Car insurance 2017: 237% increase in annual premium

Allinall

......... wrote: »

I knew it wouldn't new long before a panicing shill turned up.

I'm not your amigo / pal / bud.

Car insurance has always cost more in Ireland compared to other countries in western europe. I've lost count of the excuses from the giant PMPA scam, to the no MOT claim, to claims about provisional drivers, to needing a PIAB, to the Quinn insurance bail out, to ten year old cars are a problem, to the courts are scamming insurane companies claim. Every time a goverment addresses these claims, the insurance industry finds some other excuse to jack up premiums above the western European average.

The law society have rubbished the insurance industry's recent spin.

"There is little, if any, evidence that the level of awards being made to victims of motor accidents can account for the recent, alarming increases in motor insurance premiums” says Murphy.
“The vast majority of claims are handled by the injuries board or are settled directly by insurers. No costs are payable in those circumstances except by the consumer. The tiny proportion where proceedings are issued are subject to ever-decreasing levels of costs by a stringent taxing regime shortly to be strengthened by even more transparent and onerous legal costs requirements under the new Act,” he says.
“The Law Society’s view is reflected in a departmental briefing document for Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe. It said, ‘It appears motor insurers are now imposing higher premium rates to return to profitability or to boost profitability after a number of years of insurers competing for market share with prices driven down accordingly and possible underwriting losses in some cases.’”

“It is worth noting that in his contribution to the Dáil debate on this subject on 20 April 2016, the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, referred to a letter he had written to the governor of the Central Bank of Ireland seeking a report on the insurance sector.
“In reply he was told by the Central Bank that until recently insurance firms enjoyed a prolonged period of reasonable investment return on the asset side of their balance sheets. This income stream provided firms with the scope to compete aggressively on price. The Central Bank proceeded to advise the Minister that ‘recent premium increases are designed to restore core underwriting profitability.’”

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/the-rise-and-rise-of-unaffordable-motor-insurance-1.2734118

I'll ask you the same?

Have you examined insurance companies accounts to see what profit margins they are making, and established how much they could reduce premiums by whilst ensuring they stay in business?

.........

Allinall wrote: »

I'll ask you the same?

Have you examined insurance companies accounts to see what profit margins they are making, and established how much they could reduce premiums by whilst ensuring they stay in business?

Why ? How do I examine your private books, and are we supposed to believe you are not capable of massaging books like every other business ?

The public, government, law society, central bank and media are all onto you though.

Allinall

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Almost sure there was research released recently which said the "claims" are not the reason for the drastic rise in premiums, but rather it's simply a case of insurance companies wishing to return to previous higher profits. I'm not going looking for it but it was widely reported in media a few months ago. Hence why I said common knowledge.

What level of "higher profits"?

When did insurance companies ever make "high" profits?

Allinall

......... wrote: »

Why ? are we supposed to believe you are not capable of massaging books like every other business ?

The government and law society and media are onto you though.

I'll take that as a no, then.

Also,. I'm not an auditor.

Outlaw Pete

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

:eek: A year ago that rule was 15 years! How in the name of Christ can they consider a 10 year old car to be a significant risk. This crap just proves them to be total chancers, making it up, and moving premiums up, as they go along.

There is no rule, it's just some insurances companies were taking that stance two years back, their online forms were refusing to quote them. 15 year old cars and many still won't. It's madness as cars from 2002 can be as safe, if nor safer, than a five year car when it comes to crumple zones, air bags etc. Personally I think most insurance companies now just want to quote newer cars as they know they are the cars owners will tend to go fully comp on, whereas owners like me just want third party fire & theft as the car is not worth much (on the market at least - is to their owners of course).

Liam McPoyle

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's common knowledge that insurance companies in Ireland have recently been making false claims about claim culture being the main reason for rising premiums for the majority of drivers.

Common knowledge, I presume you mean that government report?

Wasn't that just including claims information from the injuries board?

That's a relatively small sample of the claims made, the injuries board does not automatically deal with claims so using it as any kind of definitive proof of anything is short sighted in the extreme.

