TDs have voted to make it compulsory to stand during the Dail prayer

Yourself isit

ScumLord wrote: »

How is it even legal to force people to perform a religious act before work?

What in the constitution would make it illegal?

VinLieger

Yourself isit wrote: »

What in the constitution would make it illegal?

Well being kicked out of your place of work as well as fined for refusing to engage in a religious activity you disagree with surely could be argued is some form of dsicrimination

dar100

ScumLord wrote: »

It's compulsory to stand according to the OP. So either stay out or prey?

What happens if you refuse to stand?

You won't have a leg to stand on

nice_guy80

I'll be asking my three TDs about this

religion has no place in our houses of oireachtas

provide a prayer room if they want to pray
thats what they do even in many muslim majority countries eg prayer space in airports and public buildings

Yourself isit

The US has one of these prayer things before congressional sessions. Despite the constitution.

The British have Bishops in the upper house and the head of state is the head of the church

In two weeks the secular French have the day off for the feast of the ascension.

It's OK to dislike these things but the cultural cringe is silly.

pjohnson

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'll be asking my three TDs about this

religion has no place in our houses of oireachtas

provide a prayer room if they want to pray
thats what they do even in many muslim majority countries eg prayer space in airports and public buildings

What if it is your "fav" td's that voted for it. Would you vote for the Sinn Fein/PBP if they are as outraged to standing as you are?

Yourself isit

VinLieger wrote: »

Well being kicked out of your place of work as well as fined for refusing to engage in a religious activity you disagree with surely could be argued is some form of dsicrimination

Don't think it's obligatory. Take a constitutional case if you like.

JupiterKid

This is unbelievably backward.

Separation of church and state me arse.
As the scandal over the new maternity hospital shows, the govt are still very much beholden to the religious.

A disgrace, an utter disgrace in 2017.

Atoms for Peace

pjohnson wrote: »

Approaching 3pm....yup its time for boards anti-catholic thread!

I'd usually agree, but why bring in this law now? It's a bizarre decision by FG that I can only assume is a smoke screen of some sort or else an attempt at indirect **** stirring to harm the likes of the water protest groups.

AryaStark

pjohnson wrote: »

What if it is your "fav" td's that voted for it. Would you vote for the Sinn Fein/PBP if they are as outraged to standing as you are?

I would not vote for anybody who voted for this. I will be looking to find out how my local td's voted and looking for answers about why they voted, if they voted Yes.

RobertKK

The state should remove public holidays for Christmas and Easter.
People should have less time off work.

Never see the same people complaining about these state sanctioned public holidays, or our national day being named after a man credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.
People celebrating a day dedicated to love named after a Catholic saint.

But the thing is, people don't complain about these and their relation to religion, they choose to dismiss the relevance of the time off and the reason behind it.

A lot of hypocrites.

AryaStark

Yourself isit wrote: »

Don't think it's obligatory. Take a constitutional case if you like.

They just voted it that it is.

pjohnson

AryaStark wrote: »

I would not vote for anybody who voted for this. I will be looking to find out how my local td's voted and looking for answers about why they voted, if they voted Yes.

But would you vote for SF or PBP if they said no?

circadian

RobertKK wrote: »

It remind me of this in Austin, Texas.
It is just a piece of rock which caused some to be very offended.

What's the context?

AryaStark

pjohnson wrote: »

But would you vote for SF or PBP if they said no?

None of your business who I might vote for. If the choice was a vote and the only candidates had voted yes then I would spoil my vote - and that it not something I would do lightly.

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

The state should remove public holidays for Christmas and Easter.
People should have less time off work.

Never see the same people complaining about these state sanctioned public holidays, or our national day being named after a man credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.
People celebrating a day dedicated to love named after a Catholic saint.

But the thing is, people don't complain about these and their relation to religion, they choose to dismiss the relevance of the time off and the reason behind it.

A lot of hypocrites.

