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Notice, deposit...

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  • 04-05-2017 7:28pm
    #1
    andreoilin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    In a somewhat sticky situation, some advice would be appreciated.

    Signed a 1 year lease in September 2016. Received a letter from LL the other day stating that she needs the house for her sister and partner, and that we would have to move out on or before June 23rd. I didn't initially know you could legally break a lease for this reason, but I contacted the relevant bodies and turns out, you can.

    So, instead of waiting until June 23rd, we've been looking on Daft for a new place and been to a few viewings. We figure there's no point in leaving it until the last minute when there are suitable properties to let right now. We need our deposit back from our current house to place a deposit on a new place, and our LL has said that it's not an issue if we need the inspection done before we leave, rather than after. But she also said that we must give 1 month notice if we are leaving before June 23rd.

    So, a couple of things. Does the fact that she gave us notice first mean anything in terms of the notice we must give if moving out earlier? Would we lose our deposit if we moved out without finishing the 1 month notice? If we give 1 month notice, there's a possibility that there won't be anything suitable available for us then, whereas there is now.

    Sorry for the long winded story!


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    #2
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    andreoilin wrote: »
    Hi all,

    In a somewhat sticky situation, some advice would be appreciated.

    Signed a 1 year lease in September 2016. Received a letter from LL the other day stating that she needs the house for her sister and partner, and that we would have to move out on or before June 23rd. I didn't initially know you could legally break a lease for this reason, but I contacted the relevant bodies and turns out, you can.

    So, instead of waiting until June 23rd, we've been looking on Daft for a new place and been to a few viewings. We figure there's no point in leaving it until the last minute when there are suitable properties to let right now. We need our deposit back from our current house to place a deposit on a new place, and our LL has said that it's not an issue if we need the inspection done before we leave, rather than after. But she also said that we must give 1 month notice if we are leaving before June 23rd.

    So, a couple of things. Does the fact that she gave us notice first mean anything in terms of the notice we must give if moving out earlier? Would we lose our deposit if we moved out without finishing the 1 month notice? If we give 1 month notice, there's a possibility that there won't be anything suitable available for us then, whereas there is now.

    Sorry for the long winded story!

    Im a ll, and have a few questions.. Did you sign a fixed term lease for 1 year. This can be important if you want to stay at the very least a year.

    Generally speaking you would need to give months notice, however depending on your relationship with your ll and considering the fact she wants it back ourself, i would have given some flexibility especially considering the fact she is arguing over the bones 2 or 3 weeks.


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    #3
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    The LL has stated "on or before".....not "between". She has given the notice, so it would be ridiculous for her to expect you to give a month of notice. Go back and ask the relevant body, but I suspect you are free to go at any time, considering she is the one breaking the lease and putting you out.

    having cake and eating it comes to mind here.


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    #4
    andreoilin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭andreoilin


    Fol20 wrote: »
    I'm a ll, and have a few questions.. Did you sign a fixed term lease for 1 year. This can be important if you want to stay at the very least a year.

    Yes, we signed a fixed term lease for 1 year.


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    #5
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    andreoilin wrote: »
    I didn't initially know you could legally break a lease for this reason, but I contacted the relevant bodies and turns out, you can.

    No you can't end a fixed term lease for this reason. You can end a part 4 tenancy for this reason, that's something different.
    andreoilin wrote: »
    Yes, we signed a fixed term lease for 1 year.

    Check the lease to see if there's a break clause. If there isn't your landlord cannot rely on Part 4 to terminate for occupancy by a family member. It would be incredibly unusual to have a break clause for anything other than the sale of the property.

    The lease gives you more rights than part 4 alone, it sounds like your landlord is forgetting that.

    Although that won't change the fact your lease isn't going to be renewed it does put you in a stronger bargaining position to negotiate notice periods and return of deposit if you decide to accommodate the landlords request to terminate the lease early.


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    #6
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Graham wrote: »
    The lease gives you more rights than part 4 alone, it sounds like your landlord is forgetting that.

    Although that won't change the fact your lease isn't going to be renewed it does put you in a stronger bargaining position to negotiate notice periods and return of deposit if you decide to accommodate the landlords request to terminate the lease early.

    But, you don't need to renew your lease. You attain Part IV rights. In your first year, the lease contract gives you additional rights, above Part IV, but after that, your Part IV kicks in.

    The landlord must wait until your fixed term lease is up, and can only then serve notice that they want it for a family member, but must do this correctly. Check the RTB website for the exact way it must be done.


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    #7
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Paulw wrote: »
    But, you don't need to renew your lease. You attain Part IV rights

    You're right of course, I was more suggesting the landlord is likely to end the tenancy at the expiration of the current lease.


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    #8
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    So, to break it down, the tenant can dig in her heels and insist on staying the full lease term unless the LL is flexible and fair.


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    #9
    andreoilin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭andreoilin


    The only break clause option in our contract is the sale of the house.

    Sorry to sound stupid, but when does it become a part 4 tenancy?


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    #10
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    andreoilin wrote: »
    The only break clause option in our contract is the sale of the house.

    Sorry to sound stupid, but when does it become a part 4 tenancy?

    You gain part 4 rights after 6 months BUT this does not change the additional rights granted by your fixed-term lease.


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    #11
    andreoilin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭andreoilin


    Graham wrote: »
    You gain part 4 rights after 6 months BUT this does not change the additional rights granted by your fixed-term lease.

    Oh ok. We've been here almost 8 months, so am I understanding that we have Part 4 rights in addition to the rights of the fixed-term lease? And does the fact that it is now also a Part 4 mean she could terminate it the reason she has?


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    #12
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    andreoilin wrote: »
    Oh ok. We've been here almost 8 months, so am I understanding that we have Part 4 rights in addition to the rights of the fixed-term lease?

    Yes, you have part 4 + fixed term lease
    andreoilin wrote: »
    And does the fact that it is now also a Part 4 mean she could terminate it the reason she has?

    No.

    Your lease gives you additional security on top of the part 4.

    So you get part 4 rights AND the additional security a 12 month lease gives you.

    Your landlord effectively gave away some of their entitlements when they granted you a fixed term lease.


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    #13
    andreoilin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭andreoilin


    Thanks Graham :)

    Seems like I need to bring this to her attention (maybe she's just genuinely unaware it's illegal?), and if that fails to get a result, lodge a dispute with the PRTB!


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    #14
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    andreoilin wrote: »
    Thanks Graham :)

    Seems like I need to bring this to her attention (maybe she's just genuinely unaware it's illegal?), and if that fails to get a result, lodge a dispute with the PRTB!

    This link may be useful for your landlord:

    https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

    Particularly the section that begins:

    Fixed Term Tenancies
    A landlord can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where the tenant has been in breach of his or her obligations. Accordingly, a landlord cannot rely on the provisions of Section 34, to terminate a fixed term tenancy during the fixed term.


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