SeanW

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There is no rule, it's just some insurances companies were taking that stance two years back, their online forms were refusing to quote them. 15 year old cars and many still won't. It's madness as cars from 2002 can be as safe, if nor safer, than a five year car when it comes to crumple zones, air bags etc. Personally I think most insurance companies now just want to quote newer cars as they know they are the cars owners will tend to go fully comp on, whereas owners like me just want third party fire & theft as the car is not worth much (on the market at least - is to their owners of course).

Yeah, what's up with that? I used to be able to get TPO insurance, Third Party Only, but it doesn't seem to be offered much now. What happened?

Glenster

Beyondgone wrote: »

Oddball.

Good luck with that. Everyone elses went up. They're grooming you to appear in their next TV campaign.

mine went down too.

I turned 30 though.

I've obviously never had a claim.

Billy86

jackofalltrades wrote: »

325 a year!!! :eek: Christ that's low.
What did you do, take the engine out of your car and tell them you'd be pushing it around.

I worked in insurance for a bit in 2011-2013, for a full licence held for a few years, 5+ years no claims, penalty points/etc, low enough risk area and reasonably modest car (say a Corolla or something along those lines) you could get people €255 quite regularly on full comp. without any funny business like giving them really high excesses etc.

Quite a lot has changed since then, I see...

Billy86

wordofwarning wrote: »

Do you not think €325 is ridiculously low? As they say with investment, previous performance does not act as an indicator for future performance. If you rear end a car tomorrow and drive on a slippy icy road into a wall. That €325 you have been paying for a decade won't cover that cost. Insurance at €325 is ridiculous for the level of risk involved. Look at household insurance where there is no risk of a dodgy claim such as whiplash, it is a solid structure and yet a premium for a basic house can be €500+

If insurance is such the cash cow in Ireland. Why isnt every German and French insurer jumping at the opportunity to make these massive profits? As it is not that profitable

Excuse me while I throw myself down my neighbours staircase.

Wheeliebin30

There was a report showing claims are not the reason.

Insurance companies love people thinking this is the reason.

This, a lettter in yesterday's Irish Times, seems like a fair proposal on several levels. Could it work?

Rising cost of motor insurance:

The rising cost of motor insurance
Sat, May 6, 2017, 00:09

Sir, – Donal McGrath makes several important points about insurance on older cars and correctly asserts that “the Government forces all drivers to have insurance cover” (May 4th). One solution might be to abolish insurance certificates per se and provide a national, single-payer motoring insurance fund.
This would provide for every motorist’s third-party, fire and theft cover and would be paid for by an insurance levy on petrol and diesel.
A government’s vulnerability to the ballot box and freedom from the profit motive would, in theory, have a cooling effect on the rate levied. Motorists who spend more time on the road would pay more, which seems fair and equitable. And being collected at the fuel pumps, the levy would be virtually impossible to evade.
Any motorist who wishes to upgrade their cover to comprehensive could still engage one of the existing private underwriters if they gauge the product to be value for money.
And if road tax was also merged into this new levy, gardaí ­could spend more time dealing with actual crimes rather than shining torches at windscreens. – Yours, etc,

Does any country have something similar?

SeanW

New Zealand puts the cost of insurance into a petrol tax, Japan rolls tax, insurance and the equivalent of NCT testing fees into a single fee, the Shaken (Jidōsha Kensa Tōrokuseido). For private motorists, this is every 2 years.

Donal55

I'm lead to believe the same applies in Australia with basic third party applied through fuel levies and the motorist can increase to fully comp etc himself.

Seems a pretty decent concept. That's why it could never happen here.

scamalert

also it would be hard to collect from those owning EV,or lpg converted cars.and given they collect already massively on fuel and road tax i doubt they would bother doing anything that requires actual work.

Sue Pa Key Pa

For all those people asking for competition to come in and sort out "Irish" insurance companies, ask yourself the following questions

Where do you think Zurich, AXA, Allianz, Aviva, RSA, Liberty etc come from?
If they are in the business of thieving from policyholders, why have they chosen the smallest market in Europe to do it?
If insurers in Ireland "pull prices out of their arse" why have these European corporations only employ such buffoons in Ireland?
Why doesn't one insurer break from the cartel and undercut every competitor by €100 and mop up every policy if huge profits are being earned?