Everything has an origin in something or other. The selection of Christmas in the calendar owes itself to some pagan winter festival that predated Christianity.

Ultimately what you're trying to say is balls and utterly irrelevant to a national Parliament mandating under threat of penalty a prayer to a god.

infogiver

RobertKK wrote: »

The state should remove public holidays for Christmas and Easter.
People should have less time off work.

Never see the same people complaining about these state sanctioned public holidays, or our national day being named after a man credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.
People celebrating a day dedicated to love named after a Catholic saint.

But the thing is, people don't complain about these and their relation to religion, they choose to dismiss the relevance of the time off and the reason behind it.

A lot of hypocrites.

I agree. All the posters having a meltdown here were enjoying a 4 day weekend a couple of weeks ago, scoffing Easter eggs and roast lamb, drank themselves stupid on St Patrick's day and sat under a Christmas tree for 3 weeks before that.

circadian

RobertKK wrote: »

The state should remove public holidays for Christmas and Easter.
People should have less time off work.

Never see the same people complaining about these state sanctioned public holidays, or our national day being named after a man credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.
People celebrating a day dedicated to love named after a Catholic saint.

But the thing is, people don't complain about these and their relation to religion, they choose to dismiss the relevance of the time off and the reason behind it.

A lot of hypocrites.

Try the other one. Provided we get public holidays I think most people wouldn't care when the days actually fall as long as they're spaced out well enough.

RobertKK

circadian wrote: »

What's the context?

In 2005, a homeless man took the state of Texas to court over the constitutionality of the ten commandments being on the grounds of the State capitol.
It went all the way to the Supreme court, which ruled 5-4 that the monument was constitutional for historical reasons.
It had been on state grounds since 1961.

In case of the Dail, there has always been a prayer before the start of business. People getting upset now, must not be well informed about our parliament.
The changes in reality are not big changes.

Lu Tze

infogiver wrote: »

I agree. All the posters having a meltdown here were enjoying a 4 day weekend a couple of weeks ago, scoffing Easter eggs and roast lamb, drank themselves stupid on St Patrick's day and sat under a Christmas tree for 3 weeks before that.

Yes, the famous christmas tree on which our lord was crucified and gave himself up... oh wait no.

yammagamma

do you know the reason why catholics stand sit kneel sit stand and so on during there mass, its a technique used in interrogation as it confuses the mind and stops the person actually thinking straight,

ThisRegard

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I'd usually agree, but why bring in this law now? It's a bizarre decision by FG that I can only assume is a smoke screen of some sort or else an attempt at indirect **** stirring to harm the likes of the water protest groups.

It was a Healy-Rae proposal wasn't it?

pjohnson

AryaStark wrote: »

None of your business who I might vote for. If the choice was a vote and the only candidates had voted yes then I would spoil my vote - and that it not something I would do lightly.

Good answer not a total hypocrite. I do agree disliking someone standing up is of utmost importance. A partys beliefs/economic policies is truly trivial if someone stands up.

RobertKK

circadian wrote: »

Try the other one. Provided we get public holidays I think most people wouldn't care when the days actually fall as long as they're spaced out well enough.

But they are related to religion, just read some of the replies in this thread.

They don't care as they get a day off, as you say.
A lot of people getting offended for the sake of it, it seems. They argue for the separation of church and state and we have state sanctioned public holidays related to religion and they are happy to take them.
It makes the outrage by some, very fake.

pjohnson

RobertKK wrote: »

But they are related to religion, just read some of the replies in this thread.

They don't care as they get a day off, as you say.
A lot of people getting offended for the sake of it, it seems. They argue for the separation of church and state and we have state sanctioned public holidays related to religion and they are happy to take them.
It makes the outrage by some, very fake.

I can imagine their response if these holidays were removed

RobertKK

lawred2 wrote: »

Everything has an origin in something or other. The selection of Christmas in the calendar owes itself to some pagan winter festival that predated Christianity.

