TDs have voted to make it compulsory to stand during the Dail prayer

realdanbreen

Now that they have sorted the prayer they need to tighten up the dress code. Ruth Coppinger looks like she took down the curtains and ran off a little number on her sowing machine! Of course herself and Wallace etc deliberately dress down to give the impression that they are 'one of us' and are not trousering the bones of 160K a year in salary and expenses.i

ScumLord

RobertKK wrote: »

It is their workplace.

It's everyones workplace, if a muslim got elected could he use the dail for morning prayer? A Jew? Is the next step to give every religion a time in the morning to say their prayers while people with other believes have to wait outside?

Ush1

RobertKK wrote: »

How long does this take?

Does what take?

You're the one who started with the whataboutery, saying it's trivial when it was clearly important enough to be brought up and voted on.

So you either think the vote shouldn't have happened or it should've in which case by definition, it matters and is to be discussed?

RobertKK

Ush1 wrote: »

Does what take?

You're the one who started with the whataboutery, saying it's trivial when it was clearly important enough to be brought up and voted on.

So you either think the vote shouldn't have happened or it should've in which case by definition, it matters and is to be discussed?

The prayer at the start.
I said it is their workplace, meaning they can decide what they want in their workplace, a majority wanted this.

How much business does it stop happening in the Dail?

realdanbreen

ScumLord wrote: »

Is the next step to give every religion a time in the morning to say their prayers while people with other believes have to wait outside?

Sounds like a logical next step to me.

southstar

Ush1 wrote: »

Does what take?

You're the one who started with the whataboutery, saying it's trivial when it was clearly important enough to be brought up and voted on.

So you either think the vote shouldn't have happened or it should've in which case by definition, it matters and is to be discussed?

It very important to a lot of self important people

VinLieger

TD's who disagree with it should stay seated making farting noises, I might actually tune in to watch the dail if that happened

realdanbreen

You know much and all as we live in a democracy and everyone has entitlements etc etc, maybe the 5% of non believers in this country need to suck this one up.

Woodville56

Personally I think the whole kerfuffle on this issue is ludicrous - have their prayer for those who wish to pray, the silence for those who wish to silently reflect and for those who wish to do neither, let them be seated and play tiddlywinks or whatever. As for the time it takes out of the working day for the prayer/ reflection - I bet the Ceann Comhairle spends multiples of the minute or so spent on prayer/reflection trying to control the outbursts and the showboating that's a regular feature there !

Ush1

RobertKK wrote: »

The prayer at the start.
I said it is their workplace, meaning they can decide what they want in their workplace, a majority wanted this.

How much business does it stop happening in the Dail?

I've no idea how long it takes, it's largely irrelevant anyway.

It's also not as simple as "decide what they want". Changes made can have obvious legal ramifications.

But that wasn't your initial point, you seem to be ignoring my question.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

lawred2

howamidifferent wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/dail-prayer-4-3372533-May2017/

Backwards we go...How is this even conceivable, we have the #TechCork17 summit taking place while these mopes vote to stay in the stone age....

grim

very grim

expectationlost

ScumLord wrote: »

How is it even legal to force people to perform a religious act before work?

the arguement is the Oireachtas itself isn't subject to courts (as we've seen recently) the members themselves decide whats what. Although I don't thinks its really constitutional.

lawred2

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

erm I doubt there was anyone who wasn't aware that this was already part of the proceedings.

forced standing during the prayer?

It's incredible. Where are we? Maybe we've more in common with Iran than just a few letters..

realdanbreen

lawred2 wrote: »

erm I doubt there was anyone who wasn't aware that this was already part of the proceedings.

forced standing during the prayer?

It's incredible.

Personally I would have gone for kneeling during the prayer.

circadian

Personally I believe religion has no place on government grounds. These people are elected by all walks of life and while they may identify as Christian themselves, they represent a diverse group of constituents.

This could be seen as a bias towards one religious group and have an effect on dialogue with minority groups.

Do we introduce prayer and reflection time for all religions? That'd be a massive waste of time. A more pragmatic approach would be to abolish it altogether and provide prayer rooms for denominations that wish to avail of them to use beforehand.

The sooner religious practices and government are separated the better. Religion is an intimate personal belief and those who wish to practice are free to do so in their own time and space.

Is there a list of who voted for/against/abstained for this motion?

Peregrine

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think most people here are aware of that.

Anyone who wanted to pray could have stood up and prayed. Now, they all have to stand up for a Christian prayer or leave the chamber or lose money.

VinLieger

realdanbreen wrote: »

You know much and all as we live in a democracy and everyone has entitlements etc etc, maybe the 5% of non believers in this country need to suck this one up.

