Apartment vs. House discussion

dave29ken

Hi all,

Looking for some advice with relation to buying an apartment in SCD over a house. We are first time buyers, recently married, mid thirties, and are have long wished to live in the Dun Laoghaire/Monkstown/Blackrock/Cainteeley general areas as it is close to our family and has plenty to offer as a location. We place a high value on location, due to transport links, amenities, schools etc. We don't currently have any children but we do wish to have a child in the next couple of years.

We have always favoured a house as our first purchase, but recently even the more affordable housing locations in these areas (ex council estates), are becoming out of reach and a going for 40-60k above asking price. The alternative to owning a house is to focus on other areas that are further out- and with that the transport links/amenities tend to offer much less.

As a result we are now considering 2 bed apartments in the desired areas. Has anyone faced the same dilemma and come to any decision or have any experiences that they could share? I'm aware of the basic pros and cons on apartment ownership (management fees, inability to add value etc) but would like to hear peoples opinions.

Cheers!

blindside88

I haven't been in the same position myself but I would caution the thinking of "starter home", a lot of people got stuck in these having bought in the boom with the idea of selling and buying bigger in 2-3 years. What ever you buy I would advise buying it with the thought of possibly still being there in 10 years time. If you are planning on having children in the near future will a 2 bed apartment be big enough (I'm not saying it won't just that you need to consider this). Best of luck with the decision. I bought my house a little over 2 years ago and what I found useful when looking at properties was asking myself "would I be happy here forever if my financial circumstances changed and I couldn't sell and move". Best of luck with the decision

trobbin

Have you not considered that the market is completely out of control? Why should you spend your life savings and take out a mortgage that you won't pay for another 25yrs for an ex council house or an apartment that isn't suitable for your family?

If people like yourself stopped and said no way I'm not getting sucked in here, the prices would adjust. Just rent. This place will fall apart when Brexit kicks in. And as for people thinking Dublin is gonna get all of Londons financial sector, wake up, and read!!!!

johnnyskeleton

We have always favoured a house as our first purchase, but recently even the more affordable housing locations in these areas (ex council estates), are becoming out of reach and a going for 40-60k above asking price. The alternative to owning a house is to focus on other areas that are further out- and with that the transport links/amenities tend to offer much less.

As a result we are now considering 2 bed apartments in the desired areas. Has anyone faced the same dilemma and come to any decision or have any experiences that they could share? I'm aware of the basic pros and cons on apartment ownership (management fees, inability to add value etc) but would like to hear peoples opinions.

Well the choice seems to be apartment in desireable area or house in less desireable area. Thats a common connundrum. There are also the other options above that the other posters have suggested such as continuing to rent and not thinking of it being a "starter home". But on the pure apartment v. house the scenario is:

Pros of apartment
1. Better location.
2. Usually cheaper.
3. Can be cheaper to heat.
4. Can be easier to clean.
5. Some apartments have good security/concierges etc.

Cons of apartment
1. Management fees.
2. Noisey neighbours (or annoyed neighbours if your e a bon vivant).
3. Feeling more enclosed above and below.
4. Cant be modified.
5. Can have serious stuctural problems ala BSQ/priory hall for which the sinking fund and home insurance wont cover it.

For good or ill, Irish people want houses. If you are happy in an apartment youre lucky because you might be able to get a better located property for a lower price than an equivalent house. Equally if your heart is set on a house you have to pay a premium.

johnnyskeleton

trobbin wrote: »

Have you not considered that the market is completely out of control? Why should you spend your life savings and take out a mortgage that you won't pay for another 25yrs for an ex council house or an apartment that isn't suitable for your family

Because they need somewhere to live that has security of tenure and they are getting almost nothing on deposit interest.

XsApollo

Having lived in an apartment with a new child born while living there and now a house with kids.
I would never go back to an apartment.
Unless you can get a bottom floor duplex , which I have also lived in without kids, because they are liveable.

Don't underestimate the value of letting your child walk out the front door and into your front garden and being able to play outside, with the next door neighbour while you relax or whatever.
Or underestimate the things like climbing up and down steps with buggies and shopping, not having a dedicated parking spot, noise , water pumps can drive you mad.

If people have to rent and live in one then that's what you have to do.
But the choice of buying one and having kids also, not a chance.

trobbin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Because they need somewhere to live that has security of tenure and they are getting almost nothing on deposit interest.