Ultimately what you're trying to say is balls and utterly irrelevant to a national Parliament mandating under threat of penalty a prayer to a god.

So it is celebrated these days as the birth of Christ, only you want to argue the current Irish state was founded in Pagan times?

What is the actual threat mandated?

VinLieger

Yourself isit wrote: »

Don't think it's obligatory. Take a constitutional case if you like.

The just voted for it to be obligatory, did you even read the thread title?

dav3

What is also worrying is that we have TDs who genuinely believe that god is talking to them and guiding them in the Dáil chamber. If they genuine believe this, and they must if they voted for it today, then it confirms what we already know. We have a large number of insane people that hear voices in their head running the country.

What would god actually say to them in relation to the National Maternity Hospital? I doubt it would be 'Ah yeah lads, that whole Maternity Hospital thing was a bit of a mad idea wasn't it, giving control over to the nuns who ran the Magdalene Laundries and to this day refuse to pay compensation, what was I thinking...lol'.

Perhaps imaginary conversations with god are the least of our worries when we still have the church trying to influence the state and politicians.

From a few months back...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/archbishop-tells-politicians-not-to-forget-their-faith-during-abortion-debates-757439.html

Archbishop Eamon Martin has called on politicians not to forget their faith during debates on abortion.

He told RTE's This Week programme: "I think that we would call on politicians not to leave their faith outside of the door when it comes to issues to do with policy and public policy. The teaching is clear on this issue.

Hans Bricks

I'm mortified for Ireland's reputation. How did this trivial, nunnery ****e become an agenda item at a fcuking national parliamentary sitting amongst adults ?

"Should we have a mandatory prayer time before half of us don't even show up in future ?" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Chris Martin

As far as I know it was in place already, it was voted to be abolished and instead they added a 30 second reflection period on the end.
That being said, I don't believe they should do it, work and religion should be separate, especially in the government. Imagine a politician of a different faith being asked to stand and pray for another.
In fact, there was a ban on religious clothing passed in Europe recently, where employers can stop people wearing religious clothing, such as headscarves, hijabs, and as not to be biased, crosses on chains.
To allow that ruling and do nothing about Ireland's governmental prayer is a farce though and in the name of equality, shouldn't be allowed.

The fact that this was brought up at all though is a little ridiculous, but the numbers are concerning.

AryaStark

infogiver wrote: »

I agree. All the posters having a meltdown here were enjoying a 4 day weekend a couple of weeks ago, scoffing Easter eggs and roast lamb, drank themselves stupid on St Patrick's day and sat under a Christmas tree for 3 weeks before that.

And didn't say one prayer or have to stand while others did.

This is a stupid point and has nothing to do with the vote or result.

AryaStark

RobertKK wrote: »

In 2005, a homeless man took the state of Texas to court over the constitutionality of the ten commandments being on the grounds of the State capitol.
It went all the way to the Supreme court, which ruled 5-4 that the monument was constitutional for historical reasons.
It had been on state grounds since 1961.

In case of the Dail, there has always been a prayer before the start of business. People getting upset now, must not be well informed about our parliament.
The changes in reality are not big changes.

Yes they are.

Before while the stupid prayer was being said, atheists and others who did not want to acknowledge it didn't have to. Now they have to stand up and recognise it and that is not right or fair. It is also a big change to people who are not religious and who think it is stupid to have the prayer in the first place.

realdanbreen

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'll be asking my three TDs about this

Sweet jesus! And here's me thinking our TD's are overpaid!

Sue Pa Key Pa

cruizer101 wrote: »

What really worries me here is the numbers it won by 97 votes to 17, with 19 abstentions. So its not like it just scraped through, a vast majority of our public representatives voted to dedicate time to a load of bolloxology. What the proper f**k like :mad:

God is everywhere

realdanbreen

lawred2 wrote: »

or his arse

one or the other

You put so much effort into that post you must have had to have a lie down after it! clown.

Sofiztikated

Let me get this right.

