Overholding consequences

crashadder

Overall, I would recommend a visit to threshold, they operate a free service and can look into the validity of the notice served.[/QUOTE]

Thanks a mil. I will defo visit them but event if the notice is invalid because of a wording, cant they just serve a valid one ? What exactly do i gain from that ?

4ensic15

crashadder wrote: »

Overall, I would recommend a visit to threshold, they operate a free service and can look into the validity of the notice served.

Thanks a mil. I will defo visit them but event if the notice is invalid because of a wording, cant they just serve a valid one ? What exactly do i gain from that ?[/QUOTE]

Delay. You challenge the notice, the tenancy continues. They have to start again if you win. Either way it slows things down. Invariably the RTB will order the deposit to be returned when the tenant vacates.

davo10

4ensic15 wrote: »

Thanks a mil. I will defo visit them but event if the notice is invalid because of a wording, cant they just serve a valid one ? What exactly do i gain from that ?

Delay. You challenge the notice, the tenancy continues. They have to start again if you win. Either way it slows things down. Invariably the RTB will order the deposit to be returned when the tenant vacates.[/quote]

What about the reference? Do you think the op will be able to rent again?

Sometimes it helps to see the wood for the trees.

4ensic15

davo10 wrote: »

Delay. You challenge the notice, the tenancy continues. They have to start again if you win. Either way it slows things down. Invariably the RTB will order the deposit to be returned when the tenant vacates.

What about the reference? Do you think the op will be able to rent again?

Sometimes it helps to see the wood from the trees.[/QUOTE]

The o/p will not be getting a reference no matter what happens. His landlord is in receivership.

crashadder

The o/p will not be getting a reference no matter what happens. His landlord is in receivership.

How do you mean ?

padd b1975

I would seriously consider changing my travel plans if I was you.
You really don't want to find yourself in the worst case scenario of having such a narrow window for finding alternative accommodation coupled with possibly a less than perfect reference from your last landlord.

Ms Doubtfire1

crashadder wrote: »

Hi there,
No i am not a Landlord who is dealing with a non paying tenant. I am a tenant who just got served a notice of termination. Me and my room mate has signed a lease agreement about a year ago for this property and have been paying the rent on time ever since.(will continue to do so even theres a dispute). The notice as far as i can tell is perfectly valid and we now have 35 days to find a new accommodation which is fine. We sent an email to the agent asking for more time and help with finding new accommodation but we haven't heard from him yet. The reason we are asking for an additional month is simply because we will both be traveling the rest of May and will have about a week if not less to find a new place. We also asked for a reference letter but haven't received it either. My question is assuming we couldn't get any response from the agent/landlord or they turned our request down how bad would it be if we didnt vacate on time. I know how the system works here that the rules are in favor of the tenants but i would never do that to anyone. just a side note the apartment is in a better condition than the time we moved in. they haven't fixed anything. we took care of them ourselves. I am pretty damn sure we won't receive our deposit back too as we have paid it to the former landlord.

Woah...this thread is confusing.

1) they cannot terminate a fixed lease before termination date of the lease
2) open a case with the RTB - as your LL who got the deposit is now in receivership, you need to ensure you get your deposit back- the tenancy board can help with that.
3) sit tight until you hear from the board - go for adjuration, not mediation -you need a binding decision and something that can be enforced
4) no, you won't get a LL reference as the LL is in receivership. you can however proof that with the right documents.If the LL is a company, receivership can be looked up in courts.That should help

5) don't over hold as such - but once you have opened a dispute case with the RTB you are legally entitled to stay in the property (but do pay your rent)

crashadder

Woah...this thread is confusing.


4) no, you won't get a LL reference as the LL is in receivership. you can however proof that with the right documents.If the LL is a company, receivership can be looked up in courts.That should help

Thanks for your response. But i don't think i understand what "LL is in receivership" actually means.

Ms Doubtfire1

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

crashadder

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

sorry i am not really familiar with these terms. Yes thats what happened(i guess). we were 4 months into the lease and one day received a letter saying that the receiver has changed and that they are the ones we needed to pay the rent to. There were a lot of ambiguity at that time but we ended up complying and paying the rent to the new receiver.(landlord didnt have a clue about the new receiver asked us to hold off on paying the rent ) They didnt carry out their duties (repair etc) and we never discussed deposit. last month we received a letter from a party who claimed to have aquired our furniture and fittings and asked us to contact them if we want to keep them :-) Its been nothing but pain for us.

