TDs have voted to make it compulsory to stand during the Dail prayer

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

Everything has an origin in something or other. The selection of Christmas in the calendar owes itself to some pagan winter festival that predated Christianity.

Ultimately what you're trying to say is balls and utterly irrelevant to a national Parliament mandating under threat of penalty a prayer to a god.

RobertKK wrote: »

So it is celebrated these days as the birth of Christ, only you want to argue the current Irish state was founded in Pagan times?

What is the actual threat mandated?

lawred2 wrote: »

lol

You have serious comprehension problems. Where on earth did you get that from?

Robert?

AryaStark

realdanbreen wrote: »

There's a lot more to being a catholic than going to mass on Sunday. The childish notion that if you don't go to mass every sunday then you're not a catholic is amusing at this stage.

How about the childish notion that you can live a life that goes against all the teaching of the catholic church, not go to mass and sin away, and still call yourself a catholic.

Nobody who I know can call themselves a true catholic by the teachings of the bible. People need to grow up and get over this need to be judged and forgiven.

PopePalpatine

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Not convinced it "held a nation together" at all. Religion DOES have the potential to sometimes bind people together. So too does following a premier league football team. But it also, often with horrendous results, has the potential to be divisive or by the focal point for existing divisions, which this Island and this world in general has ALSO seen in horrific abundance too.

But by all means demonstrate that it has held a nation together rather than, at best, merely been one of the focal points for a nation that was holding ITSELF together. Because alas this is what religion does often......... associates itself with some ideal or benefit that it itself adds nothing to or, worse, positively hampers or harms.

It "held a nation together" in the same sense as a prison chain gang holds prisoners together.

Ush1

Just thinking, how strange is it that you have to kneel in a church? All very submissive isn't it? Sorta 50 shades of grey type stuff...

tomwaterford

Ush1 wrote: »

Just thinking, how strange is it that you have to kneel in a church? All very submissive isn't it? Sorta 50 shades of grey type stuff...

Down where my dad comes from most of his cousins/relatives stand at the back

(Though they've had issues with the church/being threatened with excommunication across a couple of generations)

endacl

techdiver wrote: »

There are no words!.... :mad::mad::mad:

Well, there are:

"Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen."



There are no words for the 30 seconds 'silent reflection' bit that follows. Coz it's silent, like.

Woodville56

AryaStark wrote: »

realdanbreen wrote: »

There's a lot more to being a catholic than going to mass on Sunday. The childish notion that if you don't go to mass every sunday then you're not a catholic is amusing at this stage.

How about the childish notion that you can live a life that goes against all the teaching of the catholic church, not go to mass and sin away, and still call yourself a catholic.

Nobody who I know can call themselves a true catholic by the teachings of the bible. People need to grow up and get over this need to be judged and forgiven.

Just as well we're not all " true Catholics " as you term it - then we'd have no divorce , no same sex marriage etc. In reality, fundamentalist Catholics are few and far between. So those of us who profess a faith do our best, follow our conscience as best we can, admittedly there's some degree of "ala carte" about it but still, who'se perfect ? Seems like we're dammed if we're fundamentalists and equally criticized if we're on the softer side of Catholicism ?

AryaStark

RobertKK wrote: »

I still don't think it is a big deal, and the people who say it is a Catholic prayer are being very selective as it is Christian in nature.

Jesus did say to "love one another" so maybe that is the problem here...people would rather hate something that makes others different rather than simply stand to show respect to their fellow humans who as a large majority voted for these measures in their workplace.

I for one am an Atheist and do not believe in Jesus which means that whatever he said is a load of rubbish made up to control the masses.

Looks like it is still working in Ireland and the sheep stand and follow what ever they are told to!

realdanbreen

VinLieger wrote: »

Wow a religiously conservative socialist, i though they were just a myth

I guess it's just another thing you got wrong !

Woodville56

AryaStark wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

I still don't think it is a big deal, and the people who say it is a Catholic prayer are being very selective as it is Christian in nature.

Jesus did say to "love one another" so maybe that is the problem here...people would rather hate something that makes others different rather than simply stand to show respect to their fellow humans who as a large majority voted for these measures in their workplace.

I for one am an Atheist and do not believe in Jesus which means that whatever he said is a load of rubbish made up to control the masses.

Looks like it is still working in Ireland and the sheep stand and follow what ever they are told to!