At least it's not a life long commitment for something he's not even sure of!

He said he wants to start a family, how's he gonna cope in an apartment? It's horrible, I've unfortunately got friends in that situation.

Ex council houses in bad areas have risen in value by almost 300% and more in the last few years, just because people feel desperate. Due to attitudes like yours, "what else can we do, at least we'll be secure". We right! How secure will you be when the bubble bursts, and rates rise, or you get sick.

I will agree that deposit accounts in Ireland are poor, but remember. Savers have yet to be rewarded. Interest rates can only go one way, and the FED have already begun increasing them. There's a change coming.

If he can hold out and rent, I think it's he's in a better position.

Prices start stagnating last year, then CB relaxes rules, then government introduce the HTB, this has inflated an already pumped up market. In 2006 house prices rose by 12%, some people said it will adjust next year, it'll be a soft landing.

Listen, I can't tell you what to think, but look at the income to property price ratios. Look into what Brexit will do to many sectors in Ireland.

If this guy was buying his dream home it's one thing, but seriously!

Maybe I'm missing something, but hey I'm doing alright.

4ensic15

Council houses are much more likely to hold value relative to apartments. Apartments do not hold value relative to houses so the best approach is always buy a house and trade up to another house in the desired area that buy an apartment in the desired area and hope to trade to a house in the desired area.

mickmac76

As an apartment owner I would advise you to buy a house. Apartments are fine for a single person or a couple at a push. But with children a possibility in the future your standard Irish apartment is too small and cramped for a family. if you invest in an apartment now there is no guarantee you will afford the trade up in a few years and that doesn't include the money wasted on legal fees and auctioneers fees.

markpb

I've lived in a duplex, apartment, house, apartment and house with zero, one and two children.

Any apartment built in the last fifteen years is awesome when children are young: no stairs to sleepily climb in the middle of the night, no stairs to worry about them falling down, no worries about fitting a pram through the door, no annoying steps to lift a pram over at the front door and lots of other reasons.

Once children are a year or two old, having a house with a garden is great. Being able to let them roam around outside by themselves is great for their independent and great for you. Being able to park a car right at your front door is great when you're lugging several bags of shopping inside.

One of our homes was in an awkward area, no decent public transport, had to drive everywhere, nothing was close by and I'd never do it again.

LirW

I would take a different approach and would expand the area you're looking in. I understand that you'd like to live in area X but if it's not affordable, then that's not working out, as sad as it is. There are plenty of nice, established areas around Dublin and honestly plenty of people have to take short drives nowadays to visit family. It doesn't necessarily mean to automatically further out, but maybe think of looking into the western or northern part of Dublin.

Also Ex-council estates don't equal bad areas. There are good a good few of them that are actually quite mature and quiet. I'd just do my homework and would start looking at areas that you've never taken into account, you never know you might find your dream home there.

Samuel T. Cogley

House all the way. If you can't afford on the Southside, look on the Northside and get on the DART. Dublin is a small city really, family will be close by either way.

Pkiernan

A nasty dwelling in a nice area ALWAYS beats a nice dwelling in a nasty area.
Always.

IronSteve

Pkiernan wrote: »

A nasty dwelling in a nice area ALWAYS beats a nice dwelling in a nasty area.
Always.

Area nastiness is subjective

Samuel T. Cogley

IronSteve wrote: »

Area nastiness is subjective

Massively subjective and also the subject of a huge amount of snobbery in Dublin. You have to be comfortable with an area but there are very, very few unlivable places in Dublin, but admittedly they do exist.

That said if you're 50K ish off a property in SCD, you'll get into a very nice area in D5 such as Killester.

The_Pretender

trobbin wrote: »

At least it's not a life long commitment for something he's not even sure of!

He said he wants to start a family, how's he gonna cope in an apartment? It's horrible, I've unfortunately got friends in that situation.

Ex council houses in bad areas have risen in value by almost 300% and more in the last few years, just because people feel desperate. Due to attitudes like yours, "what else can we do, at least we'll be secure". We right! How secure will you be when the bubble bursts, and rates rise, or you get sick.

I will agree that deposit accounts in Ireland are poor, but remember. Savers have yet to be rewarded. Interest rates can only go one way, and the FED have already begun increasing them. There's a change coming.

