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7D Dublin Bus
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02-05-2017 8:20am#1Hi, all. I happened to be thinking about the 7D Dublin Bus. I think it should run as an all day route. From Dalkey it would operate from 05:00-18:30 and from Mountjoy Square 15:00-01:00. It should be an all day route from Dalkey as the only way to get the bus to town without getting the 7D at about 5 in the morning is to get the 59 or 111 to Dún Laoghaire and then get a bus from there. The reason why I think the 7D should operate from 15:00-01:00 from Mountjoy Sq. is so that people can get the bus at rush hour and come home from the pub. I also believe that all important/cross-city/busy bus routes should start earlier and finish later.
The 7D should also operate at the weekend.
Here's my version of the timetable:
From Mountjoy Sq. Towards Dalkey:
Mon-Fri: 15:00 15:30 16:00 16:20 16:40 17:00 17:15 17:30 17:45 18:00 18:15 18:30 18:45 19:00 19:20 19:50 20:20 20:50 21:20 21:50 22:20 22:50 23:20 23:50 00:20 00:50
Sat: 16:00 16:30 17:00 17:20 17:40 18:00 18:20 18:50 19:30 20:10 20:50 21:30 22:10 22:50 23:30 00:10 00:50 01:30 02:00 02:30
Sun: 16:00 16:30 17:00 17:30 18:00 18:30 19:00 19:30 20:00 20:40 21:20 22:00 22:40 23:20 00:00
As you can see on Mon-Fri the timetable starts at 15:00 for rush hour and operates every 15 mins from 17:00-19:00. The bus then operates every 30 mins until about 01:00 for people coming home from the pubs. The same thing happens on Saturday and Sunday but with slighty reduced frequency.
From Dalkey Towards Mountjoy Sq.:
Mon-Fri: 05:00 05:20d 05:40 06:00 06:20 06:40 07:00 07:20 07:40 08:00 08:20 08:40 09:00 09:20 09:40 10:00 10:30 11:00 11:30 12:00 12:30 13:00 13:30 14:00 14:30 15:00 15:30 16:00 16:30 17:00 17:30 18:00
Sat: 05:45d 07:00 07:25 07:50 08:15 08:50 09:15 09:45 10:30 11:00 11:30 12:00 12:30 13:00 13:30 14:00 14:30 15:00 15:30 16:00 16:30 17:00 17:30 18:00
Sun: 06:45 07:15 07:45 08:15 08:45 09:30 10:10 10:50 11:30 11:10 11:50 12:30 13:10 13:50 14:30 15:10 15:50 16:30 17:10 17:50
The bus starts early and operates frequently until morning rush hour is over. It operates throughout the day every 30 minutes (40 mins on Sunday) until around 18:00.
Any feedback is very much appreciated! Let me know if you agreed or disagreed with some some of my points. I'd also love to hear your ideas!1
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A 20 minute off-peak headway to Dalkey?! There's a reason they (twice) got rid of the 8 you know!0
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DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »the only way to get the bus to town
why do you need a bus to town when you can get the DART instead. (edit: all day as well)
why would you want a bus service the stops running one way at such an early hour and start running the opposite way so late. Can you give a single example of this being successfully used anywhere over the current network or anywhere else in the country?0 -
Not going to happen full stop.
There is only demand for a limited rush hour service - outside of that the DART and the local buses (59 and 111) cater for whatever demand exists.
Incidentally the first bus in the 7D timetable is in fact a 7, that starts at Dalkey, operates in service via Barnhill Road, Ballinclea Road, Church Road, Shanganagh Road to Shankill Church, then via Bray Road to Cherrywood Flyover.
From there it follows the 7a route to the city centre (via Sallynoggin and Blackrock village), diverting via Nutley Lane, Stillorgan Road and Ailesbury Road to serve Donnybrook Garage to facilitate bus drivers getting into work.0 -
Where is the 20min off peak headway?0
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I have read your response cookie monster and have looked over my timetable. I have noticed a few discrepancies and have a fresh timetable and a few new ideas.