Mint Sauce

Up just under 40% from 500 to just under 700 for fully comp. One company want 1200 for just 3rd party fire and theft.

Really think the insurance companies and the car dealers are in it together when they either try and price you out of it, or refuse to insure older cars.

.........

Deleted User wrote: »

This, a lettter in yesterday's Irish Times, seems like a fair proposal on several levels. Could it work?

Rising cost of motor insurance:

Does any country have something similar?

Of course it would work . . . thing is the cartel in Ireland and their sponsored politicians will never allow it.

maudgonner

I don't see how a fuel levy would take risk factors into account though? It would result in drivers with clean driving records suffering in relation to those who may have had multiple claims against them.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Really think the insurance companies and the car dealers are in it together when they either try and price you out of it, or refuse to insure older cars.

The secret meeting between 20 competing motor insurers and 20 competing main car dealers, held on Dollymount Strand every 2nd Tuesday, is to try and regulate the size of Disc holders at the manufacturing stage, nothing else.

.........

maudgonner wrote: »

I don't see how a fuel levy would take risk factors into account though? It would result in drivers with clean driving records suffering in relation to those who may have had multiple claims against them.

but they are already suffering, whereas no one, including the insurance companies, are doing anything about the fraudsters, because it's not in their interest to do so, as they can reap in far more levying the vast majority of honest policy holders.

ED E

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

There was a report showing claims are not the reason.

Insurance companies love people thinking this is the reason.

The published claims. The insurance companies dont release their figures for pre settlements.

Sue Pa Key Pa

maudgonner wrote: »

I don't see how a fuel levy would take risk factors into account though? It would result in drivers with clean driving records suffering in relation to those who may have had multiple claims against them.

While a levy on fuel sounds like a feasible plan, it is still dependant on the claim payments. The theory gets tossed about as if it will be 1c per litre. What if the chickens come home to roost and the Government say that because of 'unforeseen claim figures' the levy on fuel is being raised by €1 per litre?

The ONLY way to bring down premiums is to reduce claim costs, to allow insurers earn reasonable profits as businesses and entice competitors in to a stable market

colm_mcm

SeanW wrote: »

New Zealand puts the cost of insurance into a petrol tax, Japan rolls tax, insurance and the equivalent of NCT testing fees into a single fee, the Shaken (Jidōsha Kensa Tōrokuseido). For private motorists, this is every 2 years.

With thevShaken, They also make it uneconomical to keep a car over a few years old though, to boost car production.

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

...Where do you think Zurich, AXA, Allianz, Aviva, RSA, Liberty etc come from?

If they are in the business of thieving from policyholders, why have they chosen the smallest market in Europe to do it?
If insurers in Ireland "pull prices out of their arse" why have these European corporations only employ such buffoons in Ireland?
Why doesn't one insurer break from the cartel and undercut every competitor by €100 and mop up every policy if huge profits are being earned?

No idea. Why are in the market if they don't make money. Every other company cuts and runs.

Why in the UK do you know a cars insurance group rating, whereas in Ireland its a complete lottery what the quote will be. Then you go through 'ah go on, go on on , like Mrs Doyle and it with much effort and pantomime it drops to something within reason. (Some of the time).

None of it makes any sense.

andekwarhola

jackofalltrades wrote: »

325 a year!!! :eek: Christ that's low.
What did you do, take the engine out of your car and tell them you'd be pushing it around.

Mine is only 480 (fully comp) this year. Was only 400 last year. Car is a 1.4 though and not that old.

osarusan

SeanW wrote: »

Japan rolls tax, insurance and the equivalent of NCT testing fees into a single fee, the Shaken (Jidōsha Kensa Tōrokuseido). For private motorists, this is every 2 years.

No, the insurance part of Shaken is very very basic, and motorists overwhelmingly take out private car insurance also.

Private insurance was, if I remember correctly, about a third of what I pay here though.

Sue Pa Key Pa

beauf wrote: »

Why in the UK do you know a cars insurance group rating, whereas in Ireland its a complete lottery what the quote will be. Then you go through 'ah go on, go on on , like Mrs Doyle and it with much effort and pantomime it drops to something within reason. (Some of the time).

None of it makes any sense.