You mean the 10% of the country per the most recent census results? The 2nd largest and fastest growing system of belief or non-belief in the country depending on your view of it

lawred2

circadian wrote: »

Personally I believe religion has no place on government grounds. These people are elected by all walks of life and while they may identify as Christian themselves, they represent a diverse group of constituents.

This could be seen as a bias towards one religious group and have an effect on dialogue with minority groups.

Do we introduce prayer and reflection time for all religions? That'd be a massive waste of time. A more pragmatic approach would be to abolish it altogether and provide prayer rooms for denominations that wish to avail of them to use beforehand.

The sooner religious practices and government are separated the better. Religion is an intimate personal belief and those who wish to practice are free to do so in their own time and space.

Is there a list of who voted for/against/abstained for this motion?

What else could it be viewed as?

AryaStark

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The prayer was always there but but it was not compulsory to stand for it. It is now compulsory to stand for the prayer (even if you are not saying the prayer).

There is no way that I would comply with this. They should have removed the prayer all together or leave it the way it was.

circadian

realdanbreen wrote: »

You know much and all as we live in a democracy and everyone has entitlements etc etc, maybe the 5% of non believers in this country need to suck this one up.

Where'd you get the number of 5%?

lawred2

circadian wrote: »

Where'd you get the number of 5%?

his god spoke to him

lawred2

or his arse

one or the other

VinLieger

circadian wrote: »

Where'd you get the number of 5%?

Out of their wishful thinking arse, census 2016 reports 10% or 468'000 as non religious

circadian

lawred2 wrote: »

What else could it be viewed as?

Complete ignorance of the people they represent.

AryaStark

RobertKK wrote: »

I am not what is wrong with this country.

People losing their minds over a prayer, standing up, no harm is being done to anyone, people choosing to be offended is where the problem lies.

Religion causes a lot of problems in this country esp in schools and in hospitals. I think that this proves how backward a country we are and that a lot is going to have to change before any progression happens.
How can we expect the government to move towards a fairer system in the schools and hospitals if they cannot vote out a prayer to start work.
Its a load of crap and IS one of the major things that is wrong with this country.

Religion having any part of the governments running is a huge problem and does a lot of harm.

lawred2

circadian wrote: »

Complete ignorance of the people they represent.

Indeed

That and disregard.

Probably highlights the plight of unthinking parish pump yokelism in the chamber as well.

hatrickpatrick

I believe in God, and this is absolutely, unimaginably, unbearably, f*cking moronic. On so, so, so many levels.

They've given the anti establishment another cause d'celebre on a silver platter, they've drawn a hideous type of attention on the lack of separation of church and state at a time when the maternity hospital, the eighth amendment and the numerous church scandals already dominate the news and political chatter among the public, and they've painted themselves as right wing social conservatives at a time when right wing social conservatives are pariahs particularly among young people. They have furthered Ireland's image both foreign and domestic as a quasi-theocracy and once again confirmed, appallingly, the old Unionist soundbite of "home rule is Rome rule". They've dealt a blow to everyone who desires a secular Ireland, and I for one sincerely hope that every TD who voted in favour of this gets absolutely slammed in the next general election.

ScumLord

There's very few true catholics in this country. Most are catholic in name only.

lawred2

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I believe in God, and this is absolutely, unimaginably, unbearably, f*cking moronic. On so, so, so many levels.

They've given the anti establishment another cause d'celebre on a silver platter, they've drawn a hideous type of attention on the lack of separation of church and state at a time when the maternity hospital, the eighth amendment and the numerous church scandals already dominate the news and political chatter among the public, and they've painted themselves as right wing social conservatives at a time when right wing social conservatives are pariahs particularly among young people. They have furthered Ireland's image both foreign and domestic as a quasi-theocracy and once again confirmed, appallingly, the old Unionist soundbite of "home rule is Rome rule". They've dealt a blow to everyone who desires a secular Ireland, and I for one sincerely hope that every TD who voted in favour of this gets absolutely slammed in the next general election.

+10000000

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

"home rule is Rome rule"

Leaving cert history flashback! :eek: :pac:

ScumLord

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I believe in God, and this is absolutely, unimaginably, unbearably, f*cking moronic. On so, so, so many levels.

I don't understand why they keep making public blunders like this. Nobody would bat an eyelid if they opened a simple chapel, I'm actually surprised there isn't a chapel in the dail, it kind of shows they don't really care about praying just looking like they're praying.

lawred2

Takes some level of stupid in the context of the NMH to be voting for this..