I think the 59 should be scrapped. I know that sounds crazy but to make up for it the 7D could operate from the current 59 terminus at the Killiney Village Roundabout. The service would go to Dalkey and then through D?n Laoghaire using York Road and Mountown Road to get back onto normal route. Here's my revised timetable:
From Mountjoy Sq. Towards Dalkey:
Mon-Fri: 15:00 15:40 16:20 16:40 17:00 17:20 17:40 18:00 18:20 19:00 19:40 20:20 21:00 22:00 22:45 23:30 00:15 00:50
Sat: 16:00 16:50 17:20 17:50 18:05 18:30 19:10 19:50 20:10 21:00 21:40 22:30 23:15 23:50 00:30 01:00 01:40 02:15
Sun: 16:00 16:50 17:30 18:00 18:30 19:10 19:55 20:40 21:30 22:20 23:10 23:55
From Dalkey Towards Mountjoy Sq.:
Mon-Fri: 05:00 05:20d 05:45 07:15 07:50 08:15 08:45 09:20 10:00 11:00 12:00 13:10 14:00 14:50 15:50 16:50 17:30 18:20
Sat: 05:45d 06:15 06:45 07:15 07:45 08:15 08:45 09:30 10:20 11:00 12:00 13:15 14:15 15:15 16:15 17:15 18:20 19:00
Sun: 07:00 07:30 08:00 08:30 09:00 10:00 11:00 12:00 13:00 14:00 15:00 16:00 17:00 18:000 -
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The costs of operating that service would be huge for the number of passengers that would use it.
Are you really suggesting that a bus from Dalkey to the City Center should run all the way back from the city center to Dalkey without passengers on to operate the next service from Dalkey? That is why one direction services make no sense, you end up with a massive amount of dead running with no revenue.
There is no way that anything like this will ever happen.0 -
I suppose. But is there any demand for a bus from town out to Dalkey outside of rush hour?0
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DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »..... is there any demand for a bus from town out to Dalkey outside of rush hour?
If you have to ask that question, I would suggest that you have no business proposing changes or additions to the services on that route.0 -
Get the dart mate.0
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Dalkey has a population of around 10k.
There are parts of Dublin considerably bigger than dalkey (and missing dart and luas links) that are struggling with public transport.
Let's sort them out first.0 -
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DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »I have read your response cookie monster and have looked over my timetable. I have noticed a few discrepancies and have a fresh timetable and a few new ideas.
you seemed to have missed the obvious error; one way terminating at 6.20pm and the other not even starting until 3pm...0 -
I might as well jump into this thread as I've always shared the same sentiment as the OP. However, if you are going to have a service operating, it should run from 7AM to 11:30PM Monday to Sunday in BOTH directions. Sadly, the lack of will power coupled with the skepticism seen on this and other bus route related threads is far from helpful. Then, there are the cop out counter arguments as follows:
- "Get the dart mate"
- "There are parts of Dublin considerably bigger than dalkey (and missing dart and luas links)"
- "I would suggest that you have no business proposing changes or additions to the services on that route"(This one has to be the most hostile of the lot).
Invariably, there are other arguments which use incredibly weak benchmarks such as the cancelled 8 skeleton route. The confinement of it's operation to peak times and weekdays was, in my opinion, a Machiavellian attempt to see it fail. I also think that the 111 is a half-assed attempt to say that they have provided Dalkey with a link to the Green Line Luas when, in reality, the journey length will put any sane person off using it.
I will admit that Dalkey is a mecca for car owners. In fact, it is too dependent on the car. However, this didn't just materialize for no good reason. Yes, there are those who feel that buses would tone down the area and make them feel less superior. But, they are a small minority. While the DART is a fantastic service, modern travel patterns in the general direction of the M50 have created a paradigm shift which plays a huge role in generating car dependence (and not just from Dalkey in case anyone thinks I am being Dalkey centric). The failure of the relevant public transportation bodies in reacting to this only worsens the epidemic.
Now, in a previous point, I mentioned that nobody will want to use public transport if the journey is too long and where the car can do so in a fraction of the time. I've said it numerous times, speed is one of the most important factors of any decent public transport network. This cannot be achieved where modal changes are needed or where the bus meanders through side-roads and neighborhood centers.
Getting back to the 7D. Unlike the cancelled 8 route, it doesn't duplicate the DART as it covers the N11 QBC and more importantly, it is direct. The timetable with only a journey each way Monday to Friday is pathetic. It's not exactly going to dissuade car usage from the Dalkey punters. At least if it ran half hourly Monday to Friday and hourly on a Saturday and Sunday, it would likely gain better patronage.
Bottom line, nobody will want to use a bus route with a handful of journeys per day or ones confined to peak times. I've often said it, frequency sells. There should be a minimum or benchmark level of service for bus routes operating in the suburbs. Perhaps, clock-face hourly?0 -
Yes; they wanted to jam more people onto the DART. Never mind encourage more driving even while narrowing city-centre streets at the same time as widening roads in the suburbs.A 20 minute off-peak headway to Dalkey?! There's a reason they (twice) got rid of the 8 you know!
If anything, the 7D ought to be the 8X.0 -
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Can we post a list of qualifications necessary before proposing anything on C&T, just so we don't fall foul? Thanks.
Happy to answer that...