Don't get me wrong, Insurers are their own worst enemy when it comes to transparency. However, as in the UK, the car insurance grouping is only one of dozens of rating factors such as age, licence, address, occupation, vehicle colour (yes) and bonus

HugsiePie

My car which cost 1k to buy costs 5k to insure so its just sitting in the back of the yard rusting away............Im pretty certain Ill never drive the way things are

jackofalltrades

Deleted User wrote: »

This, a lettter in yesterday's Irish Times, seems like a fair proposal on several levels. Could it work?

Rising cost of motor insurance:

Does any country have something similar?

Unless the UK did the same people would just drive across the border and buy fuel there.
You'd also have to get rid of agricultural diesel and make sure people don't start trying to make their own LPG pumps.
That and EV's would make it even more complicated.

Glenster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This, a lettter in yesterday's Irish Times, seems like a fair proposal on several levels. Could it work?

Rising cost of motor insurance:



Does any country have something similar?

seems like a scam to make good drivers pay for bad drivers.

Dave_The_Sheep

What I might recommend, was I someone who did that, would be to ... lie. Your current insurer will knows it's a saturated market and will likely match the quote, or come damn close.

Obviously that's doesn't mean the system isn't f*cked, but it might help somewhat.

.........

Glenster wrote: »

seems like a scam to make good drivers pay for bad drivers.

That's exactly how the current system we have works along with some fat profiteering on top.

Glenster

......... wrote: »

That's exactly how the current system we have works along with some fat profiteering on top.

not really though.

my mam pays like 240 bills because she never claimed keeps the car in the garage has a new car and is a middle aged woman.

if we all paid at the pumps shed be paying the same as an 18 year old dirt bag with 7 points in a 1999 dihatsu charade.

That's madness.

bluefinger

The thing I resent more than the annual price increase is the poxy merry go round of phone calls and online quotes you have to endure to end up with a quote that's probably a bit more than your previous year. can take a day or two of your life that you're not getting back.

.........

Glenster wrote: »

not really though.

my mam pays like 240 bills because she never claimed keeps the car in the garage has a new car and is a middle aged woman.

if we all paid at the pumps shed be paying the same as an 18 year old dirt bag with 7 points in a 1999 dihatsu charade.

That's madness.

wait till she goes for renewal, then you'll see it in full flow. The insurance company will do nothing about the dirtbag, because off the back of him, insurance companies now get to charge your mother much more than they used to, using him as the handy excuse.

Junkyard Tom

The sooner cars are automated the better. All those rear-endings that attract whiplash claims will be a thing of the past because cars will automatically predict and brake accordingly.

.........

bluefinger wrote: »

The thing I resent more than the annual price increase is the poxy merry go round of phone calls and online quotes you have to endure to end up with a quote that's probably a bit more than your previous year. can take a day or two of your life that you're not getting back.

they make the process as difficult as possible now, and more so every year, in order to try and discourage you from shopping around or moving insurer.
, while charging loyal customers more for 'the privilege' of staying with them.

Billy86

Glenster wrote: »

not really though.

my mam pays like 240 bills because she never claimed keeps the car in the garage has a new car and is a middle aged woman.

if we all paid at the pumps shed be paying the same as an 18 year old dirt bag with 7 points in a 1999 dihatsu charade.

That's madness.

Doesn't matter that she's a woman (and before the gender equality thing, around 47-53 year old women paid more than men - only be 1-3% if memory serves but still... unexpected when I heard it!). The funny thing with that gender equality act on insurance is that rather than mens premiums going down by roughly 50% of the difference and womens up by roughly 50% (assuming there is very close the same number of men driving as there are women), what happened instead was that womens seemed to jump by 80% or more while mens stayed static, in the under 25 demographic most notably. Like I said, funny how that worked out...

Cookie_Monster

SeanW wrote: »

New Zealand puts the cost of insurance into a petrol tax

only basic third party and medical cover, but you can't claim damages over here. And despite this petrol is still cheaper, about 1.15 euro at the moment and fully comp is also really cheap.

350e for me and wife on an 06 2l legacy

Canis Lupus

Donal55 wrote: »

I'm lead to believe the same applies in Australia with basic third party applied through fuel levies and the motorist can increase to fully comp etc himself.