If he can hold out and rent, I think it's he's in a better position.

Prices start stagnating last year, then CB relaxes rules, then government introduce the HTB, this has inflated an already pumped up market. In 2006 house prices rose by 12%, some people said it will adjust next year, it'll be a soft landing.

Listen, I can't tell you what to think, but look at the income to property price ratios. Look into what Brexit will do to many sectors in Ireland.

If this guy was buying his dream home it's one thing, but seriously!

Maybe I'm missing something, but hey I'm doing alright.

As you've said - if no one wants to buy, then prices will stagnante or fall. Great news for someone looking to buy right now, but what about those of us who plan on buying in the next 3-5 years?

I agree with you main point, prices are higher than what they should be. This is down to the lack of supply, very few purchased during the recession so very few houses were built, along with many of the developers going bust.

Since property prices have started to rise, constructing new properties has become viable and attractive again. This is how it has to work, prices rise in order to encourage construction. If everyone followed your idea, no one would buy and there would be no new houses built because obviosly no one wants to buy one. And people would still need to live somewhere, so rents will rise even further because no one is buying.

The issue is that it will be several years before the supply is there to meet the demand. AFAIK we aren't even building enough to meet the current demand coming on stream, nevermind the demand coming from those who were unable to buy during the recession.

While someone buying now may be paying more than they should for there house, it needs to happen in order for the market to correct itself.

digzy

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That said if you're 50K ish off a property in SCD, you'll get into a very nice area in D5 such as Killester.

Might apply to a non dub, but op has stated their connections to a particular area.
I wouldn't like to be asking granny or grandad to be trekking from cabinteely over to killester to collect the kids from school either....

LirW

digzy wrote: »

Might apply to a non dub, but op has stated their connections to a particular area.
I wouldn't like to be asking granny or grandad to be trekking from cabinteely over to killester to collect the kids from school either....

The point isn't moving to Killester, it's more about that OP can't afford buying a house in the preferred area. And in that case you can either continue on renting there or get "creative" and buy somewhere where you can afford.
OP's preferred areas are among the most expensive ones in Dublin and there are a lot of nice and cheaper areas.

Samuel T. Cogley

digzy wrote: »

Might apply to a non dub, but op has stated their connections to a particular area.
I wouldn't like to be asking granny or grandad to be trekking from cabinteely over to killester to collect the kids from school either....

I should probably stop asking the in-law's to come down from Banbridge for Sunday dinner so :pac:

The point is we live in a city the size of a postage stamp with some excellent public transport (in very limited places). Granted if that's the sort of assistance they require then all other bets are off they have to stay in the area. Buying > Renting any day so get an apartment but expect to be potentially stuck with sub-optimal accommodation as the prices are more volatile than houses.

April 73

As someone earlier said the OP is looking to buy in the most expensive area, not just in Dublin but in the country. For most people that would mean a compromise. Live in the area that you want, but in a less than ideal home. Or broaden your search & find the right home in not quite the right area.
Personally I wouldn't choose an apartment as a long-term option.

digzy

LirW wrote: »

The point isn't moving to Killester, it's more about that OP can't afford buying a house in the preferred area. And in that case you can either continue on renting there or get "creative" and buy somewhere where you can afford.
OP's preferred areas are among the most expensive ones in Dublin and there are a lot of nice and cheaper areas.

I'm not slating killester.
My point is that when you're 'childless 'it doesn't really make a huge difference whether you're in a flat or a house.
Having kids is different. I used to live over work. Dragging buggies and all the other baby stuff up and down stairs is awkward and not being able to park outside your door is too. Having family/friends to support you is vital when you're new parents. You'd be nuts to move such a trek away (the Dublin traffic is a nightmare) if you could avoid it

It's easy for the likes of dermot banon and co to talk about how great apartment living is but in reality they're unsuitable for families.
(I know families have to live in them in urban centres all over the world) you cut your cloth according to your measure. If op can afford a house it's a no brainer.

hytrogen

dave29ken wrote:

We have always favoured a house as our first purchase, but recently even the more affordable housing locations in these areas (ex council estates), are becoming out of reach and a going for 40-60k above asking price. The alternative to owning a house is to focus on other areas that are further out- and with that the transport links/amenities tend to offer much less.