Ms Doubtfire1

so who did you pay the deposit to? the LL or the first receiver? and do you ahve a receipt/proof that you paid the deposit to them?
A letter from a party that bought the furniture and fittings of a house you are renting furnished? geez if I had to deal with that receiver he/she would be in front of the RTB so fast you couldn't say '***'

crashadder

so who did you pay the deposit to? the LL or the first receiver? and do you ahve a receipt/proof that you paid the deposit to them?
A letter from a party that bought the furniture and fittings of a house you are renting furnished? geez if I had to deal with that receiver he/she would be in front of the RTB so fast you couldn't say '***'

We payed the deposit to the agent of the landlord and its stated in the contract. We didnt sign a new contract with the new receiver.

Ms Doubtfire1

crashadder wrote: »

so who did you pay the deposit to? the LL or the first receiver? and do you ahve a receipt/proof that you paid the deposit to them?
A letter from a party that bought the furniture and fittings of a house you are renting furnished? geez if I had to deal with that receiver he/she would be in front of the RTB so fast you couldn't say '***'

We payed the deposit to the agent of the landlord and its stated in the contract. We didnt sign a new contract with the new receiver.

ok - RTB and fast.

crashadder

So i will need to file a dispute but what will i basically appeal ?

btw the letter we received for the furniture and fittings is this one :-)

we have purchased the entire furniture and fittings of your apartment we have been in touch with x (receiver over property)
but they have not engaged with us
we now wish to advise you of our intention to collect our goods and hereby give you 14 day notice of same
we are also prepared to offer you the opportunity to enter a Rental agreement with us for the furniture and fittings
Please revert to us within 7 days.

Ms Doubtfire1

lol. Tell them you are renting furnished and can not surrender any of the furnishings or fittings unless instructed to do so by the owner of the apartment. You can't hand out what's not your - it would be enabling theft.

Ms Doubtfire1

you appeal the notice. ( you can't receive a notice form someone you have no contract with) you complain the obligations of the Ll were not adhered to. receivers are usually acting on behalf of a bank or a large company.They are probably trying to get you out so i'd make their life miserable - you need your deposit back. if you want more advice, pm me.:-)

davo10

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

you appeal the notice. ( you can't receive a notice form someone you have no contract with) you complain the obligations of the Ll were not adhered to. receivers are usually acting on behalf of a bank or a large company.They are probably trying to get you out so i'd make their life miserable - you need your deposit back. if you want more advice, pm me.:-)

The tenancy is uneffected by the change of ownership, the ops fixed term lease still applies so the op does have a contract with the new property owner.

4ensic15

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

Receivership and bankruptcy are completely different. A receiver can appointed under a mortgage which is in default. The owner may well be solvent. Neither the original landlord or the receiver will bother giving the o/p a reference. The o/p needs proper advice and not from threshold or citizens advice.

crashadder

Receivership and bankruptcy are completely different. A receiver can appointed under a mortgage which is in default. The owner may well be solvent. Neither the original landlord or the receiver will bother giving the o/p a reference. The o/p needs proper advice and not from threshold or citizens advice.

what is the big deal about giving a lousy letter anyway ? If they want me gone they better be writing it .

4ensic15

crashadder wrote: »

what is the big deal about giving a lousy letter anyway ? If they want me gone they better be writing it .

Why, what will you do if they tell you to go jump?

crashadder

Why, what will you do if they tell you to go jump?

I guess i will start by filing a dispute. The lease ends on June 1st , the notice of termination wants me out on June 9th.

GGTrek

4ensic15 wrote: »

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

you said you have given the deposit to the first Landlord (LL) who is now in receivership. (i.e. bankrupt).correct? or am i confused with another thread?

Receivership and bankruptcy are completely different. A receiver can appointed under a mortgage which is in default. The owner may well be solvent. Neither the original landlord or the receiver will bother giving the o/p a reference. The o/p needs proper advice and not from threshold or citizens advice.

Could not agree more to this suggestion, as the OP story was explained with different posts, there are so many wrongs made to the OP by the receiver, his agent and the original landlord that it beggars belief. The most ludicrous one is the guy who actually wants to rent him again the furniture already in the OP's dwelling :D Are these people for real?