At last count that would be over four million sheep - all woolly headed with not a brain cell between them, all brainwashed and incapable of having a secular view on anything, yeah ?

realdanbreen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Down where my dad comes from most of his cousins/relatives stand at the back

Aw Shucks! how quaint.

realdanbreen

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

They're not though...

So you reckon that one candidate in a two candidate race is not on the verge or close to being elected?

VinLieger

Woodville56 wrote: »

At last count that would be over four million sheep - all woolly headed with not a brain cell between them, all brainwashed and incapable of having a secular view on anything, yeah ?

Emm your data might be a bit out of date there its more like 3.7 million at the last count, hasn't been over 4 million for quite some time even if you consider the census results for the specific question to be accurate.

tomwaterford

realdanbreen wrote: »

Aw Shucks! how quaint.

Quality contribution as usual

kylith

Woodville56 wrote: »

but is it so onerous for the minority to respect the expressed vote of the majority ? It's only a minute in total out of the working day ?

I suggest you look into something called 'the tyranny of the masses'. Simply put: part of the government's job is to protect minority groups from having their rights trampled on by the vote of the majority. For example: most of the population could vote to allow beating up LGBTQ people but then the government would step in and beating up people because of their orientation would remain illegal because regardless of what the majority says some things are still wrong.

Discriminating against non-Christians by fining them or excluding them from their place of work unless they participate in a Christian ritual is tyranny of masses.

realdanbreen

AryaStark wrote: »

.

I am so embarrassed to be Irish at the minute. QUOTE]

Unbelieveable!

tomwaterford

kylith wrote: »

Discriminating against non-Christians by fining them or excluding them from their place of work unless they participate in a Christian ritual is tyranny of masses.

Pretty sure this should fall under a work placement discrimination act....as one of main areas in work, you can't discriminate on is religion??

Woodville56

VinLieger wrote: »

Woodville56 wrote: »

At last count that would be over four million sheep - all woolly headed with not a brain cell between them, all brainwashed and incapable of having a secular view on anything, yeah ?

Emm your data might be a bit out of date there its more like 3.7 million at the last count, hasn't been over 4 million for quite some time even if you consider the census results for the specific question to be accurate.

I stand corrected on the 4 million , likewise on the accuracy question - ''twas probably all the Legion of Mary mammies with the priests looking over their shoulder who completed that question on the Census form.

kylith

tomwaterford wrote: »

Pretty sure this should fall under a work placement discrimination act....as one of main areas in work, you can't discriminate on is religion??

I've been thinking about that. Either it is a work event, in which case you can't discriminate because of religion, or it's not a work event, in which case you can't suspend or dock the pay of someone who does not choose to participate.

Woodville56

kylith wrote: »

Woodville56 wrote: »

but is it so onerous for the minority to respect the expressed vote of the majority ? It's only a minute in total out of the working day ?

I suggest you look into something called 'the tyranny of the masses'. Simply put: part of the government's job is to protect minority groups from having their rights trampled on by the vote of the majority. For example: most of the population could vote to allow beating up LGBTQ people but then the government would step in and beating up people because of their orientation would remain illegal because regardless of what the majority says some things are still wrong.

Discriminating against non-Christians by fining them or excluding them from their place of work unless they participate in a Christian ritual is tyranny of masses.

And I'd suggest you reread my postings where I've said on several occasions that excluding non christians or penalizing them for non participation was inappropriate and unacceptable

tomwaterford

kylith wrote: »

I've been thinking about that. Either it is a work event, in which case you can't discriminate because of religion, or it's not a work event, in which case you can't suspend or dock the pay of someone who does not choose to participate.

There is the outside chance that the dail might be excluded specifically (though I find it hard to imagine they are for this legislation)


Either way,take a moment to recall that this motion was adopted as a counter measure to abolish the prayer thing in place of quiet reflection!
Bizzare.....wonder wholl be the first to challenge this in the courts?

screamer

Oh outrage outrage...... They've done a lot worse with no outcry from the masses (no pun intended)........ Pathetic to be so outraged over this. Don't wanna stand or pray you don't have to attend.... About time we grew up and focused our outrage on important matters.

VinLieger

kylith wrote: »

I've been thinking about that. Either it is a work event, in which case you can't discriminate because of religion, or it's not a work event, in which case you can't suspend or dock the pay of someone who does not choose to participate.