Owning a home is a huge commitment, in terms of maintenance, cleanliness, space, etc. To discover you live beside bad neighbours and remaining stuck beside them possibly until either of you die should you not be able to sell and move on, thankfully all my neighbours are golden unlike some of my colleagues and friends who find themselves hopeless with theirs after buying into nice looking neighbourhoods. At least with renting you can move away from these kinds of people after the lease has expired and not have to endure their manorisms indefinitely.

trobbin wrote:

If people like yourself stopped and said no way I'm not getting sucked in here, the prices would adjust. Just rent. This place will fall apart when Brexit kicks in. And as for people thinking Dublin is gonna get all of Londons financial sector, wake up, and read!!!!

+1 renting is far more convenient than commitment to a bank as a second (or third) wife, the arguement that "it's wasted money" is a farce lie, you're paying for a service and you now have more rights than the landlord in terms of tenure and rates security, and as mentioned above flexibility to be translucent.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Because they need somewhere to live that has security of tenure and they are getting almost nothing on deposit interest.

There are other means to increase your fortune, or better yet just spend it that's far more rewarding instead of hording it. There's enough insurance options on the market to cover that "rainy day fund"
To save looks great for credit ratings but unless it makes you a handsome return what's the point? It'll only get raided by the government when you die or another crash comes along like our pensions reserve..

lcwill

The debate is not apartment vs house its about a property that meets your needs.

Many of the negatives mentioned here about apartments only apply to crappy apartments and would apply equally to crappy houses.

I am married with 2 small kids and just bought a 3 bed apartment on ground floor with decent garden and allocated parking space (so few or none of the negatives listed in this thread apply).

I am in one of those European cities where apartment living is the norm. I could have spent way more for a house with very few advantages and probably much further from shops schools transport etc.

It is not a black and white debate and a good apartment in the right area will be a sound investment as apartment living becomes more normal in Ireland

The_Conductor

I live in a 3 bed duplex in a small gated community- comprising of 2 bed apartments and 3 bed duplexes (few than 40 in total), alongside a mix of commercial units.

I made a conscious decision that I was not going to bring up children here, for much the same reasons as several people have alluded to in this thread- and had a bid on a property- a large old house with reasonable sized ground for my prospective children- when the bottom fell out of the market in 2007.

I've now a 6 and a 7 year old living in a duplex- in an excellent area- and while my mortgage is more than it should be- the non-financial benefits of living where I am- vastly outweigh the perceived benefits I might have from living elsewhere.

I fully 'get' what people say about not bringing children up in apartments- however, every single day I thank my lucky stars that the bottom fell out of the market and I didn't buy that big old house- that I had in my head was an ideal 'family home'.

My duplex is even now only worth half what it was valued at in 2007 (a neighbouring property is gone sale agreed in the last week at exactly half the valuation I had done in 2007)- however, that is wholly aside from the point.

We need to get over house or apartment price rises and falls- and whether or not one property will keep its 'value' over a different property type or location. Property- is a utility- and needs to be viewed as a 'utility' for its utility value- rather than its headline 'worth' or 'value' that people seem fixated with. Worth and value have measures wholly divorced from pure monetary terms- that a lot of people seem to have a fixation with ignoring.

I would argue that if the OP does not see a property as a long term place they intend to live in- they shouldn't be buying, period. The whole notion of 'starter homes' and 'forever homes' should have been banished by the property crash- however, the manner in which so many people were never held to account for their decisions- and politicians were let off the hook for pushing property like crack cocaine to drug addicts- has meant there was no day of reckoning for the population as a whole- and there is a whole new generation lined up to be manipulated, yet again.

I live in a great location- I may not have a garden- I do however have public parks and facilities and amenities I could only dream of had I taken the plunge in 2007.

OP- I would value location first and foremost before any other decision- but I'd try and insulate myself to the best of my abilities (thus I have a 3 bed duplex in an excellent location- and my two children each have their own bedroom). However- I would also state rather forcefully- if you cannot see yourself living in the property you are looking at indefinitely- don't buy it.

Property is an investment in a roof over your head- a location you are living in- and facilities and amenities that do not have a pure cash value associated with them (for example- help with young children from family members living in the immediate vicinity- that you might not have if you move 30 miles away). Instead of looking purely at the headline price- and whether this monetary value will rise or fall- you have to live- and living is more than being King Midas hiding in a basement chortling to yourself about how your net worth is growing (or sobbing if it falls).