With the kind of ridiculous people the OP is dealing with, in my opinion the OP has two separate avenues to follow:

a) the legal one as suggested by some posters with usual nonchalance (they risk nothing after all), but the OP needs proper solicitor advice before running on this avenue and not the wrong advice that Threshold usually provides, Threshold will just say: "go to RTB, the notice looks wrong", this kind of advice costed real money to one of my previous tenants, since counterclaims and money awards made by RTB are a possibility if the landlord/receiver can prove that delay of sale caused financial damages to him in addition the receiver might have the legal muscle to defend the termination notice and make a successful counterclaim. I can't believe my tax money goes to fund such a dysfunctional organization like Threshold. For example since the OP fixed term lease only terminates on 1st of June 2017, then issuance of termination notice only should be on 2nd of June at the earliest and counting of 35 days should start on 3rd of June with earliest legal termination date on 8th of July (it could be the 7th, but clever landlords always add one day more to be on safe side), the guy harassing the OP for furniture is indirectly sent by the receiver which could be a breach of section 14 of the RTA causing monetary damages awarded to the OP, ...
On the other side the reason written on the termination notice for Sale is exactly the correct one (unlike some other uninformed poster stated):
https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/landlord-intends-to-sell-the-dwelling.pdf?sfvrsn=2
the reason is not written in plain English because last year a (not so) "brilliant" High court judge called Mr Baker through his interpretation in the judgement Hennessy vs PRTB (http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2016/H174.html) complicated even more the already overcomplicated and badly written RTA in the case of a termination notice for sale, which ultimately means that if the notice is found to be correct by RTB adjudicator and receiver can prove in a counter-claim that the delay in the sale due to you overholding caused him financial damage, you are risking real money (like a previous smart-ass tenant of mine who went to the RTB to get back his full deposit following Threshold advice and left the adjudication owing me almost twice the amount of the deposit)

b) the OP to me sounds very reasonable: he wants the harassment to stop, he wants one month more in order to find alternative accommodation, wants his deposit back since he caused no damage and a reference since he has always paid his rent and kept the property in the best way he could. The suggestion of the registered letter provided at the beginning of this thread explaining everything that the receiver is doing wrong and that the OP is willing to negotiate exit date as long as the receiver performs on his reasonable request. I do not see why a receiver cannot write a reference letter in order to avoid legal proceedings, I am not sure about the legal situation of the deposit, if the receiver by taking over the property is responsible for the old landlord obligations.

4ensic15

crashadder wrote: »

I guess i will start by filing a dispute. The lease ends on June 1st , the notice of termination wants me out on June 9th.

Not giving a reference is not grounds for a dispute. No landlord is obliged to give a reference. You need proper advice.

GGTrek

I also made an error in my previous post, since on 1st of June you will reach 1 year of tenancy, the notice period will need to be of 42 days, so even more time. RTB adjudicators do not like notices given while a fixed term lease is still running, first the lease needs to expire and then the notice can be served (however this is not law, just RTB interpretation that could be reversed)

crashadder

Not giving a reference is not grounds for a dispute. No landlord is obliged to give a reference. You need proper advice.

i know it isnt. I meant serving before the lease expiration and all other stuff.
to be more specific with what we have gone through over the last year ;
- My roommates room is 2-3 degrees colder than the rest of the apartment because of the broken window glass they didn't fix. We had an agreement on this before moving in.
- Agent said the apartment will be professionally cleaned before we move in and guess what it wasn't. We paid the cleaning
- Agent said they were going to replace the matresses in both bedrooms because they were in awful condition. but never did. We ended up paying 400e each because we developed back pain and had no choice but to take care of it.
- Agent said he was going to replace the broken hoover but never did. We bought a new one.
These are the things we have detected before moving in. we have pictures and emails sent to both receivers.

So the property is in a better condition compared to the time we first saw it.
We setup standing order for rent and never bounced. We had to deal with stupid stuff almost every month. When we got served last week we simply asked for 1 more month and reference letter. hell we even offered 20% raise . :-)
If they decide to tell us to jump after all well i will legally fight just for fun.

davindub

GGTrek wrote: »

a) the legal one as suggested by some posters with usual nonchalance (they risk nothing after all), but the OP needs proper solicitor advice before running on this avenue and not the wrong advice that Threshold usually provides, Threshold will just say: "go to RTB, the notice looks wrong", this kind of advice costed real money to one of my previous tenants, since counterclaims and money awards made by RTB are a possibility if the landlord/receiver can prove that delay of sale caused financial damages to him in addition the receiver might have the legal muscle to defend the termination notice and make a successful counterclaim. I can't believe my tax money goes to fund such a dysfunctional organization like Threshold. For example since the OP fixed term lease only terminates on 1st of June 2017, then issuance of termination notice only should be on 2nd of June at the earliest and counting of 35 days should start on 3rd of June with earliest legal termination date on 8th of July (it could be the 7th, but clever landlords always add one day more to be on safe side), the guy harassing the OP for furniture is indirectly sent by the receiver which could be a breach of section 14 of the RTA causing monetary damages awarded to the OP, ...
On the other side the reason written on the termination notice for Sale is exactly the correct one (unlike some other uninformed poster stated):
https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/landlord-intends-to-sell-the-dwelling.pdf?sfvrsn=2
the reason is not written in plain English because last year a (not so) "brilliant" High court judge called Mr Baker through his interpretation in the judgement Hennessy vs PRTB (http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2016/H174.html) complicated even more the already overcomplicated and badly written RTA in the case of a termination notice for sale, which ultimately means that if the notice is found to be correct by RTB adjudicator and receiver can prove in a counter-claim that the delay in the sale due to you overholding caused him financial damage, you are risking real money (like a previous smart-ass tenant of mine who went to the RTB to get back his full deposit following Threshold advice and left the adjudication owing me almost twice the amount of the deposit)