Heres an interesting question, IF a TD is suspended and misses a vote, then takes an action and wins against the legality of said suspension could that vote then be ruled invalid?

tomwaterford

screamer wrote: »

Oh outrage outrage...... They've done a lot worse with no outcry from the masses (no pun intended)........ Pathetic to be so outraged over this. Don't wanna stand or pray you don't have to attend.... About time we grew up and focused our outrage on important matters.

Pretty much saying if you don't want to take part in forced religious practices........then dont go to work?

realdanbreen

tomwaterford wrote: »

There is the outside chance that the dail might be excluded specifically (though I find it hard to imagine they are for this legislation)


Either way,take a moment to recall that this motion was adopted as a counter measure to abolish the prayer thing in place of quiet reflection!
Bizzare.....wonder wholl be the first to challenge this in the courts?

Can't see your buddies in Sinn Fein taking a case anyway seeing as they voted for it.

lawred2

screamer wrote: »

Oh outrage outrage...... They've done a lot worse with no outcry from the masses (no pun intended)........ Pathetic to be so outraged over this. Don't wanna stand or pray you don't have to attend.... About time we grew up and focused our outrage on important matters.

You don't have to attend our national parliament?

That's well reasoned out.

I agree that it is indeed about time that we grew up.

lawred2

realdanbreen wrote: »

Can't see your buddies in Sinn Fein taking a case anyway seeing as they voted for it.

They didn't.

VinLieger

realdanbreen wrote: »

Can't see your buddies in Sinn Fein taking a case anyway seeing as they voted for it.

Actually they abstained from the vote that won

tomwaterford

realdanbreen wrote: »

Can't see your buddies in Sinn Fein taking a case anyway seeing as they voted for it.

I didn't name any political parties.....I do think the proper running of the dail should be above party politics


If your happy to in 2017 have religion rimmed down peoples throat....who am I to argue againest such outdated thinking

ScumLord

kylith wrote: »

I suggest you look into something called 'the tyranny of the masses'.

Ah father Brendan wasn't that bad.. Oh Tyranny.. I thought you said something else.

Mr.Micro

The church still has its icy grip. When it comes to decision making the politicians are already compromised.The decision on the maternity hospital is one example. Pathetic.

Woodville56

screamer wrote: »

Oh outrage outrage...... They've done a lot worse with no outcry from the masses (no pun intended)........ Pathetic to be so outraged over this. Don't wanna stand or pray you don't have to attend.... About time we grew up and focused our outrage on important matters.

On a slow news day for Coppinger & Co, gotta keep the profile out there some way - she really does a great victim impersonation on this issue

RobertKK

lawred2 wrote: »

Robert?

The prayer in the Dail has been around since the founding of the state, which was not in pagan times so to link public holidays for Christmas by the state as being linked to pagan times is wrong.

realdanbreen

tomwaterford wrote: »

I didn't name any political parties.....I do think the proper running of the dail should be above party politics


If your happy to in 2017 have religion rimmed down peoples throat....who am I to argue againest such outdated thinking

So you want us to have a country where there is religious oppression, somewhere like Burma or China. Thank god your Lá never Tiocaidh Tom and ye eventually stopped blowing up people for the cause.

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

The prayer in the Dail has been around since the founding of the state, which was not in pagan times so to link public holidays for Christmas by the state as being linked to pagan times is wrong.

Well at least you've confirmed that you suffer from crippling comprehension problems.

RobertKK

Scientific study found that people who pray together live longer.
They only want to live longer for their pensions...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/838603

VinLieger

realdanbreen wrote: »

So you want us to have a country where there is religious oppression, somewhere like Burma or China. Thank god your Lá never Tiocaidh Tom and ye eventually stopped blowing up people for the cause.

Wow thats one hell of a straw man and just more evidence of the blindness of privilege that many catholics in ireland are guilty of.

Removing the privileged position and preference catholicism receives from the state is not discrimination or religious oppression, if anything its removing the discrimination and oppression other systems of belief are subject to due to the preference catholicism receives from the state

Secularism is about a balance and not putting one system of belief above any others

tomwaterford

realdanbreen wrote: »

So you want us to have a country where there is religious oppression, somewhere like Burma or China. Thank god your Lá never Tiocaidh Tom and ye eventually stopped blowing up people for the cause.

What are you dribbling on about now??