Seems a pretty decent concept. That's why it could never happen here.

I'm not too sure of the exact details but here in QLD you pay for it yourself. It's called rego (the Australians will shorten anything) so whilst I don't actually know the specifics to me it's essentially the equivalent of motor tax and mandatory 3rd party insurance.

So for my motorbike it's $113 reg fee, $56 traffic improvement fee (I've actually no idea what that is ) and then $127 for the mandatory 3rd party insurance. The mandatory insurance is provided by like... 4 different providers but the fee is the same so it's all the same who you chose.

The above is for 12 months. I also pay an additional $35ish a month to a separate insurance company for full comp etc.

I wasn't aware of any fuel levy here in Australia that covers insurance costs but I could be wrong. I was of the impression the rest of the states do the same as QLD.

Sue Pa Key Pa

......... wrote: »

they make the process as difficult as possible now, and more so every year, in order to try and discourage you from shopping around or moving insurer.
, while charging loyal customers more for 'the privilege' of staying with them.

How exactly are they now making it more difficult to move? Your insurer is obliged to send out the NCB certificate with your renewal notice. If you want to move insurers, you never have to speak to them from that point onwards

Glenster

......... wrote: »

wait till she goes for renewal, then you'll see it in full flow. The insurance company will do nothing about the dirtbag, because off the back of him, insurance companies now get to charge your mother much more than they used to, using him as the handy excuse.

she renewed it in April.

Agricola

I fail to see the logic in spiraling claims being the reason for these increases. If there is a compo culture in Ireland, which there certainly is, then that culture has predated these ludacris price hikes by many years. Where were all these whiplash claims in the mid 00's when people were getting fully comp cover for €250.

I thought the reason for this was the an EU ruling obliged insurance companies to always have a certain percentage of their total insurable losses available at all times, in order to curb the phenomenon of underselling. Now they are all basically stockpiling cash using the easiest method available to them, hiking premiums into the clouds??

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, Insurers are their own worst enemy when it comes to transparency. However, as in the UK, the car insurance grouping is only one of dozens of rating factors such as age, licence, address, occupation, vehicle colour (yes) and bonus

If the criteria were fixed, then the premiums would be consistent. But dramatic increases and decreases over a couple of phone calls, suggests there some else at play here. Premiums in the UK are consistent. In ireland they are not.

I can remember getting quotes of uninsurable, 700 punts, and free in the space of a day from the same insurer for a named driver. This on a 90bhp diesel saloon, probably the most dull and slowest car you could buy at the time.

Imagine every time you asked the price of a pint, you got €20, €8 or €1 depending which barman you asked and even if you ask the same barman every 5 mins. Because that's what happens with insurance in Ireland.

Sue Pa Key Pa

beauf wrote:

Imagine every time you asked the price of a pint, you got €20, €8 or €1 depending which barman you asked and even if you ask the same barman every 5 mins. Because that's what happens with insurance in Ireland.

You can get charged vastly different prices for the same pint, depending on the location. The reason for that is because every bar has different costs. The advantage the bar has over the insurer is that he knows his costs at the time he sells you the pint. The insurer only knows his cost when the year is over.

beauf

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You can get charged vastly different prices for the same pint, depending on the location. The reason for that is because every bar has different costs. The advantage the bar has over the insurer is that he knows his costs at the time he sells you the pint. The insurer only knows his cost when the year is over.

You don't get a charged a different price every 5 mins. In the same bar, same barman.

.........

Glenster wrote: »

she renewed it in April.

well if it's true, tell her it's probably one of the lowest current insurance prices in Ireland.

Glenster

......... wrote: »

well if it's true, tell her it's probably one of the lowest current insurance prices in Ireland.

Will do.

I think it dramatically falls if you don't have accidents or points.

Sue Pa Key Pa

beauf wrote: »

You don't get a charged a different price every 5 mins. In the same bar, same barman.

I think that is a teeny weeny bit of an exaggeration. Insurers have the price they would like to get for a target risk. They will have a margin of wriggle room rather than lose a risk. For the less attractive risk, there is less discount available. Everything is negotiable

Have you never gone in to an electrical shop and asked for a discount off the sticker price on a TV or washing machine?