Threshold have solicitors you know? One sits on the board.

It has never been or will be a case where a tenant will be awarded damages for using the RTB where the tenant believes they have a case. You validate this view stating you brought a counterclaim against a tenant? The Hennessy case has nothing to do with pursuing a tenant, it contains important comments that clarifies the RTA intent to sell clause, it is not the fault of the judge that you cannot understand it.

The notice is not the same as the one you linked, nor is a notice on the RTB website the only correct document to deliver notice. I believe I was the "uninformed poster" you mentioned who questioned the validity of the notice?, I did so not because of the words alone but the intent as to why they were added. I believe you have misinformed yourself again or are deliberately furthering your bias against tenants, the RTB, Threshold by presenting an environment where tenants are punished by the RTB for taking cases.

davindub

GGTrek wrote: »

I also made an error in my previous post, since on 1st of June you will reach 1 year of tenancy, the notice period will need to be of 42 days, so even more time. RTB adjudicators do not like notices given while a fixed term lease is still running, first the lease needs to expire and then the notice can be served (however this is not law, just RTB interpretation that could be reversed)

No. The fixed term lease cannot be terminated (unless there is a suitable break clause) but you can give notice to end the Part 4 tenancy so long as the effect date is after the fixed term expiry unless the contact has a term stating that notice cannot be served.

The personal preference of adjudicators has not been legislated for as of yet.

wordofwarning

OP receivers are not regulated in this state. In fact you don't need formal qualification to be one. I could decide to be one tomorrow, be hand a property from a bank to 'look after the interests of the mortgage holder...'. In reality, what a receiver does is look after the interests of the bank

AFAIK under the amendments in the new RTA act, your deposit is protected and has to be paid for by the receiver.

GGTrek

davindub wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

a) the legal one as suggested by some posters with usual nonchalance (they risk nothing after all), but the OP needs proper solicitor advice before running on this avenue and not the wrong advice that Threshold usually provides, Threshold will just say: "go to RTB, the notice looks wrong", this kind of advice costed real money to one of my previous tenants, since counterclaims and money awards made by RTB are a possibility if the landlord/receiver can prove that delay of sale caused financial damages to him in addition the receiver might have the legal muscle to defend the termination notice and make a successful counterclaim. I can't believe my tax money goes to fund such a dysfunctional organization like Threshold. For example since the OP fixed term lease only terminates on 1st of June 2017, then issuance of termination notice only should be on 2nd of June at the earliest and counting of 35 days should start on 3rd of June with earliest legal termination date on 8th of July (it could be the 7th, but clever landlords always add one day more to be on safe side), the guy harassing the OP for furniture is indirectly sent by the receiver which could be a breach of section 14 of the RTA causing monetary damages awarded to the OP, ...
On the other side the reason written on the termination notice for Sale is exactly the correct one (unlike some other uninformed poster stated):
https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/landlord-intends-to-sell-the-dwelling.pdf?sfvrsn=2
the reason is not written in plain English because last year a (not so) "brilliant" High court judge called Mr Baker through his interpretation in the judgement Hennessy vs PRTB (http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2016/H174.html) complicated even more the already overcomplicated and badly written RTA in the case of a termination notice for sale, which ultimately means that if the notice is found to be correct by RTB adjudicator and receiver can prove in a counter-claim that the delay in the sale due to you overholding caused him financial damage, you are risking real money (like a previous smart-ass tenant of mine who went to the RTB to get back his full deposit following Threshold advice and left the adjudication owing me almost twice the amount of the deposit)

Threshold have solicitors you know? One sits on the board.

It has never been or will be a case where a tenant will be awarded damages for using the RTB where the tenant believes they have a case. You validate this view stating you brought a counterclaim against a tenant? The Hennessy case has nothing to do with pursuing a tenant, it contains important comments that clarifies the RTA intent to sell clause, it is not the fault of the judge that you cannot understand it.