Your the one what supports religion and praying in the 21st century

RobertKK

lawred2 wrote: »

Well at least you've confirmed that you suffer from crippling comprehension problems.

All you have confirmed is you rather attack the person rathe than deal with what was posted earlier.

VinLieger

RobertKK wrote: »

The prayer in the Dail has been around since the founding of the state, which was not in pagan times so to link public holidays for Christmas by the state as being linked to pagan times is wrong.

Christmas and the specific time of year it is celebrated at is a pagan holiday co-opted by Christianity that existed well before Christianity came along, surely you are aware of this?

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

All you confirmed is you rather attack the person rathe than deal with what was posted earlier.

Well that's wrong. You've wildly and incorrectly misinterpreted what I posted.

I asked you to try again and you've maintained your misinterpretation.

I've been generous and concluded that you must suffer from some comprehension problems. The other possibility of course is that you choose to be disingenuous and deliberately misrepresent to self serve, but good Catholics wouldn't do that right!?

RobertKK

VinLieger wrote: »

Christmas and the specific time of year it is celebrated at is a pagan holiday co-opted by Christianity that existed well before Christianity came along, surely you are aware of this?

Yes but did the state have a public holiday for the pagan holiday or the Christian holiday?

RobertKK

lawred2 wrote: »

Well that's wrong. You've wildly and incorrectly misinterpreted what I posted.

I asked you to try again and you've maintained your misinterpretation.

I've been generous and concluded that you must suffer from some comprehension problems. The other possibility of course is that you choose to be disingenuous and deliberately misrepresent to self serve, but good Catholics wouldn't do that right!?

You have not been generous. A generous person would not keep making claims a person suffers from comprehension problems on several occasions.

The fact is we have public holidays for Christian events - the birth and death of Jesus.
It doesn't matter what link to pagan times any of these may have had to ancient times, they are not made public holidays for pagan events.
The same reason our national day is that of a saint credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

You have not been generous. A generous person would not keep making claims a person suffers from comprehension problems on several occasions.

The fact is we have public holidays for Christian events - the birth and death of Jesus.
It doesn't matter what link to pagan times any of these may have had to ancient times, they are not made public holidays for pagan events.
The same reason our national day is that of a saint credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.

Well if you didn't repeatedly misinterpret what I said then you chose to deliberately misrepresent what I said.

tomwaterford

RobertKK wrote: »

You have not been generous. A generous person would not keep making claims a person suffers from comprehension problems on several occasions.

The fact is we have public holidays for Christian events - the birth and death of Jesus.
It doesn't matter what link to pagan times any of these may have had to ancient times, they are not made public holidays for pagan events.
The same reason our national day is that of a saint credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.

What has any of this to do with ramming religion down people's throat in the dail

nozzferrahhtoo

screamer wrote: »

Oh outrage outrage...... They've done a lot worse with no outcry from the masses (no pun intended)........ Pathetic to be so outraged over this. Don't wanna stand or pray you don't have to attend.... About time we grew up and focused our outrage on important matters.

And yet the only one coming across as outraged is you, that people are simply explaining why they think this is a bad and even harmful idea. Probably not your fault. I blame our media for having everyone fall over themselves to slap the word "outrage" on even the most modicum of dissent. Someone says "Hmmm I am not sure that is a good idea" and suddenly it is "Speaker OUTRAGED with idea!!!!!".

But I would point out that dealing with "more important matters" is not mutually exclusive with dealing with THIS one. Many of us deal with many matters in parallel, with and without levels of overlap.

But what constitutes "important" is also worth consideration. Quite often with issues like this one, it is not entirely the issue itself that is "important" but the implications and precedents it sets, and the awareness of OTHER important issues that it displays. There are issues bigger than this one sole particular issue, that make this one sole particular issue important by proxy.

So if you are looking at it and only seeing the sole issue itself, then you are the one at fault here, not the ones discussing it.

As for "growing up", perhaps that is better directed at people who talk to their imaginary friend, or who do not know how and when to keep their own personal hobby out of the workplace? Because they are the only ones I am seeing here requiring any maturation process. There are few people I can think of, other than these religious here, who seem to suffer with this inability to keep personal hobbies in personal time, and out of their work place and work time.

realdanbreen wrote: »

So you want us to have a country where there is religious oppression, somewhere like Burma or China.

Again I have to ask, where DO you people get all this straw? That is not the position that many, if anyone, on this thread is suggesting or espousing. Keeping peoples personal hobby out of the workplace...... especially a public state workplace......... is not "oppression".