1. Don't give yourself a handle which suggests that you're an expert, propose a service from town to Dalkey every 20-30 minutes from 19:00 to 00:50 and then, in response to negative feedback ask ....is there any demand for a bus from town out to Dalkey outside of rush hour?0 -
To be fair - I think the OP is a young lad - maybe better to go easy on him rather than lambasting him?Happy to answer that...
1. Don't give yourself a handle which suggests that you're an expert, propose a service from town to Dalkey every 20-30 minutes from 19:00 to 00:50 and then, in response to negative feedback ask ....
I know when I was a lot younger I used to come with all sorts of ideas for potential routes that frankly would never see the light of day.
In this case, to the OP - there really isn't a justification for a direct all day bus route to/from Dalkey and the city.
The 7D fills both commuter and student needs, albeit just the single trip each way, and outside of that passengers can change in Dun Laoghaire between the 59 or 111 and the 7, 7A and 46a.
The potential number of users of such a service is very small.
The DART is more than sufficient to cover the numbers travelling to/from the city and would be faster too.0 -
... outside of that passengers can change in Dun Laoghaire between the 59 or 111 and the 7, 7A and 46a.
+1 in the case of the 7 and 7A, you could get off just before St. Vincent's Hospital, walk up Sydney Parade and get the Dart from there to Dalkey. Would make the (Leap) bus fare €2.05 instead of €2.60 (town to DL) and the saving would cover most of the cost of the fare on the Dart based on the €1 deduction for multiple journeys within 90 minutes.0 -
To be fair - I think the OP is a young lad - maybe better to go easy on him rather than lambasting him?
The part in bold is a tad on the condescending side. The OP is merely making a point about the 7D in that it only offers the public 1 trip per direction direction which renders it pretty useless. I happen to be with him on this observation as the service is just about as effective as the now discontinued Rosslare to Waterford train service. By that, I mean it is not effective at all. Another common ground between both services is that they appear to be more tailored to the workers operating the route rather than the public.I know when I was a lot younger I used to come with all sorts of ideas for potential routes that frankly would never see the light of day.
Your enthusiasm and ideas probably died due to the lack of will power which is all too prevalent in state run organizations. It is probably why they would "never see the light of day" with the current mind set. This is where we have to come up with bold visions and change peoples perception.In this case, to the OP - there really isn't a justification for a direct all day bus route to/from Dalkey and the city.
To be fair, the 7D serves parts of town which are a good 10 to 20 minute walk from the likes of Pearse Station. It also serves a purpose from Dalkey which distinguishes it from the DART and that is the N11 QBC from Stillorgan on-wards.The 7D fills both commuter and student needs, albeit just the single trip each way, and outside of that passengers can change in Dun Laoghaire between the 59 or 111 and the 7, 7A and 46a.
In my previous comment, I made a point about dissuading car usage in the area. However, I don't see how this would materialize when faced with the prospect of a change at Dun Laoghaire. Moreover, at a combined half hourly frequency at best, the 59 and 111 to Dun Laoghaire create a domino effect of awkwardness when getting to the likes of UCD, Stillorgan or Dundrum. Understandably, people will give up pretty quickly and revert to the car.
I might add that the only interchanges along the DART line within the burrough of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County are Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire town itself. From Dun Laoghaire northwards, there is a decent supply of bus routes with the 7, 7A, 45A, 46A, 59, 63, 75, 111 and the 703 Aircoach. Then there is Blackrock which has the 7, 7A, 4, 17, 84, 114 along with the 703 and 702 Aircoach Routes. So, there is a massive amount of contingency if someone wants to leave the car at home.
From Dun Laoghaire southwards, this type of contingency is hugely lacking for the most part. As you go further south along the coast, areas become isolated. This is exacerbated by the narrow nature of many of the roads. As a result, areas like Dalkey as well as large parts of Glenageary and Killiney have become silos. The end result is high dependence on the car. To reiterate another point made in my previous comment, developments in the direction of the M50 and further afield have created demand for new travel patters away from the DART.The potential number of users of such a service is very small.
I would disagree with this point and all. The 7D doesn't just come from Dalkey as it traverses Sandycove and Glasthule, Glenageary Road Lower, Glenageary Road Upper (taking in Honey Park and Park Pointe patrons), Kill Avenue, Stradbrook and the Monkstown Ring Road. Some might say that these areas collectively form a business case for an all week hourly service if we are really stingy about it.The DART is more than sufficient to cover the numbers travelling to/from the city and would be faster too.