Stand for a prayer or be publicly excluded from the Dail and lose salary.. For making a personal decision to not stand for a prayer!!?

Have these people lost their minds? Or have they ever had a mind?

How do we elect these clowns?

This is no different from the workings of a Parliament in a middle eastern theocracy.

dav3

I think there was a chance here for the TDs that voted for the prayer to remain to at least give the impression they're not religious fanatics. Perhaps changing the wording of the prayer may have been a start.

In the past few months we've had dead babies found in drains (kick the can down the road), nuns trying to gain control of the National Maternity Hospital (muddy the waters, nothing we can do), the same nuns refusing to pay agreed abuse compensation (sure they're frail little old ladies) and the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly (what do they know having listened to all the evidence and facts).

When the majority of the people "debating" these extremely serious issues start their day with...

Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee

How can we have any confidence in them?

lawred2

You simply can't

SEPT 23 1989

The religious far right have cells buried deep in the civil service

lawred2

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The religious far right have cells buried deep in the civil service

This was a vote for politicians not civil servants

ThisRegard

Woodville56 wrote: »

Really ??? You don't have to look very far !

Not wanting a prayer said is not anti-Catholic.

infogiver

keano_afc wrote: »

Of course she has, she's an attention seeking geebag.

Look at me ! Look at me! I'm against things!

ThisRegard

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There were also proposals to cut out the prayer and leave it as a moment of reflection. The requirement to stand is idiotic in what should be a secular seat of government.

Pherekydes

judeboy101 wrote: »

I never said catholic, I said christian. And of the top of my head, the preamble, articles 6 and 12 all invoke a christian, or at a stretch a judea/christian god

The Preamble is not part of the constitution. Article 6 invokes god, but nothing about a Judeo-Christian god. Ditto Art 12 and Art 44.

But Article 44 does enshrine freedom of religion and and explicitly does not endow any religion.

Ergo, any prayer in a national assembly to any specific god or any specific church is unconstitutional.

PopePalpatine

ScumLord wrote: »

There's very few true catholics in this country. Most are catholic in name only.

Yep, it's funny hearing the likes of Michael Healy-Rae prattling the old canards of "'tis a Catholic country!" when this country removed the RCC's "special position" from the Constitution over 40 years ago and was the first country to approve same-sex marriage in a referendum.

Sleeper12

They spent 3 days on this. Irish Water they rushed through in a few hours but this nonsense takes almost the working week this week.

freshpopcorn

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Yep, it's funny hearing the likes of Michael Healy-Rae prattling the old canards of "'tis a Catholic country!" when this country removed the RCC's "special position" from the Constitution over 40 years ago and was the first country to approve same-sex marriage in a referendum.

78% of the population said they were Catholic in the last census so the majority of Ireland is Catholic!

RobertKK

circadian wrote: »

Personally I believe religion has no place on government grounds. These people are elected by all walks of life and while they may identify as Christian themselves, they represent a diverse group of constituents.

This could be seen as a bias towards one religious group and have an effect on dialogue with minority groups.

Do we introduce prayer and reflection time for all religions? That'd be a massive waste of time. A more pragmatic approach would be to abolish it altogether and provide prayer rooms for denominations that wish to avail of them to use beforehand.

The sooner religious practices and government are separated the better. Religion is an intimate personal belief and those who wish to practice are free to do so in their own time and space.

Is there a list of who voted for/against/abstained for this motion?

It remind me of this in Austin, Texas.
It is just a piece of rock which caused some to be very offended.

ThisRegard

RobertKK wrote: »

It remind me of this in Austin, Texas.
It is just a piece of rock which caused some to be very offended.

It's where the rock was wasn't it.

RobertKK

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's where the rock was wasn't it.

I was there last year and it is still on the state capitol grounds, right in front of the Texas state capitol.

judeboy101

Pherekydes wrote: »

The Preamble is not part of the constitution. Article 6 invokes god, but nothing about a Judeo-Christian god. Ditto Art 12 and Art 44.

But Article 44 does enshrine freedom of religion and and explicitly does not endow any religion.

Ergo, any prayer in a national assembly to any specific god or any specific church is unconstitutional.

The preamble is part of the constitution, its just not an article in the constitution. You might want to grab a copy of the constitution, if the preamble isn't there I'm wrong, if it is, well you know the story.

pjohnson

Poll should have a "dont care/lol" option.

VinLieger

freshpopcorn wrote: »

78% of the population said they were Catholic in the last census so the majority of Ireland is Catholic!

A drop of 130,000 in 2016, the largest drop for any answer of that question,

Whereas no religion went from 269,000 to 468,000