Personally- I'd love to hunt down whoever came up with the terms 'starter home' and 'forever home' and beat them up with a baseball bat. People need to give what should be the biggest decision in their lives more thought than simply looking at the headline cash value of a property- and deciding on the basis of whether it will most probably rise or fall- whether to buy or not.

Forget about a 'starter home', a 'forever home' or any other such manipulative term- can you see yourself living in a property long term- or is it a short term measure? If its a short term measure- don't buy- there is a strong and growing liklihood that your 'starter home' may end up as a 'forever home' and you may end up unhappier and unhappier- that you bought something somewhere- purely for the sake of buying something somewhere- and not because you actually wanted to live there.

Life is short- its only as you get older and have more life experiences that you may better appreciate that there are values other than financial values- that you really should be attributing to decisions you take.

Samuel T. Cogley

hytrogen wrote: »

+1 renting is far more convenient than commitment to a bank as a second (or third) wife, the arguement that "it's wasted money" is a farce lie, you're paying for a service and you now have more rights than the landlord in terms of tenure and rates security, and as mentioned above flexibility to be translucent.

Paying for a service - Okay but you're paying twice or more the going rate for the same property on a mortgage and you have to keep doing that as long as you need a place to live. Most of us don't want to be paying (or can't pay) upwards of 3 or 4 grand a month for a one bed come 2050. You have no doubt structured your pension better than I.

Rights though - you really don't. Even with the increased Part IV tenures the LL can, at any time, move back into the property or sell it out from under you. That's without the issue of vast numbers of BTL properties in arrears and the potential for a reciever to rock up at any money.

Ray Palmer

trobbin wrote: »

Have you not considered that the market is completely out of control? Why should you spend your life savings and take out a mortgage that you won't pay for another 25yrs for an ex council house or an apartment that isn't suitable for your family?

If people like yourself stopped and said no way I'm not getting sucked in here, the prices would adjust. Just rent. This place will fall apart when Brexit kicks in. And as for people thinking Dublin is gonna get all of Londons financial sector, wake up, and read!!!!

There were loads of people doing this as prices rose last time around. They hatched little schemes where they would buy when the market crashed. When it did they couldn't get a mortgage or didn't have enough to buy.
Time moved on and the prices rose again and when they tried to buy but again priced out of the market. Some was sheer price but other found they were too old to get a 25 year mortgage. Past 40 you are in a difficult situation to get a mortgage for the first time.
By all means wish that a mass of people can be controlled but reality is you have no control and you can't "should" the world around you. If you want to buy a house 5 years is a long time to wait let alone 10. The market can never really be out of control as it is never controlled.

Eire Go Brach

If kids are the plan. House all the way.
I'm stuck in negative equity in a 2 bed. Descent money coming in. But can't get out.

2 amazing kids. So wish we had a garden just to let them in. Park 10 minutes way. But still they don't get out as much as I would like them to. Would love a house with a garden only for the kids.

The_Conductor

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

If kids are the plan. House all the way.
I'm stuck in negative equity in a 2 bed. Descent money coming in. But can't get out.

2 amazing kids. So wish we had a garden just to let them in. Park 10 minutes way. But still they don't get out as much as I would like them to. Would love a house with a garden only for the kids.

It really isn't as easy as saying 'a house all the way' though, if kids are in the equation. Its not an ideal world- there are pros and cons associated with the various options.

I'd love a house with a nice garden for my two kids- however, I get 3 hours a day more with them where we now live- than I would if I bought a house in Longford and had to commute- and we have access to a wealth of facilities and amenties we wouldn't otherwise have access to.

There are pros and cons that the OP alone can identify and will have to weigh up and try to decide what is best for them.

It really is not as simple as saying a house all the way though- its nice- but there are costs associated with all our decisions- and we can become blinkered and imagine the grass is greener on the other side- when very often, it may not be.

dubrov

I'd be more concerned about space than whether it was an apartment or house.

Even with only one kid, anything with less than 2 bedrooms and 70m2 is going to feel cramped.
A garden is nice but would be down my priority list especially if there was a park and playground within 5 minutes walk.