The notice is not the same as the one you linked, nor is a notice on the RTB website the only correct document to deliver notice. I believe I was the "uninformed poster" you mentioned who questioned the validity of the notice?, I did so not because of the words alone but the intent as to why they were added. I believe you have misinformed yourself again or are deliberately furthering your bias against tenants, the RTB, Threshold by presenting an environment where tenants are punished by the RTB for taking cases.

You are still providing opinions on this board with no practical experience of RTB adjudications and misinterpreting my posts. RTB does award monetary damages against tenants on counterclaims and if tenants works he is at risk that award will be enforced you just cannot know all the details of his case from a board post, the OP should ask for professional legal advice before starting any legal action: there are (low) risks even for tenants when undertaking an RTB adjudicaton. Going to RTB and overholding a correct notice of termination is not without risks. Hennessy case is what caused the RTB to change the sample notices of termination for sale, RTB adjudicator analysis of intent will not produce any favourable result for the OP if the receiver is actually selling the property to recover money on the contrary it could be detrimental to the OP case. The OP asked what are the risks of him overholding: I tried to provide an answer.

Tenants that go to Threshold will usually receive the bog standard reply that I posted above from a Threshold front line staff who either has no legal qualifications or that has not got the time to analyse in depth the tenants case. I mean one of these Threshold staff called me once to try to mediate with a tenant of mine. He was clearly out of his depth and provided plenty of wrong advice to my tenant: he could not distinguish between a warning notice and a termination notice! The wrong advice and the RTB adjudication that ensued costed the tenant his tenancy. So please avoid suggesting that Threshold provides quality legal advice to Tenants: they might have some professionals among their ranks but they surely are not providing great support to front line staff: so I stand to my opinion that it is a dysfunctional organization with very good political connections to maintain itself with taxpayers money like many other NGOs.

I shall stop here.

Answering another poster: some receivers are professional firms of accountants who work in partnership with solicitors you know. It doesn't look like this is the case in the OP situation since the receiver seems to behave very unprofessionally to say the least.

davindub

GGTrek wrote: »

You are still providing opinions on this board with no practical experience of RTB adjudications and misinterpreting my posts. RTB does award monetary damages against tenants on counterclaims and if tenants works he is at risk that award will be enforced you just cannot know all the details of his case from a board post, the OP should ask for professional legal advice before starting any legal action: there are (low) risks even for tenants when undertaking an RTB adjudicaton. Going to RTB and overholding a correct notice of termination is not without risks. Hennessy case is what caused the RTB to change the sample notices of termination for sale, RTB adjudicator analysis of intent will not produce any favourable result for the OP if the receiver is actually selling the property to recover money on the contrary it could be detrimental to the OP case. The OP asked what are the risks of him overholding: I tried to provide an answer.

Tenants that go to Threshold will usually receive the bog standard reply that I posted above from a Threshold front line staff who either has no legal qualifications or that has not got the time to analyse in depth the tenants case. I mean one of these Threshold staff called me once to try to mediate with a tenant of mine. He was clearly out of his depth and provided plenty of wrong advice to my tenant: he could not distinguish between a warning notice and a termination notice! The wrong advice and the RTB adjudication that ensued costed the tenant his tenancy. So please avoid suggesting that Threshold provides quality legal advice to Tenants: they might have some professionals among their ranks but they surely are not providing great support to front line staff: so I stand to my opinion that it is a dysfunctional organization with very good political connections to maintain itself with taxpayers money like many other NGOs.

I shall stop here.

Answering another poster: some receivers are professional firms of accountants who work in partnership with solicitors you know. It doesn't look like this is the case in the OP situation since the receiver seems to behave very unprofessionally to say the least.

No i don't think I did misinterpreted what you wrote, the words are still there. I actually have been through the RTB process, but that irrelevant to understanding the process, it's similar to suggesting a criminal who evades justice is a good candidate to seek advice on.

A solicitor is not in any way required (pity) for the RTB, in fact solicitors have little experience in the RTB and will not be there for adjudication, but even so its not difficult to get the correct position by reading the legislation, Threshold can fulfill this role without cost based on information provided to them.

That phone call you received was an attempt to deal with the case on behalf of a person vulnerable to homelessness, they obviously gave up, I would too if you attempted to serve that nonsense you fabricated above. But remember you built your reputation when you can't attract decent tenants. to be involved so much with the RTB, Threshold etc as you claim, its either you or your tenants.

Threshold is you will be happy to know a charity, it's in their charter to prevent homelessness http://www.threshold.ie/donate/.