There was a chance to remove it, and they didn't.

Then they decided that an extra 30 seconds of reflection was to be added.

Then decided that if you didn't stand for both pray and reflection, you could be removed from work, and therefore go unpaid?

And people don't see what the issue is?

This ****ing place, I tell you. Have a bit of wit and consideration for those around you. More potential hassle down the road, when they could have done it now. If (or when) there's a United Ireland, the loyalists will have a field day whinging at this. Putting a catholic (I know it's not solely a catholic prayer, but voted by a catholic majority, it's a catholic prayer) prayer before the silent reflection (basically everyone elses prayer)? Fun times listening to that.

What about the infirm that can't stand, or stand for that long?

circadian

RobertKK wrote: »

In 2005, a homeless man took the state of Texas to court over the constitutionality of the ten commandments being on the grounds of the State capitol.
It went all the way to the Supreme court, which ruled 5-4 that the monument was constitutional for historical reasons.
It had been on state grounds since 1961.

In case of the Dail, there has always been a prayer before the start of business. People getting upset now, must not be well informed about our parliament.
The changes in reality are not big changes.

What historical reasons support the move to punish members of the D?il for not wishing to stand for prayer?

On the point of historical reasons....

RobertKK wrote: »

The state should remove public holidays for Christmas and Easter.
People should have less time off work.

Never see the same people complaining about these state sanctioned public holidays, or our national day being named after a man credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.
People celebrating a day dedicated to love named after a Catholic saint.

But the thing is, people don't complain about these and their relation to religion, they choose to dismiss the relevance of the time off and the reason behind it.

A lot of hypocrites.

I guess you could note that these are in place for historical reasons. Let's see, for example;

Easter - Pre-Christian celebration
Christmas Day - This date happened to be the day of the Winter Solstice in the Roman Empire
St Stevens Day - Also known as Wren day, most likely a Celtic mid-winter sacrafice

circadian

dav3 wrote: »

What is also worrying is that we have TDs who genuinely believe that god is talking to them and guiding them in the D?il chamber. If they genuine believe this, and they must if they voted for it today, then it confirms what we already know. We have a large number of insane people that hear voices in their head running the country.

What would god actually say to them in relation to the National Maternity Hospital? I doubt it would be 'Ah yeah lads, that whole Maternity Hospital thing was a bit of a mad idea wasn't it, giving control over to the nuns who ran the Magdalene Laundries and to this day refuse to pay compensation, what was I thinking...lol'.

Perhaps imaginary conversations with god are the least of our worries when we still have the church trying to influence the state and politicians.

From a few months back...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/archbishop-tells-politicians-not-to-forget-their-faith-during-abortion-debates-757439.html

He was the President at my secondary school in my final years there. He comes across as nice as pie and friendly and open, I knew at the time that man was dangerous. Some of the things he has come out with recently and his subtle political maneuvering has confirmed this for me.

Beyondgone

Oddly, much as it may annoy the atheists, Muslims, Wickens and Hari-Krishnas, Ireland is a Catholic country. It's part of the National fabric. The idea of fecking that fabric out the window may suit some trendy ideals, but a swift trip to your local Catholic church any given Saturday evening/sunday morning will reveal that loads don't agree. So they get to stand and have a pray. When in Rome and all that jazz. GTFOI time?

Manach

Nothing unusual about the typical AH reaction to anything that smacks of deference to a nation's traditions that are still held in place of honour by a segment of the people. Concepts that had held a nation together are being frayed and thorn on the progressive's altar of their notation of modernity.

PopePalpatine

Beyondgone wrote: »

Oddly, much as it may annoy the atheists, Muslims, Wickens and Hari-Krishnas, Ireland is a Catholic country. It's part of the National fabric. The idea of fecking that fabric out the window may suit some trendy ideals, but a swift trip to your local Catholic church any given Saturday evening/sunday morning will reveal that loads don't agree. So they get to stand and have a pray. When in Rome and all that jazz. GTFOI time?

