is a non-runner.

matc66

I was a bit surprised by the amount of support for option 7. Three councillors supported it, Hand, Smyth, and Horgan-Jones.

Chips Lovell

Watched a bit of it this afternoon. Depressing. Design by committee in action.

HivemindXX

Annie get your Run wrote: »

We need to communicate this to DCC now, before it's built. Even if option 8 is passed we need to tell them we won't cycle on it and that they're wasting taxpayers money and then we need to find journalists who will tell the public that cyclists won't use it. There's another thread here about communicating to the Councillors so hopefully everyone on here has done that.

Unfortunately I can tell you now what the response is likely to be. This route is not for you existing cyclists. The confident ones with the lycra and the nerves of steel. This will be for the theoretical cyclists, the ones who don't cycle now but would if they had a boardwalk to cycle along.

This doesn't mean it is not worth protesting. If option 8 were to be accepted I would certainly attend any protest.

magicbastarder

RTE are reporting it as a rejection rather than a kicking of the can down the road.

http://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2017/0503/872287-liffey-cycleway/

Grassey

Trial by media. It is as good as rejected now!

jimmycrackcorm

There were also concerns at potential conflict with pedestrians where the cycleway would emerge onto the quays at Liam Mellows Bridge.
Colm Ryder of the Dublin Cycling Campaign predicted that cyclists would ignore the boardwalk and use the quays.

Commuting in on the north quays today I was crossing and filter squeezing between lanes like it was an 1980's frogger. Yesterday I took the bus which got held up for an extra 20 minutes.


If one wanted to be a bit more imaginative with suggestions, then why not have a contra-flow filter lane for cyclists and buses in the morning going on the south quays? it would be the cheapest option to implement. Split into two incoming bus lanes in the morning on both sides of the quays.

magicbastarder

actually, is there anyone on here who knows how long it takes for DCC (as in the dublin cycling campaign) to mail out your membership card?

Moflojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, is there anyone on here who knows how long it takes for DCC (as in the dublin cycling campaign) to mail out your membership card?

It can take a couple of weeks I think. It's all voluntary so can take the relevant person some time to get around to sending out new batches.

magicbastarder

yep, i guessed that would be the case, which is why i didn't want to mail them to pester them.

Moflojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep, i guessed that would be the case, which is why i didn't want to mail them to pester them.

Are you waiting to get a 10% discount in your LBS???

magicbastarder

gosh, why would you think that?

axer

matc66 wrote: »

I was a bit surprised by the amount of support for option 7. Three councillors supported it, Hand, Smyth, and Horgan-Jones.

IIRC McHugh was in favour of option 7 - he was just confused as to the numbering at times. The sectoral members will get a vote on it so it means that the Irish Parking Association, Irish Road Haulage Association and Dublin City Business Improvement District will vote for option 8 probably no matter what. Dublin Cycling Campaign for option 7 and I'd say National Council for the Blind of Ireland will vote option 7 too as option 8 is bad for the visually impaired considering it mixes cyclists and pedestrians.

Sectoral Members:
Derek Peppard, Dublin Cycling Campaign
Frank Mulligan Irish Road Haulage Association
Mr Keith Gavin, Irish Parking Association
Fiona Kelty, National Council for the Blind of Ireland
Richard Guiney, Dublin City Business Improvement District

This means that it will have to be a majority of council members plus 1 extra for option 7 to win. All the more reason people need to get on to them.

magicbastarder

ciaran cuffe, on newstalk, mentioned twice that the bus lane carries 10 times as many people as a car lane - have there been any actual calculations about the carrying capacity of the quays in various configurations?

e.g. if they're able to make buses 10% more efficient (and that might not even involve buying more rolling stock, it may be that that figure is achievable by simply reducing the return journey time of existing stock), that means they've added more capacity to the bus network than the entire capacity of private cars. you'd think the retailers in the city centre would be seizing on that?

Moflojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

ciaran cuffe, on newstalk, mentioned twice that the bus lane carries 10 times as many people as a car lane - have there been any actual calculations about the carrying capacity of the quays in various configurations?

e.g. if they're able to make buses 10% more efficient (and that might not even involve buying more rolling stock, it may be that that figure is achievable by simply reducing the return journey time of existing stock), that means they've added more capacity to the bus network than the entire capacity of private cars. you'd think the retailers in the city centre would be seizing on that?

Brendan O'Brien, the city manager, made some good points on that issue at yesterday's meeting. He said the data indicated that the main blockages for buses were on the Quays and in the city centre. Because most bus routes are crossing the entire city, and picking up and distributing multiple loads along the way, the city centre blockages have an inordinate effect on the efficiency of the entire bus network.

Colm Ryder, of the Dublin Cycling Campaign, referenced a DIT study which found that buses travelling along the North Quays have an hourly capacity of 8,000 people. The known occupancy of cars on the North Quays is 1.2 people/car, which puts the capacity of the North Quays for private cars at 600-800 people per hour.