If the choice is 60m2 apartment in a high-end area vs 90m2 house in middling area, I would go house every time if planning to have kids.

caviardreams

An awful lot of houses in Dublin have very minimal gardens too (especially at lower price points) so no guarantee you'll get much benefit from one over the outdoor space with an apartment.

dave29ken

The_Conductor wrote: »

I live in a 3 bed duplex in a small gated community- comprising of 2 bed apartments and 3 bed duplexes (few than 40 in total), alongside a mix of commercial units.

I made a conscious decision that I was not going to bring up children here, for much the same reasons as several people have alluded to in this thread- and had a bid on a property- a large old house with reasonable sized ground for my prospective children- when the bottom fell out of the market in 2007.

I've now a 6 and a 7 year old living in a duplex- in an excellent area- and while my mortgage is more than it should be- the non-financial benefits of living where I am- vastly outweigh the perceived benefits I might have from living elsewhere.

I fully 'get' what people say about not bringing children up in apartments- however, every single day I thank my lucky stars that the bottom fell out of the market and I didn't buy that big old house- that I had in my head was an ideal 'family home'.

My duplex is even now only worth half what it was valued at in 2007 (a neighbouring property is gone sale agreed in the last week at exactly half the valuation I had done in 2007)- however, that is wholly aside from the point.

We need to get over house or apartment price rises and falls- and whether or not one property will keep its 'value' over a different property type or location. Property- is a utility- and needs to be viewed as a 'utility' for its utility value- rather than its headline 'worth' or 'value' that people seem fixated with. Worth and value have measures wholly divorced from pure monetary terms- that a lot of people seem to have a fixation with ignoring.

I would argue that if the OP does not see a property as a long term place they intend to live in- they shouldn't be buying, period. The whole notion of 'starter homes' and 'forever homes' should have been banished by the property crash- however, the manner in which so many people were never held to account for their decisions- and politicians were let off the hook for pushing property like crack cocaine to drug addicts- has meant there was no day of reckoning for the population as a whole- and there is a whole new generation lined up to be manipulated, yet again.

I live in a great location- I may not have a garden- I do however have public parks and facilities and amenities I could only dream of had I taken the plunge in 2007.

OP- I would value location first and foremost before any other decision- but I'd try and insulate myself to the best of my abilities (thus I have a 3 bed duplex in an excellent location- and my two children each have their own bedroom). However- I would also state rather forcefully- if you cannot see yourself living in the property you are looking at indefinitely- don't buy it.

Property is an investment in a roof over your head- a location you are living in- and facilities and amenities that do not have a pure cash value associated with them (for example- help with young children from family members living in the immediate vicinity- that you might not have if you move 30 miles away). Instead of looking purely at the headline price- and whether this monetary value will rise or fall- you have to live- and living is more than being King Midas hiding in a basement chortling to yourself about how your net worth is growing (or sobbing if it falls).

Personally- I'd love to hunt down whoever came up with the terms 'starter home' and 'forever home' and beat them up with a baseball bat. People need to give what should be the biggest decision in their lives more thought than simply looking at the headline cash value of a property- and deciding on the basis of whether it will most probably rise or fall- whether to buy or not.

Forget about a 'starter home', a 'forever home' or any other such manipulative term- can you see yourself living in a property long term- or is it a short term measure? If its a short term measure- don't buy- there is a strong and growing liklihood that your 'starter home' may end up as a 'forever home' and you may end up unhappier and unhappier- that you bought something somewhere- purely for the sake of buying something somewhere- and not because you actually wanted to live there.

Life is short- its only as you get older and have more life experiences that you may better appreciate that there are values other than financial values- that you really should be attributing to decisions you take.

Thanks for this post, really enjoyed reading through it. Agree with your take on how the location can really benefit. As far as taking a long term view, the right apartment in the right location is somewhere i could imagine us settling in for 10/15 years if not longer i would say, but kids are the unknown for us I suppose and how that may change our thinking (We plan to have 1). Personally I wouldn't place a huge emphasis on having a back garden if good communal green areas or parks are within easy walking distance. I'm glad to hear that you are seeing the lifestyle benefits of your decision, while having a family life.

A big part of this thought process for me is that i have a lot of friends and colleague that were enticed into buying homes in disconnected locations during the boom. They hate where they are and as with many apartment owners, are also stuck in negative equity with no hope of trading currently.

I'm not adverse to renting (currently renting same apartment for last 4 years in super location, love it) but dont want to get to an age where obtaining a first time mortgage is going to be difficult.