Not allowing them to partake of their personal hobby of choice at any time, ever, even in their own personal downtime...... now THAT would be oppression and you would........ for once......... have a valid basis for playing the "persecution card" that you are so fond of.

RobertKK

lawred2 wrote: »

Everything has an origin in something or other. The selection of Christmas in the calendar owes itself to some pagan winter festival that predated Christianity.

Ultimately what you're trying to say is balls and utterly irrelevant to a national Parliament mandating under threat of penalty a prayer to a god.

This is the post in question.

Are you going to continue to argue the state has public holidays for pagan festivals?

I said people were hypocrites about the prayer and standing up for it, while the same people complaining have no problem accepting days off work for public holidays for the birth and death of Jesus, and our national day being named after a man who is credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.

Where is the outrage over the state giving special days off to mark big Christian events.
They were not made public holidays for pagan events.

This is the hypocrisy that exists and which is uncomfortable for the people who like to complain, but happy to take something that is linked to Christianity if it benefits them.

realdanbreen

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And yet the only one coming across as outraged is you, that people are simply explaining why they think this is a bad and even harmful idea. Probably not your fault. I blame our media for having everyone fall over themselves to slap the word "outrage" on even the most modicum of dissent. Someone says "Hmmm I am not sure that is a good idea" and suddenly it is "Speaker OUTRAGED with idea!!!!!".

But I would point out that dealing with "more important matters" is not mutually exclusive with dealing with THIS one. Many of us deal with many matters in parallel, with and without levels of overlap.

But what constitutes "important" is also worth consideration. Quite often with issues like this one, it is not entirely the issue itself that is "important" but the implications and precedents it sets, and the awareness of OTHER important issues that it displays. There are issues bigger than this one sole particular issue, that make this one sole particular issue important by proxy.

So if you are looking at it and only seeing the sole issue itself, then you are the one at fault here, not the ones discussing it.

As for "growing up", perhaps that is better directed at people who talk to their imaginary friend, or who do not know how and when to keep their own personal hobby out of the workplace? Because they are the only ones I am seeing here requiring any maturation process. There are few people I can think of, other than these religious here, who seem to suffer with this inability to keep personal hobbies in personal time, and out of their work place and work time.



Again I have to ask, where DO you people get all this straw? That is not the position that many, if anyone, on this thread is suggesting or espousing. Keeping peoples personal hobby out of the workplace...... especially a public state workplace......... is not "oppression".

Not allowing them to partake of their personal hobby of choice at any time, ever, even in their own personal downtime...... now THAT would be oppression and you would........ for once......... have a valid basis for playing the "persecution card" that you are so fond of.

Like I said way back nozz it's time to suck it up! The 10% that you belong to have again failed to bully the other 90% into ye're way of thinking.

RobertKK

tomwaterford wrote: »

What has any of this to do with ramming religion down people's throat in the dail

Because the state also does this in regards to the public but people are happy to accept it, as it is time off work or education.

You don't have a choice but to accept the public holiday linked to the birth and death of Jesus, or the man who credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.

It is the state acknowledging religion and implementing days off work for all, including those who aren't Christian.

We always hear about the separation of religion and the state...but when it has benefits, oh the silence...

lawred2

RobertKK wrote: »

This is the post in question.

Are you going to continue to argue the state has public holidays for pagan festivals?

I never argued that.

RobertKK wrote: »

I said people were hypocrites about the prayer and standing up for it, while the same people complaining have no problem accepting days off work for public holidays for the birth and death of Jesus, and our national day being named after a man who is credited with bringing Christianity to Ireland.

These are national public holidays. Why you expect people to complain about time off work is mind boggling.

RobertKK wrote: »

Where is the outrage over the state giving special days off to mark big Christian events.

Why are you expecting people to be outraged about public holidays?

RobertKK wrote: »

They were not made public holidays for pagan events.

Never said nor claimed that they were.

RobertKK wrote: »

This is the hypocrisy that exists and which is uncomfortable for the people who like to complain, but happy to take something that is linked to Christianity if it benefits them.

It exists in your own head.

Either way - none of this is remotely relevant to the topic at hand which is the forced observance, under threat of penalty, to an individual sect's prayer in our national parliament.

Whatever way you play it - this is the workings of a theocracy.