Like I said above, the DART is sort of like Ryan Air in that it drops people in the vicinity of Dublin City. However, there are still large parts of the city such as Harcourt, Georges Street, Stephen's Green and Leeson Street which are a fair walk from Pearse. Even Donnybrook I would consider part of the City even though it is technically in Dublin 4 which is just into suburbia.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »The part in bold is a tad on the condescending side. The OP is merely making a point about the 7D in that it only offers the public 1 trip per direction direction which renders it pretty useless. I happen to be with him on this observation as the service is just about as effective as the now discontinued Rosslare to Waterford train service. By that, I mean it is not effective at all. Another common ground between both services is that they appear to be more tailored to the workers operating the route rather than the public.
Your enthusiasm and ideas probably died due to the lack of will power which is all too prevalent in state run organizations. It is probably why they would "never see the light of day" with the current mind set. This is where we have to come up with bold visions and change peoples perception.
To be fair, the 7D serves parts of town which are a good 10 to 20 minute walk from the likes of Pearse Station. It also serves a purpose from Dalkey which distinguishes it from the DART and that is the N11 QBC from Stillorgan on-wards.
In my previous comment, I made a point about dissuading car usage in the area. However, I don't see how this would materialize when faced with the prospect of a change at Dun Laoghaire. Moreover, at a combined half hourly frequency at best, the 59 and 111 to Dun Laoghaire create a domino effect of awkwardness when getting to the likes of UCD, Stillorgan or Dundrum. Understandably, people will give up pretty quickly and revert to the car.
I might add that the only interchanges along the DART line within the burrough of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County are Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire town itself. From Dun Laoghaire northwards, there is a decent supply of bus routes with the 7, 7A, 45A, 46A, 59, 63, 75, 111 and the 703 Aircoach. Then there is Blackrock which has the 7, 7A, 4, 17, 84, 114 along with the 703 and 702 Aircoach Routes. So, there is a massive amount of contingency if someone wants to leave the car at home.
From Dun Laoghaire southwards, this type of contingency is hugely lacking for the most part. As you go further south along the coast, areas become isolated. This is exacerbated by the narrow nature of many of the roads. As a result, areas like Dalkey as well as large parts of Glenageary and Killiney have become silos. The end result is high dependence on the car. To reiterate another point made in my previous comment, developments in the direction of the M50 and further afield have created demand for new travel patters away from the DART.
I would disagree with this point and all. The 7D doesn't just come from Dalkey as it traverses Sandycove and Glasthule, Glenageary Road Lower, Glenageary Road Upper (taking in Honey Park and Park Pointe patrons), Kill Avenue, Stradbrook and the Monkstown Ring Road. Some might say that these areas collectively form a business case for an all week hourly service if we are really stingy about it.
Like I said above, the DART is sort of like Ryan Air in that it drops people in the vicinity of Dublin City. However, there are still large parts of the city such as Harcourt, Georges Street, Stephen's Green and Leeson Street which are a fair walk from Pearse. Even Donnybrook I would consider part of the City even though it is technically in Dublin 4 which is just into suburbia.
I wasn't being condescending in the least - I was telling someone to stop attacking his posts with quite such vigour.
As for my ideas and enthusiasm, I've plenty of both, but they tend to be more realistic in terms of what is deliverable these days, and take account of where priorities should lie.
Let's be honest here, there are far more locations around Dublin that are deserving of the scant resources that are available in terms of investing in the bus fleet than providing an all day service from Dalkey to the city via the N11. The N11 has enough all day services as it is in the form of the 46a, 47 and 145. Those routes may require more strengthening, but adding an extra all day route to that list is something I just don't see happening.
There's a reason the original 8 was cut back - the numbers using it from Dalkey, Sandycove and Glasthule beyond Dun Laoghaire, had shrunk to near negligible numbers. Dublin Bus reallocated the resources (correctly in my opinion) to the 7. After the legal challenge the replacement route 8 didn't get much better passenger numbers with a 75 minute frequency.
That tells me I am afraid that the best way to serve Dalkey is with decent local services in the form of the 59 and 111 that offers connections with the high frequency routes elsewhere.
If people in Dalkey want to get to the N11, they can take the 59 or 111 and change directly to a 46A in Dun Laoghaire with minimal extra time taken. They can also take a DART to Dun Laoghaire for the 46a, or to Blackrock and connect with both the 17 and 114. There are enough alternatives there for people to choose from, without wasting precious resources on single digit passenger numbers.
The rest of the 7D route is within walking distance of the 4, 7, 7A, 46a and 145. There could be a case for some realignment of routes between Stillorgan and Deans Grange areas, but not a brand new route.
Dublin Bus have just carried out a network review in the Dun Laoghaire area, based on all the feedback they received over the years. They held full consultations on this, and not too surprisingly the 8 was withdrawn and not replaced by another route to the city centre. I would suggest that is with good reason.0
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