A wide two-way cycle path has the potential to transport 7,500 people per hour. (https://nacto.org/)

magicbastarder

you'd have to wonder what are the retailers actually asking for. they're focussing on the less than 20% of their business which comes from cars, but don't see the overall increase of people coming into the city by designing the quays sensibly?
e.g. halve the number of cars - so a drop of 300 people per hour on the quays, and you might be looking at an increase of bus passengers of 1000 or 2000 or whatever.

they complain about the fact they're competing with the likes of dundrum, liffey valley, and blanchardstown which are easier to drive to - but you're not going to tempt that 'car based' business away from those centres simply because the city centre has no more capacity.

amcalester

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'd have to wonder what are the retailers actually asking for. they're focussing on the less than 20% of their business which comes from cars, but don't see the overall increase of people coming into the city by designing the quays sensibly?
e.g. halve the number of cars - so a drop of 300 people per hour on the quays, and you might be looking at an increase of bus passengers of 1000 or 2000 or whatever.

they complain about the fact they're competing with the likes of dundrum, liffey valley, and blanchardstown which are easier to drive to - but you're not going to tempt that 'car based' business away from those centres simply because the city centre has no more capacity.

Stop thinking outside the box.

Car = good. Everything else = bad.

Annie get your Run

magicbastarder wrote: »

they complain about the fact they're competing with the likes of dundrum, liffey valley, and blanchardstown which are easier to drive to - but you're not going to tempt that 'car based' business away from those centres simply because the city centre has no more capacity.

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I steer well clear of those shopping centres unless I have no choice, (and then I make sure I'm there very early in the morning) precisely because they are car based, how people waste several hours of their weekend sitting in a traffic jam trying to get into or out of Blanchardstown is beyond me!! I work in the city so any retail shopping I need to do I do at lunch and carry home on the bike.

Moflojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'd have to wonder what are the retailers actually asking for. they're focussing on the less than 20% of their business which comes from cars, but don't see the overall increase of people coming into the city by designing the quays sensibly?
e.g. halve the number of cars - so a drop of 300 people per hour on the quays, and you might be looking at an increase of bus passengers of 1000 or 2000 or whatever.

they complain about the fact they're competing with the likes of dundrum, liffey valley, and blanchardstown which are easier to drive to - but you're not going to tempt that 'car based' business away from those centres simply because the city centre has no more capacity.

Retailers perceive cars as providing a disproportionately large share of their customers. Multiple perception vs. reality studies (including one in Dublin City Centre by DIT) show that retailers overestimate how many of their customers travel by car, and underestimate how many customers walk, cycle, and use public transport. Below is an example of one such study, which isn't too far away from the Dublin figures IIRC:

magicbastarder

actually, we were in airfield beside dundrum the other day - and i was thinking it must be incredibly frustrating for locals who live along the road linking the M50 to the shopping centre. at least blanch and liffey valley are closer to N roads.

magicbastarder

Moflojo wrote: »

Below is an example of one such study, which isn't too far away from the Dublin figures IIRC:

i assume the shoppers were able to tick more than one box?

AlanG

Weepsie wrote: »

Ffs, the plan was far from perfect but objections from convention center and the point were taken seriously? Most attendees to both arrive by LUAS or on foot.

Backwards country

Yes for the convention center but certainly not for the Point - nearly everyone I know realises you have little chance of getting home from the Point on public transport so they get a lift or drive. Its all well and good waiting around for a Luas back to town but when you get there most buses and trains have stopped running. This needs to be sorted out first. Last train to Blanchardstown and maynooth is 11:10, on sunday its 8:45. You would be mad to rely on public transport to get home.
Regarding the convention center they also have to consider exhibitors and the key decision makers in business who generally arrive by car or van, without them there are no conventions.
I would love to see most of the original plan implemented but they need to increase public transport frequency first. Not everyone lives within easy cycling distance of town.

magicbastarder

i think that point (pun unintended) was made on the pat kenny show by a listener - if you live in maynooth, there's no way of getting home on PT after a gig.

that said, i don't think we should be designing traffic flows on the quays for gig goers who will be making at least one of those journeys long outside rush hour.

HivemindXX

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think that point (pun unintended) was made on the pat kenny show by a listener - if you live in maynooth, there's no way of getting home on PT after a gig.

What is wrong with Luas to the Red Cow, pick up your car from the Park and Ride, M50, M4 and home. Are people not even thinking about solutions that don't allow them to drive door to door?

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, we were in airfield beside dundrum the other day - and i was thinking it must be incredibly frustrating for locals who live along the road linking the M50 to the shopping centre. at least blanch and liffey valley are closer to N roads.

Theres another way of looking at that for Blanch. Blanch sits between the locals and the N road. So Everyone has to drive through or past it, to get to the N road even of you are not going to the shopping center. Or they take a much longer diversion around it. It effects local traffic in all directions around it.

magicbastarder

HivemindXX wrote: »

What is wrong with Luas to the Red Cow, pick up your car from the Park and Ride, M50, M4 and home. Are people not even thinking about solutions that don't allow them to drive door to door?

you mean i have to drive my car AND use public transport? what is this, the 20th century?

beauf

HivemindXX wrote: »

What is wrong with Luas to the Red Cow, pick up your car from the Park and Ride, M50, M4 and home. Are people not even thinking about solutions that don't allow them to drive door to door?

Would that not cost the same but take twice as long?

HivemindXX

beauf wrote: »

Would that not cost the same but take twice as long?

I think that's good progress. We've already moved from "impossible" to "not quick enough".