Then I'm sure you'd have no problem finding the bit in the Constitution defining Ireland as one.

Oddly, much as it may annoy the "GTFO heathens out of m'holy Catholic Ireland" types, Ireland was the first country to approve same-sex marriage by referendum, contrary to Catholic doctrines.

Beyondgone

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Then I'm sure you'd have no problem finding the bit in the Constitution defining Ireland as one.

Oddly, much as it may annoy the "GTFO heathens out of m'holy Catholic Ireland" types, Ireland was the first country to approve same-sex marriage by referendum, contrary to Catholic doctrines.

I go by reality, not bits of paper. Reality is Ireland is Catholic. Much as that boils the trendies p1ss.

PopePalpatine

How does not forcing every TD to stand up for the Dail prayer undermine the "national fabric" (or as someone else verbosely and turgidly put it, "sacrifices it on the progressives' altar")?

VinLieger

Beyondgone wrote: »

I go by reality, not bits of paper. Reality is Ireland is Catholic. Much as that boils the trendies p1ss.

Reality is less than 25% of the population of a supposedly catholic country attend mass on a weekly basis, and thats the churches figures

Donal55

Something new in the Dail. A distraction I spose from Garda Corruption and Homelessness.

Beyondgone

VinLieger wrote: »

Reality is less than 25% of the population of a supposedly catholic country attend mass on a weekly basis, and thats the churches figures

The best 25%.

dav3

'Ireland is a catholic country' means very little to most people these days. If it truly meant something then things such as contraception, divorce and same-sex marriage would still be illegal.
Attitudes are changing. People no longer want to see politicians praying and pledging allegiance to god, to any god, and asking for guidance when making their decisions. Especially when that particular organisation has left behind a path of destruction in it's wake over the centuries, especially when those debates may be in relation to the influence the church has over the state, especially when we have archbishops attempting to influence state decisions even in modern day Ireland.

Ireland, the land of special handshakes, coverups, nods and winks and nobody rocking the boat.

For the record...

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/05/04/the-prayer-stays/

An amendment proposed by Sinn Féin called for TDs to stand for 60 seconds of silent reflection at the start of each day’s business was defeated by 94 votes to 41.

A Solidarity/People Before Profit proposal for TDs to abolish the prayer being said at the start of each day’s Dáil business was defeated 97 votes to 15 with 20 abstentions.

A proposal from Solidarity/People Before Profit TD Joan Collins to replace the daily prayer with 30 seconds of silent reflection was also defeated by 96 votes to 19, with 17 abstentions.

However...

TDs voted in the Dáil 97-18 to add 30 seconds of silent reflection to the daily Dáil prayer, which is said in English and Irish at the start of each day’s proceedings. There were 18 abstentions.

TDs will also have to stand during this period.

The names of who voted how are in the link posted. There are no surprises.

VinLieger

dav3 wrote: »

'Ireland is a catholic country' means very little to most people these days. If it truly meant something then things such as contraception, divorce and same-sex marriage would still be illegal.
Attitudes are changing. People no longer want to see politicians praying and pledging allegiance to god, to any god, and asking for guidance when making their decisions. Especially when that particular organisation has left behind a path of destruction in it's wake over the centuries, especially when those debates may be in relation to the influence the church has over the state, especially when we have archbishops attempting to influence state decisions even in modern day Ireland.

Ireland, the land of special handshakes, coverups, nods and winks and nobody rocking the boat.

For the record...

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/05/04/the-prayer-stays/



However...



The names of who voted how are in the link posted. There are no surprises.

Have sinn fein got a good reason for abstaining?

VinLieger

Beyondgone wrote: »

The best 25%.

Judge not lest ye be judged?

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

So it is celebrated these days as the birth of Christ, only you want to argue the current Irish state was founded in Pagan times?

What is the actual threat mandated?

lol

You have serious comprehension problems. Where on earth did you get that from?